Look, publically asking why handwraps aren't fixed EXCEPT Viscous?

[Gunga]

Wrong. I have decades of experience programming, for fun and for money. And obviously I've made some mistakes, because if I hadn't, it would mean I was wasting time working on projects below my ability.


That's an utter non sequitur. It has NOTHNG to do with what's been written here, and is instead pulled fully from your imagination as an excuse to hurl some insults.

Nah. He's right, really. If you have decades of programming experience (screenshot please ) than you would understand what is happening here, and stop flaming a decent company. I have experience managing nationwide projects, which affords me the wisdom to say, "**** happens, let's get it fixed. Next problem."

If you have a technical problem to describe, than be specific, detail your experience and be helpful in the process of fixing it. Flaming the company is just more that the techs have to read, and get ****ed off over, to understand what is wrong.

[Twerpp]

Sorry your handwraps are broken guys I dont know jack about coding but I'm guessing because it's the first new playable class in this game there were bound to be some issues.

[Angelus_dead]

Nah. He's right, really. If you have decades of programming experience (screenshot please ) than you would understand what is happening here, and stop flaming a decent company.

That accusation bears no relationship to my posts in this thread, or any thread.

I have experience managing nationwide projects, which affords me the wisdom to say, "**** happens, let's get it fixed. Next problem."

Smart people will take some time after a problem to stop and investigate what was done wrong, and to see how they could've done it better.

If you have a technical problem to describe, than be specific, detail your experience and be helpful in the process of fixing it.

I described the problem in sufficient technical detail that any borderline-competent system designer could understand.

[Muirtach]

Sorry your handwraps are broken guys I dont know jack about coding but I'm guessing because it's the first new playable class in this game there were bound to be some issues.

Hey you! Stop being logical. This is the DDO forums we don't take kindly to then type of things around here.

[Gunga]

That accusation bears no relationship to my posts in this thread, or any thread.

Yes, actually, it does.

Smart people will take some time after a problem to stop and investigate what was done wrong, and to see how they could've done it better.

Smart people are working hard so that you can repeat yourself over and over here.

I described the problem in sufficient technical detail that any borderline-competent system designer could understand.

Which is why we are all wondering what compels you to continue to trash the company after you've described your problem in detail.

[ArkoHighStar]

That accusation bears no relationship to my posts in this thread, or any thread.


Smart people will take some time after a problem to stop and investigate what was done wrong, and to see how they could've done it better.


I described the problem in sufficient technical detail that any borderline-competent system designer could understand.

No the tone of your posts are soley designed to show how Turbine screwed up, and if they had designed it your way they would be better off. I too have decades of programming experience as both a programmer, a programming lead, and a Systems Integration Architect. And one thing I have learned over the years is that second guessing others code without intimate knowledge of it inner workings and relationships to other systems is simply giving your opinion on how you would do something better and has no real bearing on how you are going to solve an issue working within the design and system restraints of an already existing system.

Any issue can be solved through a complete redesign, but it is not always the most cost or time effective way of doing anything, so you work with what you have.

I am sure Turbine has already gone through the excercise of saying "Yup we missed that in the design, ok lets fix it", they looked at the 2 issues vicious and everything else, and determined vicious could get a quick fix and be part of the scheduled patch, but all the other effects based on the design, will take longer and much more regresion testing and will be forthcoiming in a future release.

Second guessing the design at this point serves no real purpose, as it add no real value to the solution required to resolve the issue, unless your only solution is a complete redesign.

[Zaodon]

No the tone of your posts are soley designed to show how Turbine screwed up, and if they had designed it your way they would be better off. I too have decades of programming experience as both a programmer, a programming lead, and a Systems Integration Architect. And one thing I have learned over the years is that second guessing others code without intimate knowledge of it inner workings and relationships to other systems is simply giving your opinion on how you would do something better and has no real bearing on how you are going to solve an issue working within the design and system restraints of an already existing system.

Any issue can be solved through a complete redesign, but it is not always the most cost or time effective way of doing anything, so you work with what you have.

I am sure Turbine has already gone through the excercise of saying "Yup we missed that in the design, ok lets fix it", they looked at the 2 issues vicious and everything else, and determined vicious could get a quick fix and be part of the scheduled patch, but all the other effects based on the design, will take longer and much more regresion testing and will be forthcoiming in a future release.

Second guessing the design at this point serves no real purpose, as it add no real value to the solution required to resolve the issue, unless your only solution is a complete redesign.

And for the record, I think the bugs are not even remotely the issue.

Not to repeat myself (but.... I'm gonna repeat myself): The issue for me and others is that when Turbine evaluates bug/patch priorities, they are not giving enough consideration to issues that negatively impact players.

That's all.

[Gunga]

And for the record, I think the bugs are not even remotely the issue.

Not to repeat myself (but.... I'm gonna repeat myself): The issue for me and others is that when Turbine evaluates bug/patch priorities, they are not giving enough consideration to issues that negatively impact players.

That's all.

Maybe Turbine is run by aliens who will drive us all insane by way of viscious handwraps, and then eat us. Then they won't have to fix ghost touch.

[MysticTheurge]

Second guessing the design at this point serves no real purpose, as it add no real value to the solution required to resolve the issue, unless your only solution is a complete redesign.

It could be, even at this point, that a complete redesign is a better solution to the existing (and future) problem(s) than simply attempting to repeatedly patch past mistakes.

[Angelus_dead]

It could be, even at this point, that a complete redesign is a better solution to the existing (and future) problem(s) than simply attempting to repeatedly patch past mistakes.

Actually, the problem looks more like their handwrap implementation was too much of a redesign.

Instead of using the existing code and treating handwraps as just another weapon (with some special features like being invisible in the 3d world and giving 1x str damage even though it occupies two body slots), they created a whole complicated thing where handwraps are a non-weapon item that fits in the same body slot as a weapon, and which buffs your character with magic weapon effects that then apply to your unarmed attacks.

That's a whole lot of indirection to reach the same place.

It means there's a lot of editing, a lot of effort, and a lot of places where something can go wrong. For example, I'm told that Maladroit works on handwraps but Weakening doesn't. Since those effects are only minor variations on each other, the fact that one is buggy and the other isn't indicates insufficient centralization of code.

[szalkerous]

To quote a very famous developer,

"Anyone who thinks a piece of software is perfect, is a fool."

[ArkoHighStar]

It could be, even at this point, that a complete redesign is a better solution to the existing (and future) problem(s) than simply attempting to repeatedly patch past mistakes.

That maybe the case but that is Turbine's call not ours, as we have no idea what the scope of the problem is. Attacking the design serves no purpose though as you have no idea why certain design choices were made in the first place.

It is very easy to look at a design choice and say hey look at what this broke, but it is much harder to say what this design choice fixed or kept from breaking because those things are functioning as you expect them to.

To Zaedon's point, it does appear that way sometimes, but there are just as many little bugs that help us out that get don't get fixed right away either as Eladrin pointed out. Tempest AC is a perfect example, many of the so called exploits took quite a while to get fixed and went through several patches/releases before being addressed. The mod 5 relics took a while and it was 2 to 3 weeks before they made the items bind so that they could not be traded. Traps on elite quests were broken for a long time thus negating the need for a rogue or someone with rogue skills, or taking a chance on dying or getting massive damage and having to waste mana on heals.

[croger1520033]

The Vicious handwrap mutation, essentially, was trying to damage the person wielding the monk instead of the monk itself. That's a pretty safe and easy fix, solved by changing some minor targeting information.

Handwraps operate very differently from normal weapons - instead of hitting a creature with the handwraps themselves (like a normal weapon), the handwraps instead add effects to your unarmed attacks. This is pretty clear when you inspect a monk wearing handwraps. Normal vicious weapons damage the thing they hit and their wielder on-hit. Monk handwraps have to give the monk an ability that damages the thing they hit and themselves on-hit.

The fix that Tharagrim's made for handwraps bypassing DR is a significantly more complicated change than the change necessary to make Vicious operate as expected, and even without much investigation I can think of a few things that it could possibly break - the natural Ki Strikes (Magic, Lawful, Adamantine) of a monk for one. That fix required more time in QA to verify.

Contrary to popular belief, we prefer to have patches fix more problems than they cause, and don't order things to do by "do they hurt the player". (Tempest constant +2 AC bonus, Monk metamagic, and Marilith misbehavior are three bugs I can think of off the top of my head that help the players but haven't made it to live either.) This was just a bug fix.


Risk rates very highly in those management decisions. One of the very first things asked is "how confident do you feel about this fix?"

If it makes people feel better to think that I'm out to get them, uh... Good for them, I guess.

Maybe you can let us now where in the process you are for fixes regarding alchemical bonuses, Abbot, bee pollination, and othe stuff??

[captain1z]

The Vicious handwrap mutation, essentially, was trying to damage the person wielding the monk instead of the monk itself. That's a pretty safe and easy fix, solved by changing some minor targeting information.

Handwraps operate very differently from normal weapons - instead of hitting a creature with the handwraps themselves (like a normal weapon), the handwraps instead add effects to your unarmed attacks. This is pretty clear when you inspect a monk wearing handwraps. Normal vicious weapons damage the thing they hit and their wielder on-hit. Monk handwraps have to give the monk an ability that damages the thing they hit and themselves on-hit.

The fix that Tharagrim's made for handwraps bypassing DR is a significantly more complicated change than the change necessary to make Vicious operate as expected, and even without much investigation I can think of a few things that it could possibly break - the natural Ki Strikes (Magic, Lawful, Adamantine) of a monk for one. That fix required more time in QA to verify.

Contrary to popular belief, we prefer to have patches fix more problems than they cause, and don't order things to do by "do they hurt the player". (Tempest constant +2 AC bonus, Monk metamagic, and Marilith misbehavior are three bugs I can think of off the top of my head that help the players but haven't made it to live either.) This was just a bug fix.


Risk rates very highly in those management decisions. One of the very first things asked is "how confident do you feel about this fix?"

If it makes people feel better to think that I'm out to get them, uh... Good for them, I guess.

I think this is what most of us wanted to hear............... I can easily wrap my head around this explanation.

Thank You for communicating this.

[Aesop]

SAO I've got another set of Handwraps that aren't working...


+4 rr Halfling

they dun work

just thought I'd add it to the list...


maybe this bug is attached to rr

Aesop

[Aesop]

oh and since I'm being lazy and not reading the thread ... I'm getting weird DR on mobs that don't have DR... like Wraithes and Mephits vs my unarmed attacks


probably has been mentioned but hey

Aesop

[MysticTheurge]

I'm getting weird DR on mobs that don't have DR... like Wraithes and Mephits vs my unarmed attacks

Mephits have DR X/Magic, which is generally irrelevant in DDO since you're always using a magic weapon. But since handwraps aren't applying properly, that's probably what you're seeing.

Theoretically, Wraiths (and all other incorporeal creatures) should be completely immune to non-magical attacks. They may have implemented this as DR X/Magic as well.

[Milolyen]

Actually, the problem looks more like their handwrap implementation was too much of a redesign.

Instead of using the existing code and treating handwraps as just another weapon (with some special features like being invisible in the 3d world and giving 1x str damage even though it occupies two body slots), they created a whole complicated thing where handwraps are a non-weapon item that fits in the same body slot as a weapon, and which buffs your character with magic weapon effects that then apply to your unarmed attacks.

That's a whole lot of indirection to reach the same place.

It means there's a lot of editing, a lot of effort, and a lot of places where something can go wrong. For example, I'm told that Maladroit works on handwraps but Weakening doesn't. Since those effects are only minor variations on each other, the fact that one is buggy and the other isn't indicates insufficient centralization of code.

If you have been around that long then I am sure you have heard the saying "Why reinvent the wheel" which means (for anyone who does not know) why do something from scratch when you can just copy what has already been done and proven to work. I know in my company code gets reused all the time. I am sure the same goes for Turbine because you can see it in the various quests with the reuse of graphics (that 90% turn slope with a pool of water/acid/lava/ice at the base of the slope anyone?). If they felt they needed to "Reinvent the wheel" with the implementation of handwraps I am sure it was for a very good reason. We don't know the reasons because we don't know how their code is set up to begin with. You are just assuming they did it because it was a choice and not out of necessity. And you know what they say about assuming.

Milolyen

[Gornin]

Unfortunately, evidence points to A_D being correct, as this is my assessment also.

[Milolyen]

Unfortunately, evidence points to A_D being correct, as this is my assessment also.

ummm question .... WHAT evidence? Only "evidence" would be the programmers code and so unless you are a programmer for turbine I seriously doubt you have seen it. Anything else would be just "assuming" what is actually the problem. Sorry but "assuming" and "evidence" are two VERY different things ... show me a fact that shows A_D is correct then we can talk. Because from what I have read all it is is A_D trying to bash the programmers at Turbine.

Milolyen