Weekly Dev Activities 04/14/08

[Gratch]

well instead of tue why not do it friday?..would be great..

Like we have time to WDA argue/complain/congratulate/dream on the weekend. That's shroud grindin' time.

Plus now he's going to move it the Friday after the Tuesday.

[The_Phenx]

We understand it's hard work gimping all the rogues, and finding out new ways to nerf something that might help them.

Sigh...I'm usually quiet in here but this argument has gotten out of control. Why does everyone think every class should have the same dps, they aren't suposed to. One class is not inherantly weaker than another.. they are supposed to do different things. Should I complain about not being able to disarm traps or tumble with my fighter.

Casters are supposed to be gods in control of the elements.
Fighters are supposed to weapons masters.
Clerics are supposed to be healers and weilders of divine might
Paladins are champions of good and have the whole smite evil thing
Barbarians are supposed to be raging maniacs who kill everything and plunder it
AND Rouges are supposed to be scouts, masters of stealth, and able to sneak upon and one shot kill enemies aka assasins

I never remember reading/hearing about any assasin who would jump into the middle of the fray to use his assasin moves while dodging the fighters swings and taking shots from a giant ax hoping for a heal.. assassin lends itself to stealh, silent death etc... Hence... WAY OF THE ASSASIN.

You want it to be way of the holywood movie hitman.

If you make your voice heard I think you would be surprised how many people would be patient to wait the 15 secconds for you to sneak up on and one shot the orange named. Or drop the PITA enemy caster before the fight starts.

The problem isnt the game its the players... zerg style doesn't fit it. And its not under their control how we run through the game as fast as possible. Remember the days of cloudkill and solid fog, pulling mobs, sneaking around, sending the rouges in first to tell us whats going on?

I do. It was more of role playing instead of hurrying as fast as possible to get some more bad loot.

And I kinda miss it.

/rant off

[moorewr]

Dude...come out of the bitter barn and play in the hay.

hee hee

[MysticTheurge]

Should I complain about not being able to disarm traps or tumble with my fighter.

If you can't tumble with your fighter you really have no one to blame but yourself.

[gpk]

Why does everyone think every class should have the same dps, they aren't suposed to. One class is not inherantly weaker than another.. they are supposed to do different things.

It's not nearly as simple as that, short version: some glaring imbalances were introduced to the game which increased the gap between the classes to crazy levels and the game places more relative value on offense over all else; that led to the situation we are in now.

So instead of "nerfing" the imbalances (insert irony here) they decided to "boost" some others , but they're being awfully selective and uneven and unbalanced in the "boost" implementations and timeframes which just aggrivates the situation much more.

To say "everyone wants to be DPS kings" is totally unfair.

[The_Phenx]

If you can't tumble with your fighter you really have no one to blame but yourself.

Lol well think backflips... I'd really love to do backflips .

[The_Phenx]

It's not nearly as simple as that, short version: some glaring imbalances were introduced to the game which increased the gap between the classes to crazy levels and the game places more relative value on offense over all else; that led to the situation we are in now.

So instead of "nerfing" the imbalances (insert irony here) they decided to "boost" some others , but they're being awfully selective and uneven and unbalanced in the "boost" implementations and timeframes which just aggrivates the situation much more.

To say "everyone wants to be DPS kings" is totally unfair.

Aye I know all that, I've got several die hard friends who play rogues and we were discussing it last evening. It just seems very very silly to me to expect Way of the Assasin to function as a mele oriented skill. The description just doesn't intone what people are expecting out of it.

Seems folks just want a death strike.

And yes there are gaps, but its possible to overcome most of them. If you think about it my pure halfling fighter has gotten the shaft more than anyone. The nerfing of Fighters action boosts, the nerfing of halfling luck enhancements, loss of fighters dodge, the rediculous cost of fighters armor mastery, the loss of superior twf (from compendium at launch), the lack of any real enhancements or feats that give any bonus whatsoever to high level fighters, and the dreaded 5th attack.

The only good thing that has happened lately is shroud weapons, at least it helps.

Then you look at the rouges getting what I think is still a very cool enhancement and they are raising a stink beyond belief over it.

Think cool assasin people. Me personally I think the proper fix is to leave the sneaking portion as is, but make it work with throwing weapons. AND make the dc higher or at least use dex as a basis instead of int... I mean what theif has a max int....

Ehh how cool would it be to sneak into the shadows and throw a knife and instantly kill that irritating guy in running with the devils before he starts hopping all over hell like a goof.

Now thats an assasin.

Oh and while your at it how about a crit multiplier feat or double crit range enhancement for fighters?

[Thraxes]

Sigh...I'm usually quiet in here but this argument has gotten out of control. Why does everyone think every class should have the same dps, they aren't suposed to. One class is not inherantly weaker than another.. they are supposed to do different things. Should I complain about not being able to disarm traps or tumble with my fighter.

Casters are supposed to be gods in control of the elements.
Fighters are supposed to weapons masters.
Clerics are supposed to be healers and weilders of divine might
Paladins are champions of good and have the whole smite evil thing
Barbarians are supposed to be raging maniacs who kill everything and plunder it
AND Rouges are supposed to be scouts, masters of stealth, and able to sneak upon and one shot kill enemies aka assasins

I never remember reading/hearing about any assasin who would jump into the middle of the fray to use his assasin moves while dodging the fighters swings and taking shots from a giant ax hoping for a heal.. assassin lends itself to stealh, silent death etc... Hence... WAY OF THE ASSASIN.

You want it to be way of the holywood movie hitman.

If you make your voice heard I think you would be surprised how many people would be patient to wait the 15 secconds for you to sneak up on and one shot the orange named. Or drop the PITA enemy caster before the fight starts.

The problem isnt the game its the players... zerg style doesn't fit it. And its not under their control how we run through the game as fast as possible. Remember the days of cloudkill and solid fog, pulling mobs, sneaking around, sending the rouges in first to tell us whats going on?

I do. It was more of role playing instead of hurrying as fast as possible to get some more bad loot.

And I kinda miss it.

/rant off

your almost right you just missed a few parts,
name me one class that cant insta kill a mob? oh ROGUE
name me one quest that cant be completed due to lack of rogue? oh none
name me one of the green steel items that is soley geared to rogues? oh none
in pvp dose a rogue get to sneak? oh no
in forming a quest do you think "we cant do this if we dont have a rogue?" oh NO!!
is the rogue class broken or the players? oh the rogue class!
so add this to your statment about how rogues are not broken and how you miss the old days just rember every time you use your vorpal and every time you fod or you put up your LFM and you dont add rogue to your list becouse you need dps or casters or healers and that trap we can walk thru with out a problem ask your self is the game or players????

[Invalid_86]

Heh...isn't complaining about way of Assassin pointless? Technically assassins have to be evil, so none of our characters should even be able to be one!

[Borror0]

Technically assassins have to be evil, so none of our characters should even be able to be one!

I find this rule so stupid.

Assassin: "You're killing people from their back, so you're evil." Er... the rogue?
Bard: "You're free, you're chaotic!!" Er... great?
Barbarian: "You're getting angry to fight, so you're chaotic." So, the paladin never gets angry? I can even end my rage at will, not that chaotic to me...
Monk: "You must train all the time, so you must be lawful." Ok, so because I have to train all the time I respect law?

The only one I can see is paladin, as it goes more with the whole "holy knight" stereotype...

I hope they got rid of this in 4th E?

[Alavatar]

your almost right you just missed a few parts,
name me one class that cant insta kill a mob? oh ROGUE Rogues can instakill mobs just like any other melee class. Vorpals are on 20 and confirm the crit, Banishers, Smiters are on crit, Disruptor and Paralyzer is on hit. Just as good as any other melee class.
name me one quest that cant be completed due to lack of rogue? oh none To be fair, you don't NEED any specific class for any quest. They only thing that is NEEDED in some quests is specific attributes at or above a specific value.
name me one of the green steel items that is soley geared to rogues? oh none Name an item that is solely geared to any class.
in pvp dose a rogue get to sneak? oh no Whoopity do.
in forming a quest do you think "we cant do this if we dont have a rogue?" oh NO!! I often think "We don't need a caster" or "We don't need a cleric" or "We don't need a bard" or "We don't need a paladin". What's wrong with thinking "We don't need a rogue."?
is the rogue class broken or the players? oh the rogue class! I disagree. I think it is the players.
so add this to your statment about how rogues are not broken and how you miss the old days just rember every time you use your vorpal and every time you fod or you put up your LFM and you dont add rogue to your list becouse you need dps or casters or healers and that trap we can walk thru with out a problem ask your self is the game or players????

Responses above in this color. (I'm colorblind)

[Alavatar]

I find this rule so stupid.

Assassin: "You're killing people from their back, so you're evil." Er... the rogue?
Bard: "You're free, you're chaotic!!" Er... great?
Barbarian: "You're getting angry to fight, so you're chaotic." So, the paladin never gets angry? I can even end my rage at will, not that chaotic to me...
Monk: "You must train all the time, so you must be lawful." Ok, so because I have to train all the time I respect law?

The only one I can see is paladin, as it goes more with the whole "holy knight" stereotype...

I hope they got rid of this in 4th E?

Yes, they got rid of Alignments in 4th E.

I personally like Alignments, but disliked class Alignment requirements for all except the paladin.

[MysticTheurge]

Assassin: "You're killing people from their back, so you're evil." Er... the rogue?

An assassins abilities require a lack of respect for the lives of others, if not even a joy in taking said lives. This is evil.

Bard: "You're free, you're chaotic!!" Er... great?

The magic of a Bard is drawn from emotion and the regimented lifestyle of a Lawful person doesn't allow that emotion to run free, the way a Bard requires.

Barbarian: "You're getting angry to fight, so you're chaotic." So, the paladin never gets angry? I can even end my rage at will, not that chaotic to me...

A barbarian runs into the same problem.

Monk: "You must train all the time, so you must be lawful." Ok, so because I have to train all the time I respect law?

A monk, on the other hand, follows a rigorous program of training and and must devote herself to a specific, strict way of living. This is only possible for those who live the organized life of the Lawful.

It's funny, of all the class-based alignment requirements, I find the Paladin's to make the least amount of sense. I use Unearthed Arcana's alternate paladins so much that I've started to just consider them the norm. The idea that there are no paladins of darker or more chaotic religions always struck me as silly.

[Yaga_Nub]

An assassins abilities require a lack of respect for the lives of others, if not even a joy in taking said lives. This is evil.

Actually an assassin understands that his job can save lives and is willing to risk his life to prevent the death of others. Isn't that good?

I think you mean that accepting money in return for killing someone could be considered evil or it could just be considered as someone wanting to be rewarded for the risk they are taking.

[bobbryan2]

Sigh...I'm usually quiet in here but this argument has gotten out of control. Why does everyone think every class should have the same dps, they aren't suposed to. One class is not inherantly weaker than another.. they are supposed to do different things. Should I complain about not being able to disarm traps or tumble with my fighter.

Casters are supposed to be gods in control of the elements.
Fighters are supposed to weapons masters.
Clerics are supposed to be healers and weilders of divine might
Paladins are champions of good and have the whole smite evil thing
Barbarians are supposed to be raging maniacs who kill everything and plunder it
AND Rouges are supposed to be scouts, masters of stealth, and able to sneak upon and one shot kill enemies aka assasins

Well, sorta...

These are broad generalizations and don't take into account that each class is capable of filling plenty of different roles.

But tellingly, you make the statement that not all classes are masters of DPS. The irony, of course, is that rogues are the king of DPS.

You're talking about rogues from a pnp standpoint. DDO rogues are a different breed. Stealth isn't useful in the vast vast majority of situations. Traps are marginalized within dungeons... accounting for a low (maybe less than 5% time spent in a quest). The rest of the time, the rogue's job is incredible burst melee dps.

An assassin ability that is usable in melee combat makes sense in the grand scheme of what a melee rogue does in DDO.

Combat rogues fight and put out crazy dps.

[Angelus_dead]

An assassins abilities require a lack of respect for the lives of others, if not even a joy in taking said lives. This is evil.

Wrong and wrong. There is nothing about assassin abilities that requires any less respect for life than being a barabarian. In fact, the D&D Assassin has the ability to make a special paralyzing attack, which actually provides more non-lethal ways to resolve a combat situation than are available to generic rogues.

Yet normal rogues, without that ability, can be Lawful Good just fine.

There is no justification (besides circular reasoning) for a 8d6 Sneak Attack to be a good deed, but a DC 21 Death Attack to be inherently evil. In both cases, you come up behind someone and try to kill him with a knife.

[bobbryan2]

Well.. there's the requirement that you kill someone for no reason other than to become an assassin.

Which is a kill for selfish motives. Definately an evil act. Of course... whether or not an evil act is necessary for a greater good (undergoing training that will help you achieve some good goal)

I find most alignment puzzles can simply be explained away by whatever justifications you want.

I'm glad they're doing away with most alignments.

[Yaga_Nub]

I'm glad they're doing away with most alignments.

I still think there should be Good, Neutral, Evil but I don't disagree that it might be better without any alignments.

[The_Phenx]

your almost right you just missed a few parts,
name me one class that cant insta kill a mob? oh ROGUE
name me one quest that cant be completed due to lack of rogue? oh none
name me one of the green steel items that is soley geared to rogues? oh none
in pvp dose a rogue get to sneak? oh no
in forming a quest do you think "we cant do this if we dont have a rogue?" oh NO!!
is the rogue class broken or the players? oh the rogue class!
so add this to your statment about how rogues are not broken and how you miss the old days just rember every time you use your vorpal and every time you fod or you put up your LFM and you dont add rogue to your list becouse you need dps or casters or healers and that trap we can walk thru with out a problem ask your self is the game or players????

Valid points all. But
Rouges can use vorpals too for insta death
Pvp is screwed anyway Scorching Ray FTW!!! again... shure... how about again...
I always try and include a rouge... lil suckers to great dps heal and raise etc etc...
Vorpals they well... suck... preying for that 5% chance to kill a mob while doing no damage to it is silly
I prefer no to walk through traps.. they break my gear.
But then again I know I'm not the norm.

[Borror0]

An assassins abilities require a lack of respect for the lives of others, if not even a joy in taking said lives. This is evil.

The magic of a Bard is drawn from emotion and the regimented lifestyle of a Lawful person doesn't allow that emotion to run free, the way a Bard requires.

A barbarian runs into the same problem.

A monk, on the other hand, follows a rigorous program of training and and must devote herself to a specific, strict way of living. This is only possible for those who live the organized life of the Lawful.

Seeing alignments is so limited.

You know, nothing is black and white, at least my PnP characters aren't. You can have a rigorous but hate laws. You could be fine with what you impose yourself, but as soon as someone tells you what to do, they just can go to hell. An assasin can be driven by a greater goal that makes killing alright. Don't tell me it's Evil, that's what paladins do... they kill for their religion.

As for barbarian's emotions, yes he has to be close to his emotions to let his rage out, but he is also in control of himself, so it's not totally chaotic.

Characters can be inhabited by a sort of duality, some contradictions within the character. It's like saying every teacher are teaching for the same reason, or that all policemen are lawful, or that all poets are chaotic, that's not true. given the right background, I accept any alignment in my campaigns. What the books shows, to me, are stereotypes. Stereotypes = bad roleplaying (to me).

It's funny, of all the class-based alignment requirements, I find the Paladin's to make the least amount of sense. I use Unearthed Arcana's alternate paladins so much that I've started to just consider them the norm. The idea that there are no paladins of darker or more chaotic religions always struck me as silly.

I see your point and I agree, but really it's the only one that makes some kind of sense to... even though it's ver little.