Weekly Dev Activities 04/14/08

[Borror0]

Definately an evil act.

Yeah, like no one ever comited something awful in their lives...

[The_Phenx]

Well, sorta...

These are broad generalizations and don't take into account that each class is capable of filling plenty of different roles.

But tellingly, you make the statement that not all classes are masters of DPS. The irony, of course, is that rogues are the king of DPS.

You're talking about rogues from a pnp standpoint. DDO rogues are a different breed. Stealth isn't useful in the vast vast majority of situations. Traps are marginalized within dungeons... accounting for a low (maybe less than 5% time spent in a quest). The rest of the time, the rogue's job is incredible burst melee dps.

An assassin ability that is usable in melee combat makes sense in the grand scheme of what a melee rogue does in DDO.

Combat rogues fight and put out crazy dps.

Of course.. lol Im romanticizing

And stealth is useful in the game.. just not the way most folks play it. Look at Shadowmage's stuff

And yes I bow to most rouges sneak attack damage

When I first started playing ddo... My goal was to have a two weapon throwing (dual daggers) halfling rouge who could tumble flip and instakill monsters... ala the old school acrobatic assassin. Well since none of this is possible I play a fighter .

The flip side is one who sneaks around the back of a mob and cuts its throat... and well thats a sneak attack for massive damage.

Like I said they need to make way of the assassin work with throwing weapons for it to be valid. Within 30ft sneak attack range.

I mean who hasnt heard of a rouge tossing a dagger and killing something.

[bobbryan2]

Yeah, like no one ever comited something awful in their lives...

Well, that's kinda my point. Does one evil act, an evil alignment make?

I think it's more to set apart the assassin class as one who continues to kill for no other reason than selfish indulgence... but overall I find the alignment req to be odd. I might even buy any non-good.

I think it's set up the way it is to be primarily an NPC class and not to be used by players in general.

[Borror0]

Well, that's kinda my point.

I know, that was my way to say I agreed.

[Gratch]

An assassins abilities require a lack of respect for the lives of others, if not even a joy in taking said lives. This is evil.

I like the bad guy from the movie Serenity. An assassin definitely... but what alignment. He kills large numbers, but for the purpose of his mind's higher good. I'd almost put him at LN. Maybe LE. But he thinks he's serving the higher good... and does recant at the end. Though in his own words, he's not good.

Woot... kickin' the WDA to Joss Whedon land.

[Mockduck]

Okay, since I'm a Minnesota guy, I've gotta ask: What holiday is it in Massachusettes?

[Coldin]

Okay, since I'm a Minnesota guy, I've gotta ask: What holiday is it in Massachusettes?

Google + Wikipedia FTW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriots_Day

Patriots' Day (sometimes spelled Patriot's Day or Patriots Day) is a civic holiday in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and state of Maine (once part of Massachusetts), and a public school observance day in Wisconsin. Traditionally it was designated as April 19 in observance of the anniversary of the Battles of Lexington and Concord, the first battles of the American Revolutionary War.

[Borror0]

Google + Wikipedia FTW

But, but... wikis are an inaccurate source of information!!!111
(Not directed at you Coldin.)

[Coldin]

But, but... wikis are an inaccurate source of information!!!111
(Not directed at you Coldin.)

I think for the purposes of this though, we'll be fine trusting the wiki.

[Borror0]

I think for the purposes of this though, we'll be fine trusting the wiki.

But what if someone with malicious intend changed the information?

[Josh]

Wrong and wrong. There is nothing about assassin abilities that requires any less respect for life than being a barabarian. In fact, the D&D Assassin has the ability to make a special paralyzing attack, which actually provides more non-lethal ways to resolve a combat situation than are available to generic rogues.

Yet normal rogues, without that ability, can be Lawful Good just fine.

There is no justification (besides circular reasoning) for a 8d6 Sneak Attack to be a good deed, but a DC 21 Death Attack to be inherently evil. In both cases, you come up behind someone and try to kill him with a knife.

You missed the biggest thing about being an assassin:

The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins.

Unless you have some kind of pre-arranged deal with your DM, this is most certainly an evil act. Killing someone simily for money or (even worse) for no other reason than to do it is evil. Becoming a rogue has no such requirement unless your DM stipulates it.

Edit: looks like Bobyran2 beat me to the punch.

[MysticTheurge]

Seeing alignments is so limited.

You know, nothing is black and white, at least my PnP characters aren't.

Which is why I'm glad they're mostly dumping the system. All it was really good for was causing stupid and unnecessary debates over silly and illogical stuff on the internet. And we have plenty other ways to generate those.

You can have a rigorous but hate laws. You could be fine with what you impose yourself, but as soon as someone tells you what to do, they just can go to hell.

D&D 3.5 "Lawful" doesn't mean you like "The Law." It means you're ordered and consistent. Just because you don't like the local "No spitting on the sidewalk" law doesn't mean you're Chaotic.

An assasin can be driven by a greater goal that makes killing alright. Don't tell me it's Evil, that's what paladins do... they kill for their religion.

Again, this sort of debate is largely pointless, but Good v. Evil has more with how you go about doing it. In order to channel the power of a paladin you have to care about life etc. and try not to kill whenever possible. In order to channel the power of an assassin, you have to not care about life, etc. and have no qualms about killing people whenever you want to.

I'm not saying you shouldn't dump alignment restrictions if you want to in your games, but it's not as though there aren't some reasonable justifications for them. If you want to make them. Even if it just comes down to "It's Magic that requires you to have a certain mindset."

As for barbarian's emotions, yes he has to be close to his emotions to let his rage out, but he is also in control of himself, so it's not totally chaotic.

Right. It's just "Non-lawful."

[Aesop]

Like everything the whole all assassins are evil because they have no repect for life is a major sticky spot. First off who says? Second off I'm a little more circumspect when it comes to the whole life and death thing. Running through and Orphanage killing toddlers ... yes I'd call that pretty evil. Assassinating an evil dictator who is pushing the buttons that spell doom for the world... well that I'm pretty ok with and could even agree that that is for the greater good. Most everything in life is situational and while killing people isn't usually a good thing... sometimes they just need killin.

Aesop

[maddmatt70]

Weekly Development Activities
[*]NEW Intimidate now generates significantly greater threat against affected monsters when used.

This proposed change makes me very nervous and here is why - I dont want ddo to become another boring mmo. I played City of Heroes one weekend a couple of months ago and I was extremely bored. The tactics and options for each combat were the same. We would run up to a mob and let a specific class spam that games version of the intimidate and another character spam debuffs in every combat then the dps melee and the blasters I think killed everything. For every combat it was the same the monsters looked the same - in a word the tactics were very boring. If ddo makes intimidate overpowering - the tactics become the same for every combat and combat become incredibly boring. I am not sure I am even in favor of any change to intimidate at all.

[Borror0]

Which is why I'm glad they're mostly dumping the system. All it was really good for was causing stupid and unnecessary debates over silly and illogical stuff on the internet. And we have plenty other ways to generate those.

hehe, got the message.

If ddo makes intimidate overpowering - the tactics become the same for every combat and combat become incredibly boring. I am not sure I am even in favor of any change to intimidate at all.

No, this was a needed change. Just sort of a way for us to be able to keep aggro versus those DPS beasts.

Given how hard AC is to get, I don't see intimidate becoming that popular any tiem soon, even though all barbs should have it... but that's another topic. At worse, if Intimidate gets overpowered, it'll just make more noise for skill respec. But really, I doubt it'll happen.

[Gornin]

Like everything the whole all assassins are evil because they have no repect for life is a major sticky spot. First off who says? Second off I'm a little more circumspect when it comes to the whole life and death thing. Running through and Orphanage killing toddlers ... yes I'd call that pretty evil. Assassinating an evil dictator who is pushing the buttons that spell doom for the world... well that I'm pretty ok with and could even agree that that is for the greater good. Most everything in life is situational and while killing people isn't usually a good thing... sometimes they just need killin.

Aesop

Agreed. US Navy SEALs, Marine Force Recon, US Army Rangers and USAF LRRPs all take some sniper and CQC training to eliminate targets quietly and efficiently and most of their personality profiles would classify them as "good". It is what you are killing for makes the difference. In defense of those weaker, we efficiently send a single individual or small force that has been trained as "assassins" to eliminate a threat. Those who are tyrants would send out similar individuals to eliminate threat to their personal power.

I personally never had an issue with alignments in PnP, and I can see the argument for both sides. I say play it as you like, it is your game. I don't require many of the alignment restrictions myself. I usually just classify them as good, neutral or evil, with tendencies. Some things I do feel require some restriction, like the monk being lawful. That makes sense to me and that is the way I DM it. Same with Pallys'. If you are a holy warrior similar to a paladin with similar powers, but not of LG alignment, there is a different title. CG "pallys'" are called Holy Avengers in my setting.

[Angelus_dead]

You missed the biggest thing about being an assassin:

The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins.

No, I certainly didn't miss it.

I very carefully wrote that there is no assassin "ability" which is inherently evil. The requirements to enter a class are not abilities of that class.

[Angelus_dead]

Assassinating an evil dictator who is pushing the buttons that spell doom for the world... well that I'm pretty ok with and could even agree that that is for the greater good. Most everything in life is situational and while killing people isn't usually a good thing... sometimes they just need killin.

And notice that the game is not set in the real world. It's in the world of D&D, where there are entire races and cultures that are "Often Chaotic Evil" or even "Always Chaotic Evil".

Since evilness is a much more concrete and measurable concept in D&D, rampantly killing people can be much more acceptable, so long as you pick on someone who is evil.

I mean, the generic D&D setting even has Lawful Good deities dedicated to genocidal race war. But they get away with it- because the target race is "evil".

[Vormaerin]

Like everything the whole all assassins are evil because they have no repect for life is a major sticky spot. First off who says? Second off I'm a little more circumspect when it comes to the whole life and death thing. Running through and Orphanage killing toddlers ... yes I'd call that pretty evil. Assassinating an evil dictator who is pushing the buttons that spell doom for the world... well that I'm pretty ok with and could even agree that that is for the greater good. Most everything in life is situational and while killing people isn't usually a good thing... sometimes they just need killin.

Aesop

The thing that people overlook in this argument is that "Assassin" in D&D is a specific specialty class representing members of a particular kind of organization. It does not represent James Bond. He is not have levels in the "assassin" PrC. Anyone who kills for pay is an 'assassin', but not necessarily an "Assassin".

The Assassin specifically refers to members of an organization dedicated to killing for hire without any regard for the whys beyond that they are getting paid. That is blatantly an evil mindset in D&D. James Bond would have some other PrC.. Government Super Agent or something.

Might as well start arguing that not all wizards' guilds would give the exact benefits or have the exact requirements in the Guild Wizard PrC.. PrCs are explicitly designed to reflect particular narrow concepts or organizations better than the broader base classes.

If you aren't engaging in murder for hire, you aren't an "Assassin" in terms of that PrC.

[Thraxes]

Responses above in this color. (I'm colorblind)

first do you have a toon thats a rogue?
and is that toon capped
if any of the above is no then you should try and mabe you will know that you have slaped all rogues in the face

also yes rogues can use a vorpal but with every one useing them as soon as they get there backstab damage all agro will switch and they will get killed is why i said they cant use them and most, not all rogues are piercing speced now you can use a vorp but it will be very hard to get the vorp.