Melee capabale Sorc without sacrificing Cha or caster level?

[Gol]

Gol doesn't do Dex-based, and Gol doesn't do Drow.

How's this for a feat list?
Human Extend
1 Max
3 Empower
6 Toughness
9 Toughness
12 Focus: Necro
15 Greater Focus: Necro

[Angelus_dead]

Gol doesn't do Dex-based, and Gol doesn't do Drow.

And human sorcs don't fight well (toughness doesn't change that... and toughness is usually a mistake unless you're using it to qualify for enhancements). An elf or even halfling is better.

What do you hope to be to achieve in melee at low, medium or high level? For example, I have a generic human sorc who can bring down a individual Flesh Golems in melee if needed, but absolutely none of the build was focused in that direction, aside from starting with 10 str instead of 8.

[MrCow]

Feat order:
15 Improved Critical Pierce (or Toughness, Spell Pene, or Spell Focus, or Force of Personality...)

Pure arcanes have a BAB of 7 when they reach level 15, which is too low for improved critical.

[Gol]

I'll post more when I get back from lunch. Drow is not an option, end of story not debatable. I'll reconsider Dex-based, though.

[Angelus_dead]

I'll reconsider Dex-based, though.

So the question arises, what stat ordering were you thinking of?

Clearly charisma is highest. But is constitution next, or strength? To melee decently at low level you need points in strength or dex. At low level str is more helpful because it boosts damage, but at high level that benefit shrinks unless you continue working at it (such as by raising your strength at level ups, and taking feats like Power Attack). Dex attacking gives you the other bonuses of AC and reflex saves, but of course it costs a feat on Weapon Finesse. (Weapons with Finesse on them do exist, but they're just not efficient in terms of enhancement bonus)

[Gol]

What do you hope to be to achieve in melee at low, medium or high level? For example, I have a generic human sorc who can bring down a individual Flesh Golems in melee if needed, but absolutely none of the build was focused in that direction, aside from starting with 10 str instead of 8.

In addition to standard Caster stuff...

Low Level: significant melee contribution for enhanced solo capability
Mid Level: situational melee contribution
High Level: little-to-no melee contribution but 220+ HP and UMD

[Angelus_dead]

Low Level: significant melee contribution for enhanced solo capability
Mid Level: situational melee contribution
High Level: little-to-no melee contribution but 220+ HP and UMD

Well if your desired result is going to change so much over time, probably you should pick some melee feats at low level, and swap them out for metamagic later on.

For example, it will be a while before you have enough level 1 spell slots to blow one on Master's Touch. So why not take Exotic Proficiency Khopesh at level 1, and carry it along with a +1 Light Mithral Shield... use a Mage Armor wand too.

[Gol]

Well if your desired result is going to change so much over time, probably you should pick some melee feats at low level, and swap them out for metamagic later on.

For example, it will be a while before you have enough level 1 spell slots to blow one on Master's Touch. So why not take Exotic Proficiency Khopesh at level 1, and carry it along with a +1 Light Mithral Shield... use a Mage Armor wand too.

It's more of a "realistic" result than a desired one. I know what it takes to achieve significant melee contribution at higher level. I have such a Warforged Wizard. However, it becomes increasingly difficult to build a character that can bridge that gap between Caster BAB and Fighter BAB. I wanted to build a character that had the capacity to level up like a standard battle-caster, but didn't sacrifice much (if anything, really) for it in the endgame scenario.

If Human doesn't really offer me much other than the free feat (I can spend 1 point and a tome on intel to get to 10), I'm open to suggestions. Going Khopesh is viable; I have a stack of them for noob leveling. I'd prefer to avoid going Dex based, but if that's the best option, then it is what it is. It's just that so far, I've deleted every Dex-based character I've ever made before they got to level 5. I know I won't have enough AC for it to matter in the long run, so I'm not concerned with it at low levels either.

Thanks for the help.

[Angelus_dead]

It's more of a "realistic" result than a desired one. I know what it takes to achieve significant melee contribution at higher level. I have such a Warforged Wizard. However, it becomes increasingly difficult to build a character that can bridge that gap between Caster BAB and Fighter BAB.

As I suggested earlier, there is a simple and commonplace way to bridge your BAB: the Divine Power 5x clicky. Instantly doubles the BAB of any wizard or sorcerer. They are popular with all the battle-mages I know.

For best results, you want the DP clicky to fit in the same body slot as your strength enhancement item (Bracers of Ogre Power or whatever). That way you don't need to change back to anything after triggering DP, because the +6 str bonus from the DP spell will cover the strength bonus removed.

If Human doesn't really offer me much other than the free feat (I can spend 1 point and a tome on intel to get to 10), I'm open to suggestions.

Human offers +1 cha, making it easier to have a high DC, and it gives you a higher healing ratio (which means it takes fewer wand charges to keep you going). Plus the Human Versatility boost allows you to reliably cast Rez or Heal scrolls at a lower level than you otherwise could.

The big weakness of a human sorc compared to ANY other race is the saving throws. It's not much fun to be konked by Soundburst or pinned down by Greater Command. Every other race gets an enhancement series for some saves. Dwarves are particularly good at that, although by going dwarf you're now -4 charisma from a drow or human. (Indeed, human sorcs are really the characters to whom the new Force of Personality feat is most attractive, as it covers their Will save)

PS. I notice you have some questions about playing/building a sorc in general. You might want to research/ask them elsewhere, as the "melee capable" bit in this thread makes it seem to be on a more focused topic.

Going Khopesh is viable; I have a stack of them for noob leveling. I'd prefer to avoid going Dex based, but if that's the best option, then it is what it is.

Dex builds are only important if you want to be up there at level 16 with 45 AC killing golems with a smiting rapier. Even though it's possible to build sorcs to do that, it's not usually a good idea, because you can probably easily recruit other characters who can melee better than you.

[Wizzly_Bear]

imo, multiple toughness is a waste, as is double focus, esp on a sorc who has so few feats to grab. enlarge and spell pens would be better imo, and quicken is never a bad idea on any1 who casts spells.

Thank you, that's what I wanted to know. I've never played a "primary" caster and these are the things I don't know.

i was at school so i didnt expoundupon this, but since you profess noobishness in this area ill explain a bit more so you can understand why i said this.

1 toughness = generally ok, but really only desireable for dwarves/fighters/barbs for toughness enhancements. as sorcs get few feats, better to keep displ and stoneskin on yourself than use up 2 feat slots, though 1 is generally ok, esp if going human.

if you have maxed your spellcasting attribute then you generally dont need to worry about focusing in a specific area. this is only for those who feel the need to make sure every spell they cast lands, even on the most difficult enemies, despite having better options available to them. also, there are focus items you can get. this is doubly true for double focusing.

enlarge spell enables you to cast twice as far. this is esp useful for finger/pking enemies that you dont want to see you (beholders) and for casting touch spells from a distance (resistable dance and irrerisistable dance).

the new enemies have very high sr and grabbing a spell pen feat is a good idea. with a sorc though you may not want to invest in two, but one is advised, when you get to the new stuff.

quicken on wizzies and clerics is nice cuz you cast so much faster and it doesnt feel like the spell is being drawn from you through a low suction vacuum. however, the main benefit of this feat is that it enables you to cast spells without ANY possibility of interruption (other than death of course ). i repeat, you cannot be interrupted casting a spell if you have quicken activated. esp in the new content with the randomly aggroing devils this is a very useful feat.

As I suggested earlier, there is a simple and commonplace way to bridge your BAB: the Divine Power 5x clicky. Instantly doubles the BAB of any wizard or sorcerer. They are popular with all the battle-mages I know.

For best results, you want the DP clicky to fit in the same body slot as your strength enhancement item (Bracers of Ogre Power or whatever). That way you don't need to change back to anything after triggering DP, because the +6 str bonus from the DP spell will cover the strength bonus removed

qft, although you will need several if you expect to fight much as they only last 42 seconds per click.

[Shade]

My sorc started 8 strength, but he actually melees quite well now at lvl16.

You will not deal much dmg, but you will hit quite often using the right equipment and buffs.

Heck I even melee araetrikos on him just fine, I hit him pretty much everytime since I always take a bard hehe. Infact I melee everything in the raid and get my share of kills.. Often I use my dream spitter tell i get devils with a negative lvl so I have a better chance at PK/FoD'in them.
My stats aren't bad:
BAB8
+9 attack (Dreamspitter)
16 str ( 8 +2 tome, +4 item, +2 rage spell)

I do about 20 dmg a swing.. Not much, but a ton more then I can with any of my spells on the pit fiend since im fire/cold spec and he's got fire imunity, insane resists to cold, crazy reflex saves and evasion.

Really once your level10 or so you can melee just fine and hit everything. Turbine purposely lowered AC's across the board so that any class can contribute in melee. You just need a good weapon, I find the best weapon for a low str sorc by far is the shining cresents - as your proficient with it without wasting sp on masters touch, its got excellent base dmg, tendon slice ability, adamantine.. Perfect sorc melee wep.

And ofcourse the dreamspitter for any evil outsiders.

Low levelings meleeing is tough tho with low str, theres not much you can do effectively since your lacking proper defense buffs - stoneskin, displacement, haste, jump, grter hero to do it.. And most likely dont have a good weapon like the shining cresents.

[MrCow]

With what you want I think it just boils down to the following:

• 6 points at character creation into STR
• 6 points at character creation into CON
• 16 points at character creation into CHA
• If you have 32 point builds, 4 points into whatever you wish.

[Gol]

Thanks, Cow.

One more question... How bad of an idea is it to go Dwarf? And no, I won't switch to wizard. I definitely want a sorc. I assumed Human was the best non-drow option, but the extra HP could be nice.

[jkm]

your stats looks good, if you want less squishy swap the 2

feats
extend, maximize, empower, sf:umd, spell penetration/greater spell penetration - especially since you are planning on meleeing - with the shroud items you should be able to get heal scrolls without HV

[skraus1]

In addition to standard Caster stuff...

Low Level: significant melee contribution for enhanced solo capability
Mid Level: situational melee contribution
High Level: little-to-no melee contribution but 220+ HP and UMD

FYI, my 28 point sorc with a base con of 16 has 220 hp with no toughness feats. Dying is not much of an issue, but it happens, albeit significantly less than drow I team with. I would recommend a 10 or 12 int, 16 con, and max cha in a human casting sorc. You want umd, concentration, jump and a point or two of tumble. Haggle also can get handy if you've got points left over.

Human Extend
1 Max
3 Empower
6 Toughness
9 Toughness
12 Focus: Necro
15 Greater Focus: Necro

I would do this:
Human Extend
1 Max
3 Empower
6 Toughness then switch for heighten, force of personality or greater spell pen
9 Focus: Necro
12 Greater Focus: Necro
15 Spell pen

This makes a good balanced sorc that is a good necro focused nuker.

It is not hard to get 2000 to 2200 mana as a sorc, so melee is not terribly useful. Literally I've never had the urge or need to melee since mod 2, as I'm generally busy FoDing things. In some quests, with a decent group, it can be hard to spend all your mana between shrines.

[Gol]

I just wanted to thank everybody for their input - it's greatly appreciated. I am going to re-think this from step 1, though. In PnP I could do this easily. DDO just doesn't offer the mechanics I want to do this build properly, so I'll just have to figure something else out.

Thanks!

[Wizzly_Bear]

Gol doesn't do Dex-based, and Gol doesn't do Drow.

How's this for a feat list?
Human Extend
1 Max
3 Empower
6 Toughness
9 Toughness
12 Focus: Necro
15 Greater Focus: Necro

imo, multiple toughness is a waste, as is double focus, esp on a sorc who has so few feats to grab. enlarge and spell pens would be better imo, and quicken is never a bad idea on any1 who casts spells.

[Gol]

imo, multiple toughness is a waste, as is double focus, esp on a sorc who has so few feats to grab. enlarge and spell pens would be better imo, and quicken is never a bad idea on any1 who casts spells.

Thank you, that's what I wanted to know. I've never played a "primary" caster and these are the things I don't know.