My Bardbarian build :>

[sigtrent]

I posted this in General Class but I wanted to see what kinds of comments the barbarians might have, can I hang with the berserker club and not get laughed at?

Character Name: Fuzgut Son of Kizkut
Build Title: BardBarian
Author: Sigfried Trent

Notes
Ideal values are listed, as where actual values are given in parenthesis if the character varies from the build.

Overview
I wanted something “different” especially different from what I already had. I went with dwarf because I didn’t have one, and barbarian because I didn’t have one of those either. I really wanted him to have UMD capabilities for equipment selection and some heavy HP as most of my characters are HP light.

I hate not being able to heal and I like bard songs so I went with bard for a combo class to get UMD. It is somewhat counter productive as you can’t rage and cast, but it’s a nice conceptual combo, the singing mad dwarf. And you get the rage spell built in for fun.

When in full DPS mode your AC is terrible, but you can turtle up with a shield for a halfway decent AC if you need to. And of course to cast spells you will need to strip down to light armor, but it shouldn’t be a big hassle as you will mostly be casting between or before fights.

Race: Dwarf (32 pt)
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Class: Fighter 2, Bard 4, Barbarian 6

Starting Statistics
Str: 18 Dex: 8 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 14

Expected Modified Statistics
Str: 27(35) Dex: 12 Con: 24(28) Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 18

Stat Increases: +1 Str at 4, 8 & 12

Feats
1 Skill Focus UMD(1), Weapon Focus Slashing(2), Toughness(3), Power Attack(6), Improved Critical Slashing (9), Cleave (9), Extend Spell (12)

Skills
Ranks: UMD 15, Perform??, Jump??, + smattering of others at 4 ranks

Abilities
Heavy Armor, Full Weapons, Dwarf Stuff, 4 Songs, 4 Rages, Uncanny Dodge (2), Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense 2, Inspire Courage, Fascinate, Inspire Competence, Tower Shield

Enhancements
Barbarian Toughness II
Dwarven Toughness I
Dwarven Axe Attack II
Dwarven Axe Damage II
Barbarian Constitution II
Dwarven Constitution II
Barbarian Extra Rage II
Barbarian Extended Rage II
Barbarian Power Rage II
Bard Inspired Damage I
Fighter Strength I
Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Bard Song Magic I
Bard Wand Mastery I

Spells
Cure Light Wounds, Expeditious Retreat, Remove Fear, Rage, Heroism

Spell points: 200- 250
Base Hit Points: 224

Typical AC breakdown
Base 10, Dex +1, Armor 13, Rage -2, Rage Spell -2, Deflection 4 = 24

Attack breakdowns
BAB 11, Weapon Enhancement 5, Str 12, Weapon Focus 1, Heroism 2, Enhancement 2, Haste 1, -5 power attack = 29

Damage Bonus Breakdown
1D12 (weapon) + 18 (str) +5 (weapon) +10 (power attack) +2 (Axe enhancement) +2 (song) = 38-49 <17-20 X3>

Save Breakdowns <not including conditional bonuses>
Fortitude: Base 9, Stat 7, Heroism 2, Resistance 2 = 20
Reflexes: Base 6, Stat 1, Heroism 2, Resistance 2 = 11
Will: Base 6, Stat 0, Heroism 2, Resistance 2 = 10 (14)

Conclusions/Thoughts
The DPS outlook is actualy better than I had though it would be. Clearly it is somewhat dependent on raging but he should be able to at least tread water while not raging and can go axe/shield at those times to shore up the AC issues. The saves actualy come out pretty decent for a DPS character, not stellar but better than a pure class build. All in all I think it will be fun to play and fairly effective.

[Eurytos]

Edited for brain fart.
_________________________________


4 Songs is hardly enough to do much as is 4 rages. Might be Fatigued way more than you would like. (4 rages = may not be enough to keep rage up constantly throughout a quest (or between shrines) so you will either have about 8 minutes max of rage before being fatigued and having no more rage until a shrine. Or, splitting up your rages to fit between shrines but then you have 4 minutes total of fatigue.

[sigtrent]

Thanks for the comments!

Not sure what the calculation is your working on but....

Str 18 base + 3 from levels + 4 from item + 4 base rage + 2 enhanced rage + 2 rage spell + 1 enhancement = 34 (I've got a tome for the extra point)

Str bonus for 34 is +12 ((str-10)/2) so that is +12 to hit / +12 damage, however... when using a two handed weapon you do STR bonus X 1.5 damage so its +18 damage

Songs and rages are kind of limited but its 4 more rages than a bard and 4 more songs than a barbarian. :P But it's true I'll be in the "peak damage" zone much less often than a pure barbarian would due to shorter rages and less of them. I don't know why I will be fatigued any longer though?

[Eurytos]

Sorry, brain fart on my part. Was thinking 20 was base instead of 10.

[SpiRosM]

you just ruined a good class =)
just my 2 cent

[tihocan]

Note: critical rage I requires a barbarian level 11

[sigtrent]

Note: critical rage I requires a barbarian level 11

Ahh, ya did this one before the enhancements actualy came out, need to fix that up.

[KiwiPhil889]

.. as you already noted,while raging you cant cast spells..or use clickies or wands/scrolls btw...so heres a question for you,maybe Extending the rage period isn't the best use of AP's, by extending the rage time (via enhancements) you are essentially extending the period when you don't have access to the other half of your build. Personally?? i like the "idea" but am not sure if i could run it and be happy with the performance,but i DO like the concept of a self healing spell casting raging Barb lol...

p.s. I think they're actually called Skalds btw.something i read somewhere else here,

g/l
cheers.

[geezee]

Maybe better to drop CHA to 12, raise CON by 3, drop toughness, and take another skill focus:UMD.

These changes would increase your fort save, UMD skill, and rage duration. Your perform and haggle would drop by 1.

You really dont need to raise your perform too much anyway because I assume you will be using all 4 of your songs to buff. While you could get your perform up to 30 or so buffed, which is enough to fascinate most things, you wont have enough songs to fascinate more often than once in a while. Also, if youre planning on swinging around a 2 hander, thats gonna break fascination. I think you would get more benefit using the songs to buff.

12 is enough CHA to cast lvl 2 spells. You could lower it more if you had a tome.

[sigtrent]

Thanks for all the comments! Even Mr "ruin the class" (although I'd love to hear why next time :>)

You can't (or shouldn't) be able to take Skill focus UMD twice. You can take skill focus multiple times but only for different skills. 14 Cha was about the sweet spot for getting to 20 UMD in a timely manar and being able to use RR items before late levels and without excessive buffing to equip. My main goal is RR items more than res scrolls although at high levels I'll be able to pull that off. CHA 12 is probbably workable, but it's hard for me to bring myself that low, I really wanted 16 but it's just way too expensive.

I like toughness now that there are the cheap enhancements and whey I can take 2 for only 1 AP each it is just too much cheap HP to pass up despite my very limited feat picks. And with my AC I'm going to need it to survive hits. I probably should go with 16 str and up my con and dex or con and wis but I just had to go for as much STR as I could, as trying to multi and maintian rather high DPS was the main goal here.

The small number of songs and rages is certainly an issue. I think the key is to use them very strategicly, when you need them most and not just <because you can>. At level 4 I have 2 of each and I use them for end fights in solo questing, especialy the rages and fascinates. He is a monster at level 4. 110 buffed HP, +15 to hit with 1d10+11+2d6 damage all pumped up.. Still +11 1d10+8+2d6 unbuffed.

At the moment casting in battle just doesn't happen. I use my SP to heal after fights, same with wands. If I can't beat a fight on one set of HP some CLW just isn't going to make it happen. At level 4 I'm making heavy use of stat buffing wands, mostly STR and DEX. I wear Full plate and a Heavy Shield pretty much all the time and only swap to robes to heal up. My dwarven axe is just better than any TH weapon I have at the moment but I've got some nice ones for level 6 lined up.

It's still hard to tell how well the build plays though. Twinked characters are almost always powerhouses at level 4-6. Its around level 8 you really see what they are made of.

[Jaerek_Viserys]

Race: Dwarf (32 pt)
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Class: Fighter 2, Bard 4, Barbarian 6

Starting Statistics
Str: 18 Dex: 8 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 14

I'd rather buy 16/14/14/8/10/14. Put two AP into Armor Mastery to get +4 outta Mithral FP. +1 to hit/damage or +3 AC? If you'd rather have skills than saves, it's a wash to me.

Feats
1 Skill Focus UMD(1), Weapon Focus Slashing(2), Toughness(3), Power Attack(6), Improved Critical Slashing (9), Cleave (9), Extend Spell (12)

WF is an alright feat, but you have buffs to make up for a single +1 attack. I really like the THF tree, but Toughness with all the enhancements does add up. Personally, I'd ditch Cleave for THF. Extend is pretty late there. Since you can retrain as higher levels become available, SF: UMD is a great buy.

Skills
Ranks: UMD 15, Perform??, Jump??, + smattering of others at 4 ranks

Ya, Jump is fun. Spot helps out. UMD is really all I'd worry about.

Enhancements
Barbarian Toughness II
Dwarven Toughness I
Dwarven Axe Attack II
Dwarven Axe Damage II
Barbarian Constitution II
Dwarven Constitution II
Barbarian Extra Rage II
Barbarian Extended Rage II
Barbarian Power Rage II
Bard Inspired Damage I
Fighter Strength I
Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Bard Song Magic I
Bard Wand Mastery I

Axe Damage isn't worth the cost IMO. Axe Attack is great, but once you have certain swords... who cares. The +1 CON for 4pts isn't worth it in my book, esp since you really have to pay 8 to get a real benefit.

Instead of those, take Dwarven Toughness III, DR Boost II, Barb Willpwr II, Lingering Song I, Armor Mastery I, Spell Def III, and Barb PA II. +3 vs spells and spell like effects? +2 will saves while raging? Oh ya. Will saves are Barbs. biggest weakness, so I say shore em up. +10 HP, longer buffs, -2 to hit for +2 damage (which will soon be fixed for -2/+4), and a DR 9/- clickie.

I even kept Axe Attack and Crit Accuracy, even though I would probably fiddle around with something else. 'Course, I also kept Toughness in there since you liked it.

All comments just my opinion.

[sigtrent]

Thanks for all the great comments Jaerek!

It's noteworthy that many of your comments are about trying to shore up weaknesses rather than emphasizing strenghts, something I wouldn't expect to see in the Barbarian forums.

I'd rather buy 16/14/14/8/10/14. Put two AP into Armor Mastery to get +4 outta Mithral FP. +1 to hit/damage or +3 AC? If you'd rather have skills than saves, it's a wash to me..

Makes sense. 16 str gets you a lot more freedom. Mithral FP is one of those things you have or don't. I don't expect to have it for this guy (I have another character I'd give it too first.)

Axe Damage isn't worth the cost IMO. Axe Attack is great, but once you have certain swords... who cares. The +1 CON for 4pts isn't worth it in my book, esp since you really have to pay 8 to get a real benefit.

Hmm, I see axe damage as pretty cheap all around. Dwarven axe has nice advantages so I thought I'd emphasize it. Ya, if I had sword of shadows or some such I might shift that around but otherwise +2 damage for 3ap is pretty cheap. The con thing is kind of a trade off. I'm spending 12pts on it for 24hp, +2 fort saves, and longer rages (by a bit). I'd certianly buy the first levels, its a bargin there. But I'm not sure I could make that up wtih any other picks.

Instead of those, take Dwarven Toughness III, DR Boost II, Barb Willpwr II, Lingering Song I, Armor Mastery I, Spell Def III, and Barb PA II. +3 vs spells and spell like effects? +2 will saves while raging? Oh ya. Will saves are Barbs. biggest weakness, so I say shore em up. +10 HP, longer buffs, -2 to hit for +2 damage (which will soon be fixed for -2/+4), and a DR 9/- clickie.

Well... my base will saves are about as good as any class, just have that low WIS to contend with dwarven bonuses and the rage bonus I don't see much of a weakness. If anything this build posts better will saves than typical fighters or barbarians. Your picks are a different direction , but certainly a valid one.

All comments just my opinion.

Much appreciated! I mostly post these because I like talking about builds so even when I might not prefer folks suggestions I love hearing them and talking about the relative merits.

[ghale]

I think ultimately youre trying to do too much which will end up more mediocre than you think.

Alot of your numbers include rage but at only lvl 6 you won't have access to the best enhancements for rage so you'll have a lower strength and a lesser rage time for maybe 6-7 minutes of rage before you'll need to shrine. You could be fortunate to play in a fast paced group but pugs/most groups will go slow enough that you'll be spending half the time fatigued or as a mediocre dps with no rage.

Cleave is also a decent feat until you get BaB of 10 for your 4th attack and then it becomes a hassle. If using 2h weapons the two handed feats are much better.

I don't see the real reason of mixing bard especially if grouping or raid later on.

Heroism - shield from threnal rewards or GH from planar girds.
Rage - clickies and for a bard spell blur would be a much better choice.
Blur - DQ cloak
Fascinate - can't use while raging
Expeditious Retreat - Not Necessary as barbs get 10% to begin with, although until you can wear the high stride items you will be super fast.

Also to the point about ac someone was making, +5mithral fp or not your ac is practically null as a Barb so not worth trying to capitalize on. Much more efficient to maximize your dps to make up for it.

For saves your will save will be decent while raging but as previously mentioned you will lack the capacity to stay raged for that long which is the true strength of being a Barb.

It will still probably be an enjoyable build to play if you want a little bit of everything though .

[sigtrent]

Alot of your numbers include rage but at only lvl 6 you won't have access to the best enhancements for rage so you'll have a lower strength and a lesser rage time for maybe 6-7 minutes of rage before you'll need to shrine.

Well, rage numbers are what they are (mostly just showing off the extreems), but I plan on spending most of my time not raged and saving it for final fights, pre shrine combats or what I consider especialy challenging encounters. Rage for him is +3 to hit and +3-5 damage so while it's a decent boost it's not a huge part of his fighting. A true barbarian gets to "turn it up to 11, hell 13!" a good portion of the time, I'll have to settle for 11 when I want a little "umph". I considered a Rogue 2 Barbarian 10 build, and I think in many ways it would be stronger, but this just seemed more exotic.

Cleave is also a decent feat until you get BaB of 10 for your 4th attack and then it becomes a hassle. If using 2h weapons the two handed feats are much better.

I don't see the real reason of mixing bard especially if grouping or raid later on.

The #1 reason is UMD, #2 is access to healing wands early on. It's the only class that will get you both of those things. Going to level 4 in it is mostly because it's a good break point and lets me get a good deal of bard tricks wihtout sacrificing much BAB and looking at the enhancements I didn't see a lot of boons between Barbaran 6 and Barbarian 9. Rogue can also get you the UMD and eventualy that gets you healing as well.

Clickies: For whatever reason I just don't like relying on clickies. I'm not into loot runs and I find they clutter up my bars and generely don't last as long as I'd like etc... I much perfer being able to self cast such things. If you like working with them or have the patience to run XC 50 times more power to you, it is in many ways, the best way to go.

Fascinate - can't use while raging

I've actualy done this so I know it is possible, but even if it gets "fixed" you have plenty of time to rage after things are fascinated.

Expeditious Retreat - Not Necessary as barbs get 10% to begin with, although until you can wear the high stride items you will be super fast.

True, but not a ton of great low end bard spells for someone without strong charisma...

Much more efficient to maximize your dps to make up for it.

That's kind of what I was angling at after reading the "Robes" thread here on the Barbarian forumn. Very interesting reading. I still find it practical to run around in full plate since my dex is nothing to speak of. But I decided to pretty much forgoe all AC considerations and see how it played out.

For saves your will save will be decent while raging but as previously mentioned you will lack the capacity to stay raged for that long which is the true strength of being a Barb.

So how long can a full specced raging barbarian stay raged?

7 rages? 3 minutes each? 21 minutes? (total guesses here..) I'd like to know the hard numbers. I have a 10 con character with a couple barbarian levels and the diff on rage times seems pretty marginal between that and 16 + the first step of extend. Both seem pretty darn short. Can a full barbarian really rage through the majority of a raid going at a measured pace?

Lots of things have a bit of diminishing returns in D&D and DDO. So it seemed to me that with 24 (about 70% of max) base con, 4 rages (more than half max) and extend 2 (only one short of max) I'd be getting well more than half of what a full barbarian's rage time. Am I wrong about this?

[ghale]

For rage you will only have access to extend 2 which is 50% while a lvl 12 will have a 100% extra time. Plus at at lvl 12 Barbs have 7 rages so you will actually lose out on a good amount of time. Without calculating all the math out to the exact % your build would be at about 50% the length of time between the difference of the 4 rages you have plus the extra three.

The downside of rage as just a boost is that you can't do much else which is why paladins have an advantage in that regard of getting 5/5 with divine favor but no drawbacks. But of course then paladins can't multi with bard so there is that.


I can understand the bard for healing at low levels as mixing in 1 level of a class that can do that is something I contemplated in several builds but while effective at lower levels it isn't worth the enhancements you miss later on if you want to specialize, maximizing dps. UMD is also nice for gear but easy enough to find gear that does suit your rr. Plus the best weapon in the game requires no UMD and as melee that is really all you need .

I can understand not relying on clickies as well but both clickies I mentioned have a duration of 5min/11min respectively so it is a huge gain without having to diminish your main str by taking another class.

My mistake about the fascinate then .

I also wasn't trying to be a supporter for robes as aesthetically I cant stand them, just ment that Dex is important for reflex save and little else. Wear whatever armor offers the best look/effect you would like. This is why I also advocate taking blur instead of rage as 20% miss chance will greatly help to balance out your defensive weakness.

Again I didn't think your build wouldn't be fun or versatile. Looks like it would be a fun build to play.

[sigtrent]

Thanks ghale. I don't mind folks pointing out the down sides, more than anything that's what I'm interested in hearing about.

If I could bring myself to play pure class characters I'd have a baseling to judge these things on. :> I have to rely on the insights of others for that.

[Maldini]

I posted this in General Class but I wanted to see what kinds of comments the barbarians might have, can I hang with the berserker club and not get laughed at?

Character Name: Fuzgut Son of Kizkut
Build Title: BardBarian
Author: Sigfried Trent

Notes
Ideal values are listed, as where actual values are given in parenthesis if the character varies from the build.

Overview
I wanted something “different” especially different from what I already had. I went with dwarf because I didn’t have one, and barbarian because I didn’t have one of those either. I really wanted him to have UMD capabilities for equipment selection and some heavy HP as most of my characters are HP light.

I hate not being able to heal and I like bard songs so I went with bard for a combo class to get UMD. It is somewhat counter productive as you can’t rage and cast, but it’s a nice conceptual combo, the singing mad dwarf. And you get the rage spell built in for fun.

When in full DPS mode your AC is terrible, but you can turtle up with a shield for a halfway decent AC if you need to. And of course to cast spells you will need to strip down to light armor, but it shouldn’t be a big hassle as you will mostly be casting between or before fights.

Race: Dwarf (32 pt)
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Class: Fighter 2, Bard 4, Barbarian 6

Starting Statistics
Str: 18 Dex: 8 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 14

Expected Modified Statistics
Str: 27(35) Dex: 12 Con: 24(28) Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 18

Stat Increases: +1 Str at 4, 8 & 12

Feats
1 Skill Focus UMD(1), Weapon Focus Slashing(2), Toughness(3), Power Attack(6), Improved Critical Slashing (9), Cleave (9), Extend Spell (12)

Skills
Ranks: UMD 15, Perform??, Jump??, + smattering of others at 4 ranks

Abilities
Heavy Armor, Full Weapons, Dwarf Stuff, 4 Songs, 4 Rages, Uncanny Dodge (2), Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense 2, Inspire Courage, Fascinate, Inspire Competence, Tower Shield

Enhancements
Barbarian Toughness II
Dwarven Toughness I
Dwarven Axe Attack II
Dwarven Axe Damage II
Barbarian Constitution II
Dwarven Constitution II
Barbarian Extra Rage II
Barbarian Extended Rage II
Barbarian Power Rage II
Bard Inspired Damage I
Fighter Strength I
Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Bard Song Magic I
Bard Wand Mastery I

Spells
Cure Light Wounds, Expeditious Retreat, Remove Fear, Rage, Heroism

Spell points: 200- 250
Base Hit Points: 224

Typical AC breakdown
Base 10, Dex +1, Armor 13, Rage -2, Rage Spell -2, Deflection 4 = 24

Attack breakdowns
BAB 11, Weapon Enhancement 5, Str 12, Weapon Focus 1, Heroism 2, Enhancement 2, Haste 1, -5 power attack = 29

Damage Bonus Breakdown
1D12 (weapon) + 18 (str) +5 (weapon) +10 (power attack) +2 (Axe enhancement) +2 (song) = 38-49 <17-20 X3>

Save Breakdowns <not including conditional bonuses>
Fortitude: Base 9, Stat 7, Heroism 2, Resistance 2 = 20
Reflexes: Base 6, Stat 1, Heroism 2, Resistance 2 = 11
Will: Base 6, Stat 0, Heroism 2, Resistance 2 = 10 (14)

Conclusions/Thoughts
The DPS outlook is actualy better than I had though it would be. Clearly it is somewhat dependent on raging but he should be able to at least tread water while not raging and can go axe/shield at those times to shore up the AC issues. The saves actualy come out pretty decent for a DPS character, not stellar but better than a pure class build. All in all I think it will be fun to play and fairly effective.

Hmm...seems good for a solo build, but any bard in the group is going to overpower your song capabilities. It's good for the self heal. Personally, I would take 1 level in Bard just for the wand use and the UMD score, maybe two at the most, 1 at first level and one at 12 to cap UMD.

Put the other two free levels into Barb and beef that up to 8. Your ability to cast Heroism can be offset by the Planar Gird which lasts for 11 minutes and is +2 greater. Rage spell is offset by potions or a wizard in the group. I personally carry a ton of Rage Potions as you can use potions while in a Rage but can't cast a spell or use a castable item.

Perhaps pick up the Barb DR Action Boost with 8 levels of Barb. That comes in handy more than you can imagine.

[sigtrent]

Someone bumped the Rage time calculator, so I used it on my build and I did a run for a 20 starting con dwarf with all the enhancemetns to buff con and rage time, but otherwise simmilar equipment assumptions.

Fuzgut = 504 seconds
Rage Machine = 1680 seconds

So a bit more than X3 as much rage time which indeed is pretty significant.

I'm pretty sure I'll still be happy with that but it's good to know for folks looking at the build.

Rage = [18 + (6 * ConMod) + (6 * RageMod)] * Enhancement

Where:
ConMod = Normal Constitution Bonus
RageMod = Constitution Bonus added by Raging
Enhancement = 1 + % of Extended Rage you have

[/QUOTE]

[Maldini]

Someone bumped the Rage time calculator

Hmmm, I wonder who could have done that?

[spifflove]

I agree with Maldinis comments you will only have enough skll points for umd, perform, and maybe jump

You need to change the name of this build to the bagpiper and the name of your character to bagpipe shortkilt