Head-butting the "Guild Paradigm"

[Qwert]

This past weekend, I had a very disturbing experience, and while the experience was not a violation of any of Turbine's Terms of Service, I am hard-pressed to let the matter go without some kind of comment.

I was looking to do the Dragon Raid, and I responded to an 'lfm' that was being put together by a player that I had grouped with before. I know the guy to be a good player, so I sent him a tell and was invited to the party. He was clear with me, up front, and he explained that we would not get started right away since we were waiting for some other players to finish VoN4.

Other players come and go through the group, and finally the group is joined by another person that is obviously a member of the guild whose members we are waiting for. The leader of our raid party begins saying that there may be an issue with the number of available spots, and he continues by saying that it should not be a problem because he has to drop, anyway. The new 'guildie' begins asking the people we are waiting for about the number of spots that are required and what classes will be needed. To which he gets no response for twenty minutes. Finally, he tells them there is only one spot left (in order to get a reply), and all of them reply back. We laugh at this and then he continues to press them for details to which they remain aloof.

So here I am, trying to amuse myself by seeing exactly which pillars surrounding the Kundarak platform I can jump onto. After about an hour-and-a-half, we find out that the group we were waiting for was halfway through VoN4. VoN4!? Oh .. apparantly I misunderstood, earlier. When I was told that we were waiting for someone to finish VoN4, I should have realized that we were waiting for someone to finish VoN3 and VoN4. Ooops.

Well, I waited this long, might as well wait a little longer.

An hour later, we get the word that the group is done and on their way. Now, comes the fatal blow. The group disbands and reforms with the new group with three of us left standing with our 'axe' in our hands.

What!? By what stretch of the imagination is that behavior even remotely okay?

I send a tell to one of the members and say "Hey .. what gives?" His reply is "Sry .. don't know what to tell you."

Two-and-a-half hours!? For a "Sry .. don't know what to tell you."

I have grouped with many of the people that were in this raid. I have joked with them and have found them to be good players. I have no issue with them, personally. I have issue with the mind-set that says that another person's time is valueless in the face of the demands of a "Guild." If a guild is representative of a spirit of camaraderie, where is it evidenced? This behavior smacks sharply of elitism.

Were it me, and I was tossing the invites, I would not have filled the spots that were reserved. I also would have pressed, the people I was waiting for, for details regarding exactly how many spots were needed. And if they were not forthcoming with the information that I requested, several times, I would have told THEM, "Too bad, buddy." I would have endeavored to treat the other players, that had joined, with a modicrum of respect for their time, and I certainly wouldn't have told discarded players "Sry .. I don't know what to tell you."

[Mad_Bombardier]

Qwert, I know its hard not using names, but you used far too many pronouns in your description to really understand what happened. At any rate, I'm going to say 'bad form' on the raid leader. Being a raid leader is not an easy thing to do, and coordinating 12 folks is challenging. But, making the group wait 2.5 hours, only to disband and reform because he doesn't have a big enough 'pair' to explain what happened and dismiss is despicable.

He may have thought he was being polite by not dismissing, but it does smack of elitism; "you're not good enough for us and we're not even going to acknowledge you." I understand that changes happen. Sometimes a guildie who wasn't coming logs on and wants in. Sometimes people want to bring friends and give the ultimatum "its both/all of us or none of us." The raid leader needs to handle each of these things in turn. Your raid leader handled them, but poorly and to the detriment of you and 3 others. All I can say is, "Bad form, -10 House points from Slytherin." I can only suggest not to try and join their raids until they get an honest and capable raid leader.

[Shieny]

Wow I don't know what to say about this except the fact that it would be there loss not yours. I also have to give you props on not using any of their names after them wasting 2.5 hours of your time. Although I would probably have mentioned there names, and am not completley sure if it is in violation of the code of conduct, because you are not name calling just stating a fact. (however I may be wrong and am not recommending the listing of the guild or members names, neither am I trying to lure you into violating the code of conduct and forum rules.) I do have to say you have a great deal of honor.

If you want, you can post or PM me your character names and I will try, to get you into my guilds upcoming raids, be it the Dragon, Queen or Titan, because of how you were treated on mabar. I am not guaranteeing that you will be allowed to join our next raid, that is utimatley, up to the guild leader, raid leader, and guild members. But at the very I can put you on our alternate list and you will be contacted if we have an extra spot in the raid.

[Qwert]

Thanks, Shieny. I caught this reponse in the general section, too. I decided to reply here since it has less exposure. I appreciate your offer, and I happily accept. I appreciate your disclaimer. I do understand that you cannot make any promises, and I will not hold you accountable if the offer "pans out." Sig has character names.

To date, I have had no poor experiences with the Legendary Kights of DnD. In fact, I have found only members that were either knowledgeable and helpful, or at least, non-intrusive into the group's general flow. I shared only one bad pug with a Knight and that was only because he and I both had to endure an eight-year-old rogue with a REALLY strong propensity for dictating (this was, incidentally, the ONLY group I have ever dropped out of without saying anything).

[gabaod]

To date, I have had no poor experiences with the Legendary Kights of DnD. In fact, I have found only members that were either knowledgeable and helpful, or at least, non-intrusive into the group's general flow. I shared only one bad pug with a Knight and that was only because he and I both had to endure an eight-year-old rogue with a REALLY strong propensity for dictating (this was, incidentally, the ONLY group I have ever dropped out of without saying anything).

They complain that a rogue would want the dragon helm.. i guess they dont realize how much wisdom can benefit a rogue, not to mention the look factor.

woulda loved to see their guild chat after i brought them through v5... and didnt want the gay goggles lmao.

[Anastasios]

They complain that a rogue would want the dragon helm.. i guess they dont realize how much wisdom can benefit a rogue, not to mention the look factor.

woulda loved to see their guild chat after i brought them through v5... and didnt want the gay goggles lmao.

For someone I remember being quite a noob back in the day, to present, you are unconditionally wrong. I wasn't in the raid but I heard about your antics, get a life, you led NOONE through that raid, as a matter of fact all you did was impose your own stupidity upon others.

Yeah, I'm sure you led them through victory, the same way you annoyed the **** out of everyone, and I speak for someone who has done quite a few raids, especially with a particular member in that raid group who has been one of my good friends since about a month in this game. The only thing you would have been entitled to in that raid was a squelch. Go back in hiding, and no offense, you suck.

[Necros]

Mos is in my guild, and I must chime in here, even in our guild our loot rule is essientially "Need before Greed" which means that you only get loot that would benifit you class the most until everyone has got it, IE : a caster wouldnt roll on the Shadow Sword, and we wouldnt let a Rogue roll on a wisdom helm. Now in saying that, I have to take Mos's side for a minute and ask the question, was the terms of the loot agreed upon before he started the quest, or were they only mentioned at last minute? If I am inviting a Pick up member into my Raid I dicuss the loot policy right away so that way when it comes time to roll there are no suprises. I have proboly given away more loot to 1st time Raiders than anyone on the server due to this LOL. Anyways if you didnt do that I would suggest doing so in the future. And for Mos I would suggest if it isnt mentioned right off, and there is something specific you are doing it for mention that as well, so that later on stuff like this doesnt happen. I cant take either side here as I dont know all the facts but I like to say that I try to be fair and will get Mos s side of the story on this as well. I have talked to Kscribly already wanted to post something here so you at least know that its being taken care of one way or the other.

[boricua_in_cali]

wow, such apprehensible behavior. I'll agree, bad form on the part of the raid leader. I wasn't there, nor do I know which guild this is ur talking of, but i do applaud u for not using names, or pointing fingers. Like Shieny though, i would have definitely mentioned some names....

anyway, if u ever see me with an LFM for raid content, ur more than welcome to come.

To whoever committed this act, "Doom on You" (ala Ice Age dodos)

[Beerthirty]

Two-and-a-half hours!? For a "Sry .. don't know what to tell you."

Taken note of this and steering clear of them. Thanks a lot Qwert.

[kscribley]

yes we did discussus the "need before greed" that the loot would be a group desestion, that it would be jugded by class and rolled on. I try to run a high moral standard for my guildie, and we will treat everyone we group with respect.

As far as Mosquit's additude like we wouldnt have gotten thur von 5 without him and daring us to kick him out of the party displayed lack of respect

[Factol]

seriously I would like to know what guild this is.. so I know not to join anything they lead.

Factol

[LongLive]

Well first of all, heres a little tip if it takes, a party 2.5 hours to do von4, u really dont want to run von5/6 with them imo... von 4 is a 20-25 min misson on elite tops, and that running into probs with it.. I alost agree that the person who invited u 2 join the raid party should never form a raid party again, Very childish way to handle a prob that came up

[Necros]

The original post here is referring to someone in the Shadow House guild. Not my guild if anyone is getting confused by this 2 topic post here, but Kscrib, thx for contacting me and being cool about it, Ill find out when Mos logs in about the raid and get everything straightend out. Thx for the reply here.

[Nirvana]

To OP, I am very sorry about what has happened to you. Seriously, you were too kind to wait 2.5 hours for them doing von4 (or even von1-4)

To whatever that guild OP was dealing with, I am sorry to say you guys had bad attitude and were very immature. Not to mention that your playing skills were terrible. 2.5 hours for von1-4 (maybe von4..) is ridiculous.

To Mos, dude, if you want dragon helm, join our 6man dragon raid...everyone has equal right to roll for anything, no one would complain anything.

To whoever said "Go back in hiding, and no offense, you suck", be gentle, be polite on the forum, I don't like personal attack words in public forum, especially I know both of you... Mos has temper and maybe bad attitude, but maybe the overreaction about "rogue wants dragon helm" was the key to let him say something improper in this thread. Everything happens for a reason.

My end of line is, it's just a game, the loot isn't important, the time we spend together is.

[Shieny]

Clarrification: Qwert had mentioned that he was screwed over and wasted 2.5 hours to do the dragon and then left to dry by a guild (not legendary Knights). I offerred to help Qwert and said my guild (legendary Knights) can probably get him in on some raids to help him out.

Mesquito, (forum name gaboad) posted this message talking about the legendary knights using a quote from Qwert.

They complain that a rogue would want the dragon helm.. i guess they dont realize how much wisdom can benefit a rogue, not to mention the look factor.

woulda loved to see their guild chat after i brought them through v5... and didnt want the gay goggles lmao.

As Kscribly our guild leader and raid leader pointed out, we did mention a "need vs. greed" (orignally stated by necros) before the raid started. Any problems or alterations in loot distributions would have been settled then. Now the mention of clerics get to roll for the wisdom helm over rouges may not have been directly stated. However, That is commen sense, Ask any rouge who is better able to use a wisdom helm, clerics or rouges, and they will all say cleric. Also the fact that the rouge passes on the goggles does not mean he gets to screw over other people and take the wisdom helm. It is his decision to pass on the goggles.

As for him being the only reason we got through von 5 is a laugh. First ask anyone who has ran with the legendary knights on anything, if we are more than capable on running through von 5?. You will clearly discover that we can do von 5 elite and naked. And if you play with Mesquito you will then discover which one, mesquito or legendary knights are conceded, naive, and aragont if you haven't already from his post.


This next post by necros was referring to Gaboad's Post about him running the dragon with the legendary Knights of DnD.

Mos is in my guild, and I must chime in here, even in our guild our loot rule is essientially "Need before Greed" which means that you only get loot that would benifit you class the most until everyone has got it, IE : a caster wouldnt roll on the Shadow Sword, and we wouldnt let a Rogue roll on a wisdom helm. Now in saying that, I have to take Mos's side for a minute and ask the question, was the terms of the loot agreed upon before he started the quest, or were they only mentioned at last minute? If I am inviting a Pick up member into my Raid I dicuss the loot policy right away so that way when it comes time to roll there are no suprises. I have proboly given away more loot to 1st time Raiders than anyone on the server due to this LOL. Anyways if you didnt do that I would suggest doing so in the future. And for Mos I would suggest if it isnt mentioned right off, and there is something specific you are doing it for mention that as well, so that later on stuff like this doesnt happen. I cant take either side here as I dont know all the facts but I like to say that I try to be fair and will get Mos s side of the story on this as well. I have talked to Kscribly already wanted to post something here so you at least know that its being taken care of one way or the other.

Boricua is reffering back to Qwerts original post

wow, such apprehensible behavior. I'll agree, bad form on the part of the raid leader. I wasn't there, nor do I know which guild this is ur talking of, but i do applaud u for not using names, or pointing fingers. Like Shieny though, i would have definitely mentioned some names....

anyway, if u ever see me with an LFM for raid content, ur more than welcome to come.

To whoever committed this act, "Doom on You" (ala Ice Age dodos)

I hope this clarrifys things for the post. And Nirvana not to personally attack you, because I like most of the things you post I just want you to be aware that Gaebaod also personally attacked the legendary Knights. He changed the topic of the forum to attack us and slandered our guild. I am not saying that my friend and guildie Anastosios didn't personally attack Gaebaod or had the right to say it. I am just saying, If you are going to say someone sucks because of a personal attack, then you should mention everyone who attacks anyone or any guild.

[frankz331]

I Was There I Am A Member And An Officer Of This Guild. When He Zoned In We Discussed That The Loot Gets Rolled Upon By Class Ex Str Belt Fighter , Barb Wis Helm Cleric. His Response Was Pretty Much I Want A Free Roll For Anything And If I Dont Get To I Am Gonna Bad Mouth U On The Forms. So Themn I Stated To Him We Roll By Class He Could Feal Free To Stay Or Leave Up To Him. We Had 2 Other Guildies That Could Have Brought There Rouges In To Do The Traps But We Let Him Stay. So Then He Says You Guys Would Be Dead Without Me Here. Hm Ok He Is Talking To A Guild Who Ran The Dragon 3 Times That Night Has Killed The Queen Over 40 Times , Has Killed The Titan And 5 Manned Von3 In 8 Min. Yeah We Needed Him There To Save The Fing Day. So Then We Get To The Dragon He Starts Pull Mods Around The Bases He Dies On Second Base So I Run Around And Clean Up His Mess.then When It Is Time To Charge The Dragon He Refuses To Go First Even Though He Has The Highest Reflex Save. Everyone Knows The Highest Reflex Save Goes First. Guess It Was New News To Or Savior. Let Me Quote Him ''they Dont Know How Valuable The Wis Helm Could Be To A Rouge'' Yeah It Would Give Him +3 Will Save Wow Go Get The Bam Helm It Will Give U +6 Will Save Or Did Or Savior Not Know That Hm.
If Anyone Thinks A Rouge Should Roll On The Wis Helm Just Like A Cleric Should He Is And Idiot I Just Tell It Like It Is.
Kegdmaster
Kegarian
Kegdrowii
Raycharlesjr
Gargamelll

[Jesen]

This is in reply to Mosquito's post.

You really ruined your reputation and almost your guilds by acting the way you did in Von5, you first stirred the pot by demanding you can roll on the Wisdom helm. So Kscribly explained to you how the looting worked you then proceeded to throw threats like "You need me for this raid" and "I am going to make a post on the forums about this" at that point I would have booted you from the raid had I been leading it as you were making the raid less enjoyable for everybody in the group. Ks was very generous and allowed you to stay and suggested if it was not the way that you wanted loot to be divided up then you could leave, no hard feelings. You CHOSE to stay, we killed the dragon and then you came onto the forums and attempted to make our guild look like a bunch of idiots that have no idea what they are doing, and tried to make us look like we do not treat people fairly on raids.

Anyone that knows Knights know that we are a capable guild and do not need people to help us with a raid. You will be no longer welcome on any raids that I will be running.

Also on a side note there are many other helms a rogue could use(I have a rogue so I know about will saves) one of your main reasons for wanting the helm asides from will saves was and I quote "it is one of the best looking helms in the game" which I think is very selfish of you. You wont get very far in this game with your attitude so goodluck.

Disclaimer: This is my own opinions and not that of my guild, Kscribly speaks for the Knights on that behalf.

-Bor
-Serus
-Jesen
-Seblin

[Shieny]

This is in reply to Mosquito's post.

You really ruined your reputation and almost your guilds by acting the way you did in Von5, you first stirred the pot by demanding you can roll on the Wisdom helm. So Kscribly explained to you how the looting worked you then proceeded to throw threats like "You need me for this raid" and "I am going to make a post on the forums about this" at that point I would have booted you from the raid had I been leading it as you were making the raid less enjoyable for everybody in the group. Ks was very generous and allowed you to stay and suggested if it was not the way that you wanted loot to be divided up then you could leave, no hard feelings. You CHOSE to stay, we killed the dragon and then you came onto the forums and attempted to make our guild look like a bunch of idiots that have no idea what they are doing, and tried to make us look like we do not treat people fairly on raids.

Anyone that knows Knights know that we are a capable guild and do not need people to help us with a raid. You will be no longer welcome on any raids that I will be running.

Also on a side note there are many other helms a rogue could use(I have a rogue so I know about will saves) one of your main reasons for wanting the helm asides from will saves was and I quote "it is one of the best looking helms in the game" which I think is very selfish of you. You wont get very far in this game with your attitude so goodluck.

Disclaimer: This is my own opinions and not that of my guild, Kscribly speaks for the Knights on that behalf.

-Bor
-Serus
-Jesen
-Seblin

Don't worry seblin as an officer in the guild he wont be allowed to join any of our raids unless Kscribs says other wise. And as for almost ruining the name for Elite by Nature, well sadly one person can ruin the name of a guild. However, Necros, EBN leader, responded promptly and respectfully. Currently, I do not have a diff. opinion about their guild before this experience. However, the way they respond to this may change my opinion, for better or worst.

[Evisle]

I am one of the Raid Leaders of Legendary Knights and everything that needs to be said about the Raid with Mos has been more than abley expressed by my guildmates. For myself, all I can say to Mos is thanks for running with us last night and I am sorry that our guild loot rules were not to your liking. I hope that you find groups that are more suitable for you in the future.

I will say though as a word of caution - you need to be careful about how you approach interpersonal relationships in this game. Even more than what happened on the raid last night I am surprised that you highjacked Qwert's post when one of our officers was graciously offering to have him participate in an upcoming raid with our guild to help demonstrate to him that there are a lot of fundamentally good people playing on Mabar. Instead, I think your post has shown the opposite. Please note that this is simply my perspective and I am not speaking for the guild as a whole - refer to our guild leader's post for that.

So.............. to get back on point. Qwert if you can read through all the drama of the above posts, I wish to renew Shieny's invitation to run a raid with the Legendary Knights. I think that you will find that we run tight, fun raids that go well for the people involved. We will be running both the Queen and the Dragon this weekend so if you do see this please send me either a pm or an in game message to one of my toons. We'd be more than happy to have you run with us and hopefully wash the bad taste of your experience out of your mouth.

Veras Divania (11 Cleric/1 Fighter)
Crymsin Teardrop (12 Paladin)
Eldarra Frostfire (12 Wizard)
Heta Grimjaw (12 Fighter)
Twitchee Swollentoes (10 Rogue/2 Ranger)
Versa Divania (10 Cleric/1 Fighter)

[Kalten_of_Amber]

I really can't believe that this is the most active the Mabar forum has been in a long time, and it seems to be all about throwing mud at good guilds. I have had nothing but good experiences with both LK and EBN. It's been over a year now, and those guilds have always been decent people to run with. I just felt like, (after several people came to my guild's defense in the previously deleted thread), you guys are great, and why can't my barbarian roll for the necklace of prophecy? JK