ManyShot

[MtnLion]

... if manyshots were moved to a stance ...only worked while standing still. Otherwise it would be over powered.

That would be a good solution. Remember though that manyshot was added because ranged was admittedly underpowered at upper levels. It does not compensate, except for those 20 seconds out of 140 (1/7 of the time) for the underpowering, at present. It has its expense in ammunition, too. Suppose you trigger it and the fight ends, you can't end it, to save the timer or the ammunition, presently.

The real solution is to make it a stance, only preserved while immobile. Help with the strafing advantage, though repeating crossbows could still do it.

Special note: I play both sides of this issue and know the differences. I stress again that Longbows in particular are at the bottom of the food chain at higher levels. (I have two clerics, a wizard, a sorcerer, a rogue, a ranger, and a multi ro/pa/fi that has manyshot. Not a one of them below level 10.)

[jaitee]

many shot is alrede too powerful, i seen it take out countless mobs , some one once told me, wow about 100 numbers poped up on that many shot with this +4 icy burst longbow

i dont have a ranger, but i think i remeber him saying he could hit more then 1 target with many shot?

[MtnLion]

many shot is alrede too powerful, i seen it take out countless mobs , some one once told me, wow about 100 numbers poped up on that many shot with this +4 icy burst longbow

i dont have a ranger, but i think i remeber him saying he could hit more then 1 target with many shot?

Sure, but you should roll a ranger then complain that you are too powerful. Or, maybe mention how when you use your whirlwind with a paralyzer works.

[jaitee]

i play on rolling a wf 1 :P, i got alot of nice bows no1 to use em

[drkelfdourden]

So what your saying is I as a caster can do the same thing as your ranger can for 20 secs as many times as I want for as long as I want as long as I got the SP to sustain that, but as a Ranger I don't get the choice to do it with Arrows? MAnyshot would be limited just the same as anything else. Ammonition (which there is currently no fully returning Arrows) space (if you want better mobs, have shorter encounter distances) Penalties to attack, more Enemy rangers with the same feats at the same distances. What's wrong with making the opositions more difficult than simply telling me as a player I can't use my given talent for no reason at all. I wouldn't tell a Caster he can't cast Fireball (which is just as deadly if not more so) His is limited by SP Manyshot is by Ammo there is no difference there. And a Melee guy can charge or Overrun to close the distance to be just as deadly as the Ranger which they currently are more deadly. So get off this too powerful trip isn't not going to suffice.

[Velexia]

In DDO, there is no attack Penalty for using Manyshot. They instead opted to make it an active ability. For 20 seconds, every 2 minutes, you get to fire 2 arrows at once, at level 11, this changes to 3 arrows.

I think even with an attack penalty this ability would be too powerful. I use this with Improved Piercing Shot, and I'm killing 6-7 Giants on elite (when I line em up) in the time it takes me to kill one.

Too powerful? With Ranged attacks being so gimped already compared to Melee... no one has the right to say this.

[barecm]

I have never tried to turn on 2 stances at once, since I don't have two to try at the same time, but it would be interesting if you could and if manyshot were made a stance. If manyshot went to a stance with say a -4 to hit, precision would elminate it but 1/2 the initial damage. So, stat damaging, elemental, holy ect. damage would still be in effect. I can see that scenario being way over powered.

[Turial]

Currently you can only have one stance active at a time.

What I don't understand is why people are against ranged combat being brought up to the same speed as melee. In the top level content, people claim that AC doesn't matter (which is a discussion for another time), it would seem that the ability to lower mob hp while not using up your own hp and the finite sp of the caster classes would be a great thing.

I understand that mob AI is a factor to consider in but so are the resources of the players that keep all of us alive. Clerics use a good many more heal scrolls then they should keeping people alive. Personally I can't see melees putting their weapons away forever if ranged combat is brought up to speed. What I imagine will happen is that these classes will carry a few token bows and take a few pot shots at mobs to bring groups back to them where they block and switch out to their normal weapons.

[Spookydodger]

Ranged weapons shouldn't be on par to melee weapons. I understand that they are in PnP. But in this MMO world, of weak AI and "epic lvl" weapons, if that were the case then no one would use melee weapons. It would be easier to kite mobs in a train as a group and imp. precise shot with no worry of injury instead of having to use a combined group effort to take down mobs.

Now I would be in favor of an enhancement line that would allow for either a longer manyshot with the same cooldown. Or a line that would keep the manyshots at 20 seconds but reduces the cooldown. However if manyshots were moved to a stance then they would have to put a very serious penalty to hit on it or make it so it only worked while standing still. Otherwise it would be over powered.

You're kidding, right? You can already do that! If you get a smart group of players with decent ranged weapons (not just rangers), you can often go around in circles and kite them to your heart's content.

I think what's being talked about here is making the manyshot feat more useful than for the occassional mob smash. But let's face it, it's primary use is for either mowing down mobs as quickly as a melee for 20 seconds, or for having somewhat of a chance on bosses.

I've seen this do one of 3 things:
*Tear up regular mobs on normal and hard... for 20 seconds every 2 minutes
*Make specialty arrows useful till they are expended... no way to get more except luck
*Waste ammo on impossible AC or regenning mobs with an alarming rate.

I don't think it's too much to ask for this to be a stance. Especially considering that mob archers already outshoot player archers, without haste, by at least 25% with a higher attack bonus.

[Spookydodger]

Sure, but you should roll a ranger then complain that you are too powerful. Or, maybe mention how when you use your whirlwind with a paralyzer works.

Saying this is too powerful is like saying that a Mage (Sorcerer or Wizard) with Maximized, Empowered Lightning bolt is too powerful because the Mage can target the person in the back and hit more than one mob.

At least a Mage has the choice to pick fireball, ice storm, or any other number of area spells and not worry about being able to coordinate a 20 second manyshot window with the precise alignment of mobs required for piercing shot.

[Zenako]

Ranged combat is NOT the same thing as Melee combat and does not need to be equal. You are not subject to the same kind of risk while range attacking.


This is not a video game where every faction, Red, Blue or Yellow needs to have exactly equal potential or everyone wins playing Red. They are very different styles of combat.

[barecm]

Ranged combat is NOT the same thing as Melee combat and does not need to be equal. You are not subject to the same kind of risk while range attacking.


This is not a video game where every faction, Red, Blue or Yellow needs to have exactly equal potential or everyone wins playing Red. They are very different styles of combat.

Although I agree with you from a personal standpoint, this particular game should strive to emulate the 3.5 rules including ranged combat attacks per round... which it currently does not.

[Bohemond]

Although I agree with you from a personal standpoint, this particular game should strive to emulate the 3.5 rules including ranged combat attacks per round... which it currently does not.

The PnP version of Manyshot does not increase your rate of fire in the slightest. It allows you to maintain your RoF while moving, drawing a weapon, or taking other standard actions. Since DDO isn't turn based, and allows you to move an attack, the PnP version of Manyshot provides no benefit.

[Zenako]

The PnP version of Manyshot does not increase your rate of fire in the slightest. It allows you to maintain your RoF while moving, drawing a weapon, or taking other standard actions. Since DDO isn't turn based, and allows you to move an attack, the PnP version of Manyshot provides no benefit.

In fact it might lower your number of arrows fired in that round (factoring in things like haste, etc.)

There are tons of rules differences between a real time MMO and the turn based PnP D&D games. In paper and pencil, STR bonus for ranged attacks caps at the limit of Mighty Bows or +4. In Paper and pencil you have range increments to worry about. In paper and pencil NO-ONE is carrying around 2000 arrows at a time. (that would be IIRC 3lbs/20 arrows and quiver or 300 lbs of arrows alone!) (Now that might have stashes in Bags of holding etc...but the entire encumberance system is a lot more stringent.)

Ranged DPS/encounter is not gimped. Ranged attacks can commence the moment an enemy is spotted. I have yet to see anyone hit a mob with their Kophesh at 200 meters. Spend what amounts to 5 rounds of running to close with the target and you then compare the damage done vs damage taken. (add in some Crippling effects and the Mob moves even SLOWER giving you more rounds to apply your craft...)

Ranged attacking can seem weak if you are in parties that do not let you take advantage of it. Just like Rogues can be overlooked, or Bards left singing to themselves, or most any class that has non-standard methods of preparing and engaging the enemy. When you mix up with zerging Barbs and Fighters you might feel like you are not carrying your weight since you are not up there in the heavy melee. Well was it better for the party for the zergers to prematurely engage the mob and then expend a bunch of healing (from party members or themselves) than it would have been to soften up the mobs and let them come to you.

I was in Gwylans last night with my Bard. An excellent quest for getting good use out of ranged attacks. I would gather the forces together for period rebuffs, but we pretty much crusied through it 3 times (normal, hard and then elite). The party used lots of ranged attacks.

[Mad_Bombardier]

The PnP version of Manyshot does not increase your rate of fire in the slightest. It allows you to maintain your RoF while moving, drawing a weapon, or taking other standard actions. Since DDO isn't turn based, and allows you to move an attack, the PnP version of Manyshot provides no benefit.

Say what!?!

Manyshot [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6

Benefit
As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).

Maybe I'm utterly clueless, but "fires more arrows" reads as increases rate of fire to me. +1 arrow = +100% RoF, +2 arrows = +200% RoF, etc.

[Zenako]

Difference being that if you were standing still and had a full attack option available you could fire the number of arrows you were eligible for, which almost certainly includes rapid shot.

So while standing still (moving at most 5 feet) with a BAB of +11 I could fire off 3 arrows per round (or 4 with Rapid shot and a -2 penalty to all arrows fired that round. With Haste Spell you could get one extra "Shot" off as well.

If moving more than 5 feet, or in a surprise round you can only take an action which allows a single shot normally. With Manyshot that allows you to take a single shot with multiple arrows at a penalty to hit that round. The number of arrows you can nock in the bow depends on your BAB again. Rapid shot increases DO NOT apply in this case.

[Spookydodger]

This wouldn't be the first set of feats they rolled together, I bet.

One big difference I have noticed is that it does roll a separate number for each attack.

If we want to separate them, can I get the ability to shoot a ton of arrows if I stay stock still? I'll stand stock still for that.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Difference being that if you were standing still and had a full attack option available you could fire the number of arrows you were eligible for, which almost certainly includes rapid shot.

So while standing still (moving at most 5 feet) with a BAB of +11 I could fire off 3 arrows per round (or 4 with Rapid shot and a -2 penalty to all arrows fired that round. With Haste Spell you could get one extra "Shot" off as well.

If moving more than 5 feet, or in a surprise round you can only take an action which allows a single shot normally. With Manyshot that allows you to take a single shot with multiple arrows at a penalty to hit that round. The number of arrows you can nock in the bow depends on your BAB again. Rapid shot increases DO NOT apply in this case.

Gotcha, thanks Zenako for clarifying and thanks Bohemond for bringing it up.

[Puke]

I actually kind of like how manyshot is presently implemented. Rangers are given both the Archery and TWF lines and you should really drop the bow when you are within melee range anyway...you have skills for melee. But if you still insist on using the bow when threatened in melee range, I'm pretty sure that you are punished with a -4 to your AC by anything that swings at you.

I like that I do not have to stand still for it to work. Sometimes I need to duck behind a pillar or what-have-you because they are ranging back and I pop back out to shoot again. And I like that it works if I need to kite a monster or two.

I find it odd that the populace fears the Rangers killing from a distance. Now, most encounters don't really lend themselves to ranging anyway. But even still, the party was just fine to sit there for 5-minutes while a bunch of monsters cook in CK from a distance or you'd sit on a cliff for a long time while dragging monsters into Firewall but speak of a Ranger taking out a mob at a distance and this is just absurd and turns the game upside down. If the Ranger suggests that with his sneaking ability and his Improved Precise Shot he can line up all the beholders on the bridge in Invaders and take them out he gets declined but everyone would rather let the less sneaky Sorcerer cast CK and stand around for 5-minutes. (Now Casters can't buy some of these scrolls...scrolls which I consider akin to your version of ranged fighting or your arrows. But welcome to the Rangers' world where we've never been able to buy a pocket full of acid or anarchic or holy arrows from the vendor.) I think I digress.

Basically, I like how manyshot is implimented at the moment though I feel most encounters do not really lend themselves very well to archery anyway when in a party dynamic. Thus, the Ranger will remain the ugly step-sister of character classes.

[Bohemond]

Gotcha, thanks Zenako for clarifying and thanks Bohemond for bringing it up.

Its worth noting that that this issue is also a point of confusion for a number of PnP players as well. Thanks for elucidating my overly cryptic response, Zenako. I don't mean to dismiss criticisms of ranged attack, but if there is a problem, it is with ranged combat as a whole, not with the manyshot feat.