Melee abomination builds...

[slarden]

I am certainly not opposed to certain tweaks to vistani or arcane warrior. The points raised certainly make sense.

My main observation is that these perceived problems don't significantly change dungeon clearing speed or the ability of a group to complete content.

Outside of high end raiding maxing out dps isn't always the optimal answer.

[Tilomere]

The underlying bug being exploited is that warlock C5 TS 10% attack speed is applying whether or not you have the enhancement, causing the Core 1 ES to tick faster than 6 seconds, enabling building AW stacks.

I would be fine with fixing that bug. Nerf melees by bug fixing warlocks!

/sign if you agree!

[Kaladynn]

Y'all are just mad you didn't figure this out sooner. This build has been around for years now, minus the arcane warrior and warlock level. Using VKF on a melee has been a good option for a while, it's nothing new. Arcane warrior is great for an EK character, melee attacks build up spell power and allow you to do more damage. Doing the inverse and using passive spells to build up melee power isn't anything game breaking, it's simply clever thinking. It's ultimately a maximum of 20 mp that stacks slowly and dissipates quickly when not in combat. Additionally, the aura is NOT hitting quicker than it should. If you actually read the tooltip maybe you'd see that it clearly states it's supposed to tick once every 5 seconds. Even if the aura were hitting a "whole" 10% quicker than it should that doesn't mean jack. An extra 10% equates to building 11 stacks in 50 seconds instead of 10.

[slarden]

The underlying bug being exploited is that warlock C5 TS 10% attack speed is applying whether or not you have the enhancement, causing the Core 1 ES to tick faster than 6 seconds, enabling building AW stacks.

I would be fine with fixing that bug. Nerf melees by bug fixing warlocks!

/sign if you agree!

In general fixing things that are not working as intended should be a bigger priority than balance changes - including this issue. Definitely fix the bug.

[Xaxx]

Maybe its time for Vanguard to spin out to its own Universal tree...its not like S&B fighting is super OP anyway, and that'd mesh well with other builds like EK and Swashbuckler too, as well as give a melee boost for classes like Cleric and Warlock that have lackluster native support. Just make sure it gets +1/+1 crit baked in while holding a shield.

Though I dont know what you'd replace it with for Fighter that isnt just "Kensei II"



First off, just because an oversight is old doesnt mean its not still an oversight....pleeeeenty of examples of imbalanced mechanics that were left for years before being addressed

Arcane Warrior is meant to support a hybrid playstyle, where you're actively attacking and casting. What's wrong about Aura triggering it is it's entirely passive - I dont think any other source of persistent/passive damage will trigger it. That's what makes it different...you arent required to stop attacking (and therefore lose a round of DPS) and actually cast a spell to build a stack.

That's why, to use your example, casters dont try to whack mobs with their scepters to build stacks of Spellpower. Its not worth the lost round of DPS. That's also why melees dont, say, splash Fatesinger and spam the Epic Strike to build stack, even though you can stay pure that way.

If you want to splash /2 Lock and spam Burst to build stacks, I'm OK with that. If you want to splash /1 Wiz and spam MM SLAs, I'm fine with that too. Or use any Racial SLA. I just think that it should require 1 button press for every 1 stack that's built.

You know what your ok and not ok with here doesnt really matter in the absolute slightest.... its a blast shape, so if any of the other 4 blast shapes stack it then auras has to also..saying burst spam to stack it simply shows the bias your working with, you'll spite any other build using it just because you dont like its splash potential... I remember 2 rogue and then 2 monk being SO BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOKEN because evasion and all it cost you was your capstone.....

You also need to remember they have fixed aura and blast shapes in general interacting weirdly with epic feats (mental honing stacking) yet this was always left alone... once again you have to argue its not a spell as for other persistent spells not activating it and ek things, its because of the properties of death aura that have been asked about many times here and the way the spell is flagged....I dare you to ask them to change the flagging of all blast shapes to have their flagging changed... LOOOOL you will have every warlock player on these boards baying for dev and your sticky red fluids in about 3 days after they break warlocks.

Also last interaction for aura for me to point out was old tree shape, pos aura, death aura, blast aura were your 3 main ways of stacking tree charges, pos aura would stack it on healing, death aura could stack it on both but it was flagged the way it is because of its healing interaction and not causing damage to you. Then you have wave the blast aura and it stacked it also with no healing stacks thrown in because it doesnt heal.... means its flagged and ment to be flaggedd as an offensive spell... i will let you figure out where that makes it stand with the way arcane warrior is intended to operate.

[Tilomere]

Speaking of abominations and arcane warrior, did SF get nuked out of high reaper with the spellcasting nerfs? I mean, the SF abilities already broke arcane warrior and set it to 0, and I have no clue what they are considered as for various effects.

[draven1]

And let's get a universal tree with an STR based trance. Yes it's ridiculous but so is DEX and you've already crossed that rubicon.

Barbarian Rage, not universal tree, but, it's STR based trance.

[Bjond]

My only problem with VKF is the overabundance of fluffy buttons. It's a ridiculously mash-happy tree. Any ability that gives a 10s buff with a 10s CD should be a passive. Active abilities should always have a HUGE visceral effect -- they need to give nice fun feedback to give you the feeling that your actions are interacting with the world. That's what makes for immersive play.

Pressing buttons that feel like an auto-attack in terms of effect for no greater reason than to maintain buffs is simply bad design. Action combat does not mean "press lots of buttons". It means actions feel big and vital.

[Tilomere]

My only problem with VKF is the overabundance of fluffy buttons.

That's why the tree is primarily used with axes, falchions, and great swords.

[droid327]

You know what your ok

That's as far as I could bother to read of all that, so thanks *finger guns* you're pretty cool too

[Arkat]

causing the Core 1 ES to tick faster than 6 seconds, enabling building AW stacks.

Faster than every 6 seconds? So what??

According to the Wiki, it's supposed to proc every 5 seconds with the first core.

Sorry...but no bug.

[Arkat]

I think aura probably shouldn't trigger arcane warrior either

As long as that aura can do damage, it's effectively a spell as far as Warlocks are concerned. It should def. trigger Arcane Warrior for them.

[Mamalian]

Barbarian Rage, not universal tree, but, it's STR based trance.

No, that just stupid thinking.

[Monkey_Archer]

I'd say the real problem with so-called 'abomination' builds, is not so much that 1 warlock level or a universal tree gives extra melee power, but rather that virtually all melee trees give none.

So of course melee builds are going to 'abuse' the only source of melee power in heroic trees.

[Bjond]

not so much that 1 warlock level or a universal tree gives extra melee power, but rather that virtually all melee trees give none.

That's a very good point.

There's far too much artificial flavor in class trees. VKF has none or rather only all-natural spicy flavor (flavor that actually does something).

DH is a great example with all the utterly pointless AP it has, such as AP locked to the Pet before you can take the +3 Imbue. Pets do only one thing in DDO: die. Are the NPCs just oblivious to their own world? There should be a band of druids roving the game hunting down and killing players with a pet for cruelty to animals.

Almost every AP spent in VKF does something nice for the character while still remaining thematic to the tree. Same thing for INQ, though the end result doesn't compete at cap due to DS/2 scaling.

IMHO, there's really not a class tree in the game that isn't in a dire need of flavor-flushing. Get rid of ALL artificial flavor. Make it natural; ie. every AP spent should help the character perform in game. If you're clever enough, you should be able to do that in a way that matches the flavor you want for the tree. Adding AP-wasteful things to a tree for the sake of flavor doesn't make a tree "cool", it makes the tree pointless and unable to compete with the trees that did it right.

[droid327]

As long as that aura can do damage, it's effectively a spell as far as Warlocks are concerned. It should def. trigger Arcane Warrior for them.

Yes, but as I pointed out earlier, every other spell that triggers it requires some kind of activity that precludes doing something else. I'm not saying its not a spell, I'm saying its such a unique spell that it warrants being an exception

No other hybrid melee-caster can build stacks totally passively. That's a significant difference, enough to supersede the academic idea of "spells are spells". Even for actual ES locks, who still ostensibly should be using their Bursts anyway. But even moreso when it creates unintended cheese like straight melee builds benefiting from a hybrid ability without actually having hybrid gameplay.