Melee abomination builds...

[kuzka111]

when will it end , im sick of the new meta op builds...

im mean why atm to get max dps you have to be in vistani capstone bc 20 mp 5 attack speed and 2 ability \

and you have to get 1 warlock bc, 1 warlock gives you Eldritch aura + Arcane warrior gives you another 20 mp

so atm 18 barb 1 fvs 1 warlock or 18 fighter 1 fvs 1 warlock

im prue class lover and i cant stand seeing this...

[thegreatcthulhu]

when will it end , im sick of the new meta op builds...

im mean why atm to get max dps you have to be in vistani capstone bc 20 mp 5 attack speed and 2 ability \

and you have to get 1 warlock bc, 1 warlock gives you Eldritch aura + Arcane warrior gives you another 20 mp

so atm 18 barb 1 fvs 1 warlock or 18 fighter 1 fvs 1 warlock

im prue class lover and i cant stand seeing this...

Yeah I don't like it either... that Visanti tree especially annoys me because of the extra enhancement points being wasted.

[Kivandel]

And you better be Razorclaw wearing wraps, because of some interesting things with animation.

[spifflove]

when will it end , im sick of the new meta op builds...

im mean why atm to get max dps you have to be in vistani capstone bc 20 mp 5 attack speed and 2 ability \

and you have to get 1 warlock bc, 1 warlock gives you Eldritch aura + Arcane warrior gives you another 20 mp

so atm 18 barb 1 fvs 1 warlock or 18 fighter 1 fvs 1 warlock

im prue class lover and i cant stand seeing this...

Storms eye beats Vistani capstone by a wide margin so your pure barbarians are safe. Vistani builds need numerous past lives to be op.

[Nite_Prowler]

im prue class lover and i cant stand seeing this...

I have a pure lvl 32 barbarian that is an absolute brute and is all but unstoppable.

Methinks you don't know how to build your toons properly.

[Mamalian]

Yeah I don't like it either... that Visanti tree especially annoys me because of the extra enhancement points being wasted.

What especially annoying is how many classes need to spend points in Vistani to get Haste Boost. Removing Haste Boost from Legendary Dreadnought was a stupid decision.

[adamkatt]

Why concern yourself with what others perceive as fun? I like pure classes as well but i do enjoy my 18/2 bard rogue but thats as far as i go.

[droid327]

I think it's probably an oversight that the vistani capstone doesn't require daggers. I think aura probably shouldn't trigger arcane warrior either

The issue isn't with multi classing, it's just with cheesing a few specific mechanics

[Valtan]

when will it end , im sick of the new meta op builds...

im mean why atm to get max dps you have to be in vistani capstone bc 20 mp 5 attack speed and 2 ability \

and you have to get 1 warlock bc, 1 warlock gives you Eldritch aura + Arcane warrior gives you another 20 mp

so atm 18 barb 1 fvs 1 warlock or 18 fighter 1 fvs 1 warlock

im prue class lover and i cant stand seeing this...

More options for melee are always good - remember 90% of R10 toons were casters and hence U59 caster nerf. Melee is long way away to solo R8+ like casters do. I am still waiting for barb specific epic and legendary feats so i can play a proper D&D game rather than this commoner class c**p.

[Xaxx]

I think it's probably an oversight that the vistani capstone doesn't require daggers. I think aura probably shouldn't trigger arcane warrior either

The issue isn't with multi classing, it's just with cheesing a few specific mechanics

As is my understanding, aura has triggered arcane warrior since its inception for anyone wishing to sample a form of melee warlock... this should change now why? They chose to change the hp bonus interactions and remove a spell limitation.... would you say now that that limitation needs to be put back in for everything that it helped to block for any melee that chose to use it? If so there much nerfage ahead for any melee be it class or tree that uses a blue bar.

Would you complain about someone using arcane warrior attacking something and gaining spell power, should we perhaps limit this to only weapons a warlock is proficient with? No? Your not concerned of that part just the Your offensive spells grant you a stack of Arcane Warrior: Physical (+1 Melee and Ranged Power). Do we really need to get into if edlritch blast is a spell??

Have fun making your pitch that an intended spell shouldnt trigger something its own intent should trigger....

Had alot more typed out here but meh I'm not getting into it... this is a lesson people should have already learned... you see someone do something, it doesnt mean you can do it with the build. No matter what someone who already posted in the thread thinks not any sorc do any any r8+... I mean there are what half a dozen players in the game that can take their caster and solo ANY r8 non raid... if that many.. yet you wanna make it sound like anyone can....

How many juggernaughts did Cetus spawn back in the day... there was a time when you couldnt go anywhere without seeing some version of a centered bladeforged... yet no one got the mileage out of that build like Cetus.... why am i getting that vibe again here.... uhg

Only thing Ill point out about vistani is if your gonna use the capstone and your not a dagger user, how many aps are you throwing away... 15... 20? There may be certain levels of insanity in throwing away a quarter of your ap...

oh well said my 2 cents

[Ambitious]

More options for melee are always good - remember 90% of R10 toons were casters and hence U59 caster nerf. Melee is long way away to solo R8+ like casters do. I am still waiting for barb specific epic and legendary feats so i can play a proper D&D game rather than this commoner class c**p.

And now, after the caster nerf, only 10% of R10 toons are damage dealing casters, because they have been reincarnated into dc casters or completely different classes. That's off topic though.

Back to the topic
Regarding Auralock + Arcane Warrior:
Not as strong as it seems. In order for you to get the stacks up fast, you need to get more than the first core in enlightened spirit, otherwise the ticks are too slow. Don't forget that you lose those stacks very fast, once you are not damaging enemies with your aura. So you need to invest a bit in the tree, which brings us to the next point

Evil overpowered Vistani Knife Fighter
It is true, that the core is absolutely amazing. It is also true, that there are nice things to have in the tree, like immunity to level drain. To have access to the capstone, you have to spend 40 points in the enhancement tree. Try doing that when you are not actually using a knife. You will quickly realize that you are spending tons of points for things that will never benefit you. Look at the cores besides capstone. You are not getting much there. Which brings us back to the previous point: AP expentiture

41 AP Vistani
11 AP for moderate Aura ticks (=core3)
04 AP Divine Might

That leaves 24 points to be spent on your main class. Not much at all, considering you didn't get that much until now. Add it all up. You will see that you could do better by staying pure in say, barbarian.

The underlying idea is intriguing, it is playable, but I have yet to see a 18x/1wlk/1fvs build that is better than my pure barbarian. Please note, I am not saying that a pure barbarian is "the best", I am just saying that mine is better than the wlk1/fvs1/vistani capstone builds I have seen so far.

[Valtan]

And now, after the caster nerf, only 10% of R10 toons are damage dealing casters, because they have been reincarnated into dc casters or completely different classes.
The underlying idea is intriguing, it is playable, but I have yet to see a 18x/1wlk/1fvs build that is better than my pure barbarian. Please note, I am not saying that a pure barbarian is "the best", I am just saying that mine is better than the wlk1/fvs1/vistani capstone builds I have seen so far.

Pure barb with vistani 41/FB 30/remaining what-ever is also quite interesting and playable, but you lose 5% hp bonus and 30% helpless damage from falconry. So many options for barb whether you want to go pure or multi-class, and the class is in really good position for high reapers in a "party".

[KoobTheProud]

Easy fix here: just change all Vistani tree effects to require dagger or throwing knife in hand. It might even be time to look at adding kukri's in that equation.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Multiple levels to this phenomenon.

First is VKF itself. The reasons VKF is extremely advantageous:
1) It is a universal tree, therefore it does not require any specific class levels including 20th which allows for non-pure builds to still access a strong capstone enhancement.
2) Despite wasting an unpleasant amount of points if you are not a knife user, what you get from VKF for 40 points is not terrible and can out-compete other options. Part of the reason VKF is so good for specifically Fighter is that the Kensei capstone is situationally terrible (easy to waste the DStrike) and non-SnB builds only have one tree to put points into for DPS. So while you might look at spending 20 points on flat bonuses to daggers as waste...where else are you really going to spend those points?
3) Related directly to the above point, DDO has become a trinity style game to a very significant degree: you are a tank OR you are a DPS, etc. Wasting points isn't really a waste if it still represents your best option for increasing DPS.

I definitely would like to see VKF capstone restricted to daggers only but there are a couple problems with that. First would be monetization (which relates to the whole "MC is optimal" design in general); if VKF is required to be the best melee DPS then you are incentivized to spend money. If they haven't nerfed it after 5(?) years, I doubt they are ever going to bother as it only represents a potential gain for balance at the cost of effort and potential profit, however small now. Secondly, if VKF were restricted to daggers only, I think that non-SnB DPS Fighter would instantly be dead (perhaps DPS Fighter as a whole, not sure how competitive SnB DPS is) because it would lose VKF capstone and have nothing to fall back on. Either changing the benefits provided by Kensei capstone to be less prone to waste or allowing Double Strike to roll over 100% as Double Shot does (this seems like the more straightforward solution given the inevitability of power creep) would be nice. I think Battle Trances are a major balance problem that the game would be healthier without, although they will mostly likely stay because people will cry about anything and there doesn't seem to be any particular sufficient incentive for SSG to actually strive for balance.


The second reason is that VKF enables Battle Trances. You don't have to be pure to get a powerful capstone because anyone can abuse VKF, which means you can take 1 level of FvS for Divine Will which is cheaper, more accessible, and more powerful than the Battle Trances from universal trees. With proper investment, which is honestly trivial considering power creep, Divine Will's bonus to-hit exceeds available bonuses from gear and the damage bonus vastly exceeds bonuses available from gear. There's absolutely no reason not to do this for Fighter, other classes are more debatable.


Lastly, with one level remaining it's just a question of what gives you the most bang for your buck. Monk is pretty good for Fighter. Wlk is good in general. I think Wlk may be popular right now simply because it allows light armor to be used. I do think the in the case of Wlk being used as a one level splash to round out a build: it is a bit powerful for level 1 of a class + 1 enhancement point + 1 feat to be free AoE damage and 20 MP, and also a bit inconsistent regarding how they view the appropriate power of heroic/epic tier effects. Occasionally they have used epic>heroic as an excuse to leave some heroic feat/enhancement super weak with no other "good" reason on the table.


Shifter is a whole other issue, I think. I assume it's OP because it enables very high RoA for non-Monk builds which are generally not balanced around that.

[Mamalian]

The underlying idea is intriguing, it is playable, but I have yet to see a 18x/1wlk/1fvs build that is better than my pure barbarian. Please note, I am not saying that a pure barbarian is "the best", I am just saying that mine is better than the wlk1/fvs1/vistani capstone builds I have seen so far.

Have you tried opening your eyes? it's the first step in seeing.

[Mamalian]

Easy fix here: just change all Vistani tree effects to require dagger or throwing knife in hand. It might even be time to look at adding kukri's in that equation.

This argument may be reasonable, especially the kuri part.

Is this a good place to kvetch about the Fighter class only having ONE offensive tree? Sorry Vangaurd doesn't count.

[Mamalian]

And let's get a universal tree with an STR based trance. Yes it's ridiculous but so is DEX and you've already crossed that rubicon.

[Baahb3]

I am still waiting for barb specific epic and legendary feats

When are we going to see a lvl 30 Legendary feat for tank characters? I am sick of taking celestia just for the HPs. Give us something that is actually useful for a melee tank.

Ideas:
Absorption of Elemental damage
Absorption of Alignment damage
Absorption of Physical damage
Legendary boost to AC
Legendary boost to Dodge + Dodge Cap (applying to both armor and tower shields)
Chance to defend with +100% MRR or PRR
Some sort of guard that scales off of PRR instead of MP or SP
Large boost to blocking DR that (applies to both Physical and Magical damage)

Anything would be better than our available choices.

[superevbully]

Have you tried opening your eyes? it's the first step in seeing.

lololololololololol yeah love claims from ee runs or less?..lol good post

[droid327]

This argument may be reasonable, especially the kuri part.

Is this a good place to kvetch about the Fighter class only having ONE offensive tree? Sorry Vangaurd doesn't count.

Maybe its time for Vanguard to spin out to its own Universal tree...its not like S&B fighting is super OP anyway, and that'd mesh well with other builds like EK and Swashbuckler too, as well as give a melee boost for classes like Cleric and Warlock that have lackluster native support. Just make sure it gets +1/+1 crit baked in while holding a shield.

Though I dont know what you'd replace it with for Fighter that isnt just "Kensei II"

As is my understanding, aura has triggered arcane warrior since its inception for anyone wishing to sample a form of melee warlock... this should change now why?

Your not concerned of that part just the Your offensive spells grant you a stack of Arcane Warrior: Physical (+1 Melee and Ranged Power). Do we really need to get into if edlritch blast is a spell??

Have fun making your pitch that an intended spell shouldnt trigger something its own intent should trigger....

First off, just because an oversight is old doesnt mean its not still an oversight....pleeeeenty of examples of imbalanced mechanics that were left for years before being addressed

Arcane Warrior is meant to support a hybrid playstyle, where you're actively attacking and casting. What's wrong about Aura triggering it is it's entirely passive - I dont think any other source of persistent/passive damage will trigger it. That's what makes it different...you arent required to stop attacking (and therefore lose a round of DPS) and actually cast a spell to build a stack.

That's why, to use your example, casters dont try to whack mobs with their scepters to build stacks of Spellpower. Its not worth the lost round of DPS. That's also why melees dont, say, splash Fatesinger and spam the Epic Strike to build stack, even though you can stay pure that way.

If you want to splash /2 Lock and spam Burst to build stacks, I'm OK with that. If you want to splash /1 Wiz and spam MM SLAs, I'm fine with that too. Or use any Racial SLA. I just think that it should require 1 button press for every 1 stack that's built.