Scrolls & clickies use while being raged

[mamant91]

Dear developers.
Please add more possibilities for ragers to use scrolls/clickies while being under effect of Barbarian Rage.
Thanks.

[C-Dog]

Kinda one of the premises of "Rage", is that you're too enraged to do anything remotely technical or focused. No Searching, no spellcasting (normally)... and no clickies. <shrug>

[Captain_Wizbang]

Dear developers.
Please add more possibilities for ragers to use scrolls/clickies while being under effect of Barbarian Rage.
Thanks.

NO

Kinda one of the premises of "Rage", is that you're too enraged to do anything remotely technical or focused. No Searching, no spellcasting (normally)... and no clickies. <shrug>

Agreed

[JOTMON]

Rage is RAGE.. as far as I am concerned the restriction is valid.


They should go further to better control the easy access players have to basically no fail resources..

for every player....

~Scroll casting should require standing still uninterrupted for the duration of accurately reciting intricate runes from a piece of parchment

~add interruption fail for potion drinking while moving or in combat with a choke damage on a crit fail roll '1'


Wouldn't mind seeing barbarian rage version of splash contact potions using a crush potion bottle against head animation..

[Xgya]

No.

If you want access to actual magic (like use-activated magical items - clickies and scrolls) use while enraged, find one of those features that lets you use magic while enraged.
There's already a few out there.

[Saekee]

Rage is RAGE.. as far as I am concerned the restriction is valid.


They should go further to better control the easy access players have to basically no fail resources..

for every player....

~Scroll casting should require standing still uninterrupted for the duration of accurately reciting intricate runes from a piece of parchment

~add interruption fail for potion drinking while moving or in combat with a choke damage on a crit fail roll '1'


Wouldn't mind seeing barbarian rage version of splash contact potions using a crush potion bottle against head animation..

/signed

[Bjond]

Kinda one of the premises of "Rage", is that you're too enraged to do anything remotely technical or focused. No Searching, no spellcasting (normally)... and no clickies. <shrug>

It depends on the operational complexity of the device. While raged characters can't operate "complex" machinery, the PHB absolutely grants them the ability to do things like pull a lever on an extremely complex device if that's all that's needed to start it up. So, it's not the complexity of the device (wand or scroll) that matters. It's the complexity of the actions required to use it.

Based on how wands and other "clickies" are used in game (point & shoot or just at-will activate), those absolutely fall under the "not complex to use" rule and should not be even remotely effected by rage.

Scrolls and things that require an active skill check, though, would probably depend on whether your skill is considered "over-kill" for the device in question; eg. if you have 2x the UMD needed to use something, that action counts as trivial and should be exempt from rage restrictions. IMHO, rage should simply cut UMD in half while it's active and let the usual mechanics prevail.

Spells are called out explicitly as too complex to cast while raged unless you have specific training. I don't know about SLAs, though. Those are usually at-will actions and thus not complex; eg. a spell is like a having access to a robotic arm that (with enough fine-motor skill) you can use to grab things. An SLA is like a real arm (\and you can use your real arms while raged.

---

From a game-play perspective, I absolutely hate playing rage-builds precisely because of the restrictions. Rage gives very VERY little and costs a ton -- no spells, no clickies, no scrolls, no wands, no trapping, and locked into a STR build. I do have one barbarian I like playing a lot, but that's because it's a shifter with rage-casting built into it.

BTW, that's OK. I don't feel slighted or cut-off from playing by my dislike for DDO's (grossly incorrect ) interpretation and implementation of rage-costs. There's plenty of other builds to play.

[adamkatt]

What would the bestamist barbarian have to say about this?

[Xgya]

Based on how wands and other "clickies" are used in game (point & shoot or just at-will activate), those absolutely fall under the "not complex to use" rule and should not be even remotely effected by rage.

You just described almost all spells in DDO, period; not just wands.
Click button, wizard points, things die.

In DDO, we skip the whole "flaunting around with the wand while chanting the key rune needed to activate the spell within" part. The fact we skip it for video game reasons doesn't suddenly make UMD a non-complex skill, or activating an item containing a spell you don't need to use UMD for (such as a wand containing a spell of your class, or a clickie) isn't a complex action.

It LOOKS simple, but most magic does. It's what you DON'T see that makes it complex.

[Bjond]

You just described almost all spells in DDO, period; not just wands.

Wands that require UMD or another skill to use obviously fall under the "complex action" rule, since they require a skill check. Any "at will" or free-action ability (such as clickies) are obviously not too complex for the same reason: no skill required, just like there's no skill check for walking.

SLAs are a grey area. Are they simple free-actions or are they complex? They're usually described as at-will, perhaps subject to various limitations (such as per day). So, I'd rule those as not-complex. They might take skill to acquire or "load", but not to use; eg. you can use a gun or drive a car while raged, but you might not be able to reload it (musket) or replace the spark-plugs.

'Course D&D is pure "make believe". You can always make up stories to justify whatever game behavior you desire; eg. magical SLAs access the weave and rage cuts off access to the weave. Voila, no SLA "spells" while raged with a simple story line.

IMHO, classic D&D rage is pretty ludicrous on virtually all fronts. Using skill-checks as a litmus is just what I would have done because it looks sensical in a situation already chock full of nonsense.

[Seph1roth5]

Makes sense for wands or scrolls, but it's ridiculous to not be able to use stuff like sharn ticket.

[Onyxia2019]

Being enraged means all higher brain functions take a backseat.
The ability to focus and critical thinking goes out the window.
Essentially you revert to a primitive mind set. Your vision narrows aka tunnel vision.

Enraged is not just being very mad it is an entire altered state of being.
In this state you are more likely to smash through the door than to look for a lever to open it.

[Xgya]

IMHO, classic D&D rage is pretty ludicrous on virtually all fronts. Using skill-checks as a litmus is just what I would have done because it looks sensical in a situation already chock full of nonsense.

The trick is looking at complexity and usage. Skill checks just ain't it (Spot and Listen are skills. I've heard of blind rage, but barbarians literally going blind because they get angry, while funny, would be a bit off)

If I'd only make it related to skill checks, it would mean a Half-Elf Wiz Dilettante Barbarian could still use wands while raging, because using low level wands for them no longer involves a skill check.
The fact an item that activates a spell doesn't require a skill check doesn't suddenly make it not a complex action; it just means the action might be complex, but comprehensive enough that you can no longer fail at it so bad it doesn't work.

The "is it a complex thing, then no" rule is there because it left room for interpretation at a table.
In DDO, activating a clickie is considered complex, while Spot checks, Sneak and hitting things with axes aren't.

[dunklezhan]

Makes sense for wands or scrolls, but it's ridiculous to not be able to use stuff like sharn ticket.

^^that's true.

Other than that I agree rage prevents this stuff for a reason. Wands need to be used with a button or a phrase. You'd snap the wand or just snarl incoherently because you're just too angry.

Spells need finger waggling, and sometimes words and sometimes you have to fish around in pockets and do a little dance and even concentrate for a few minutes but honestly, you're just too angry to bother with that stuff, and have the urge to smash instead.

Scrolls need to be unrolled and like, read and stuff. AAAA FRUSTRATING STUPID PAPER THING! You're just too angry.

You also shouldn't be able to lock pick or do traps (and I think you can't) - you're just too angry.

Clickies also probably ought to be thought of as 'simple action command' items not 'at will' - they have limited charges after all. Maybe you have to rub them, or speak a command phrase, or imagine an orange or something... either way: you're just... too... ANGRY.

[Silverleafeon]

One of my more memorable lives was my first Barbarian life while seeking completionist.

After theory-crafting it out, I got some advice from a friend:

Me: "I want to take two levels of rogue (one at first level and one much later on) so I can see if Barbarians with a lot of skill points can trap, but I cannot trap while I rage."

Friend: "You can always dismiss your rage. It is a class feature."


Later on while in a group doing Monastery with a zerging Favored Soul who would not heal, a Bard that just likes to sing songs and not heal, and a multi-class Sorcerer/class for past life, I did not rage any. I walked around with trapping gear and heal scrolls. The dungeon was finished and we moved on to the other quests in that Wilderness. I did punch a few foes with my heal scrolls accidentally, and was quite happy with someone else quickly knowing what to do in these complex dungeons.

By the way, Guild potions are usable by Barbarians (count your blessing, they did not always exist.)

[Bjond]

"You can always dismiss your rage

This is another of those nonsensical bits. If rage is so inherently wild you can't control yourself enough to perform simple (to you) actions, why can you turn it on and off like a light bulb?

[Onyxia2019]

This is another of those nonsensical bits. If rage is so inherently wild you can't control yourself enough to perform simple (to you) actions, why can you turn it on and off like a light bulb?

In truth you should not be able to without a descent cool down to regain senses.
Think Hulk turning back into Dr Banner (original Hulk not the new professor Hulk **** the MCU is pushing)

[axel15810]

I also have to say no. It's a compelling mechanic, having to choose between DPS and versatility/casting.

Now if the benefit is not worth raging for, then it's better to make rage benefits better to make giving up later things more worth it.

[bruener]

Im thinking no. Better use your clickies before you rage

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Historical Precedent: I don't think refusing to change something only because "this is the way it has always been", even if said something is bad/harmful/useless/unnecessary, is a very intelligent or productive mindset.

Lore/Flavor: Rage being an altered state of mind/tunnel vision that prohibits complex operations? I think this point is defensible due to the tunnel vision being anger related. OTOH, sometimes tunnel vision can be the result of focus/flow state and specific complex operations become easier. Also I think the descriptions just in this thread of what one is capable of or not while angry are diverse, inconsistent, and some of them nonsensical; if the limits of such a state of mind are too extreme or dependent upon an individual or circumstance, perhaps it isn't worth trying to emulate them.

Game Mechanics: Does this penalty truly add anything valuable to the game? Honestly I don't think so; part of the reason Barbs get the number of rages per rest that they do is because they are expected to cancel rage sometimes. If Barbs are meant to be kept simple for players who prefer that, it seems better to create a simple design rather than enforce a preference on players who don't agree. If we don't want Barbs to be casting healing spells there are other and better ways to do it; characters with mostly Fighter levels don't really cast spells because it isn't particularly viable, and the Fighters that do cast are generally paying for this with a significant multi-class. If we want to create distinctions between Ftr/Pal and Barb, UMD probably isn't the best place to draw that line; I would rather see diversity in the exact roles they fill or in the exact manner they fill their similar roles. I suppose without this penalty Rage would still be a somewhat finite resource, perhaps a slight reduction in number of rages per rest from various sources would be a reasonable trade-off for this change.

I don't really see a compelling reason to restrict players in this way. At the same time, periodically one encounters a hill some psycho is willing to die on "because it's always been this way" and this seems like one of those hills.

They should go further to better control the easy access players have to basically no fail resources..

for every player....

If you mean stuff that is both universally available and OP, I'm not against this. If you mean you want to add a roll that you are guaranteed to fail sometimes to everything, I think you must want the game to be more dead, if you aren't simply being a troll.

~Scroll casting should require standing still uninterrupted for the duration of accurately reciting intricate runes from a piece of parchment

I actually kind of like this idea. Though, if they go that far I would say they'd need to apply the same restriction to spell casting as well since spell casting is also reciting magical words of power and performing specific gestures. If they did implement this level of immersion, I would 100% support the Rage penalty on spell casting/UMD as a style/lore choice.

~add interruption fail for potion drinking while moving or in combat with a choke damage on a crit fail roll '1'

I support the above suggestion because it would create a truer representation of what spell casting in DnD is described as and would accentuate differences in play styles which I consider a positive in RPGs. RNG failure to drink potions in combat I don't think is a good idea because of the RNG (rolling a 1) component, and because I don't think drinking potions in combat is particularly frequent or meaningful. What does this affect? Drinking curse pots? So people might die more or be more annoyed in VoD not because of their own failure but because of RNG? I don't think remove curse will suddenly become particularly desirable. People will wait 20 seconds to drink curse/disease pots in WK? SF pots will have an additional negative associated to them? Is SF pot usage really a problem when the standard difficulty is r1+?

From a game-play perspective, I absolutely hate playing rage-builds precisely because of the restrictions. Rage gives very VERY little and costs a ton -- no spells, no clickies, no scrolls, no wands, no trapping, and locked into a STR build. I do have one barbarian I like playing a lot, but that's because it's a shifter with rage-casting built into it.

BTW, that's OK. I don't feel slighted or cut-off from playing by my dislike for DDO's (grossly incorrect ) interpretation and implementation of rage-costs. There's plenty of other builds to play.

I think this is a common sentiment, I also don't really like playing Barbs partly because of this. That said, are the costs of Rage really so extreme? Barbs have no spell casting support by default, so the Rage penalty only really affects MCs. Clickies and UMD don't really provide much benefit outside of healing and buffs, nobody carries scrolls of Otto's Dancing Ball or Mass Hold, the real penalty is the tedium of having to de- and re-enrage.

I also have to say no. It's a compelling mechanic, having to choose between DPS and versatility/casting.

Now if the benefit is not worth raging for, then it's better to make rage benefits better to make giving up later things more worth it.

I agree with the idea behind this, but it just doesn't represent the reality of DDO and likely can't in the case of Barb Rage. Fighter and Barb are balanced against each other assuming the Barb is Raged. Everything related to Rage in the game supports increasing Rage uptime because realistically Barb wants to be Raged 100% of the time and that is effectively achievable. What realistic situations can you think of where a Barb player actively wants to not be Raged? To re-buff and to do "complex operations". Have you ever heard a Barb player comment on what a well designed, compelling gameplay experience that is?

If Barb Rage was significantly stronger to reflect the gravity of the casting/UMD penalty, it would need to be a lot stronger. If it was a lot stronger and it had high uptime, what would really be the point of other melees? You wouldn't play a Fighter or Rogue over a Barb because of UMD and spell casting if the Barb was doing 20% more damage and dying 20% less. An increased benefit to Rage to compensate for the lack of spell casting also doesn't account for the current work-around: Dismiss Rage. If Rage is buffed people will simply reap the entirety of the increased benefit and behavior will be totally unchanged.