DDO Tieflings versus Doric in the New Movie

[Aelonwy]

When SSG brought tieflings to DDO, I know I, for one, asked to have just a few small horn, and normal eye options for those tieflings that are born looking closer to their humanoid parent and are better able to disguise their nature. I recall being told WotC signed off only on 5E tieflings... my interpretation being with horns from the wildebeests of Africa, the kind that absolutely would damage if not kill their mother on the way out.

So imagine my surprise, and pleasure seeing the new movie Honor Among Thieves with a tiefling main character that met my desires for a tiefling character e.g. more human-like with normal eyes, small horns, and more readily able to disguise herself as human with just a hood.



1. Small horns off the side of the head rather than planted squarely on the forehead. Closest approximation in DDO horns are 36/37 but they still emerge from the forehead making the forehead not smooth but looking like a pair of buttocks.

2. Normal smooth forehead, absolutely not possible with DDO tieflings.

3. Eyebrows, absolutely not possible with DDO tieflings.

4. Natural eyes with pupils and irises, not possible with DDO tieflings.

This is my request, yet again, for DDO to add at least 4 options to tiefling of small, easily hidden horns with a smooth forehead and eyebrows, and 4 options of normal eyes... the eye color selector could still remain it would just color the irises. They could reuse some of the eye options from Aasimar.

[Stradivarius]

Basically a human female with two little satyr horns.

I know, the current Tiefling avatars look way too demonic looking.

[Martininice]

I recall being told WotC signed off only on 5E tieflings... my interpretation being with horns from the wildebeests of Africa, the kind that absolutely would damage if not kill their mother on the way out.

playing wisenheimer here, that is why horned animals usually (exclusively?) develop horns after birth, typically with the onset of puberty

That being said, I absolutely support your cause. DDO Tiefling faces are as bad as they can get with their disproportionate horns and worst of all foreheads... oh my god, so much forehead...

[ShifterThePirate]

The new DND movie isn't very DND accurate though... I mean, they even had to put a Druid feat into 5e to let them change into Owlbears

And I don't think Tieflings should look that human. You have human for that or half humans

[Tricosene]

Maybe WoTC will be more open to other appearances for tieflings now. Not to mention that some new players, coming to the game because of the movie, could be disappointed at the limited options for DDO's tieflings.

[Drunkendex]

When tieflings were announced for DDO i expected Phiarlan Carnival tieflings, and looked forward to it.

What we got is herd leader of african buffalos.

On one server I have a toon called Horn***horns everywhere.

That toon was created when i was shocked to see what we got.

[mbartol]

The thing that bothers me is that there were options for small horns during the Lamannia preview.

[Aelonwy]

The new DND movie isn't very DND accurate though... I mean, they even had to put a Druid feat into 5e to let them change into Owlbears

And I don't think Tieflings should look that human. You have human for that or half humans

Tieflings like Aasimar do not come from any particular extra-planar race only that their ancestor is fiendish either demon or devil. That is they could come from a fiendish ancestor that has no horns at all and would thus not pass that trait on to its descendants. In 3.0 where I first played a tiefling in PnP a tiefling could have as few or as many fiendish traits as the player chose from a list of other-worldly traits including horns, scaled skin, skin that was extra-warm to the touch, glowing eyes, eyes that were all black, sharp fang-like teeth, a tail, sulphurous breath, etc.

Maybe WoTC will be more open to other appearances for tieflings now. Not to mention that some new players, coming to the game because of the movie, could be disappointed at the limited options for DDO's tieflings.

I thought about that too, could potentially be discouraging to some new players.

When tieflings were announced for DDO i expected Phiarlan Carnival tieflings, and looked forward to it.

What we got is herd leader of african buffalos.

I was disappointed somewhat as well. I wanted to make a tiefling rogue that could hide her nature. IMPOSSIBLE. And I wanted to be able to make a tiefling bard that looked as similar as possible to a Succubus... sort of possible however can't quite make the skin tone just right its more lavender or light red rather than pink/hot pink and no horns look quite the same and... any of the smaller horns leave that BUTT shaped forehead. BUTTOCKS. I see it. I cannot unsee it.

The thing that bothers me is that there were options for small horns during the Lamannia preview.

I don't remember that but its sad we didn't at least get a couple options for smaller horns rather than ALL these stolen taxonomy examples from the Natural History Museum.

[axiom21]

Didn't Sev & Cordo allude to a model pass for all of the avatars at some point? I hope besides blinking we do get some regular eyes and smaller horns - like the pre-existing Shavarath Tieflings / M. Cabal Tieflings we have - with smaller, slender horns on top of the head versus the massive crest.

It's a shame because Aasimar and Tieflings have some of the better skeletons and faces but the massive bull crests make them look more like Qunari from Dragon Age

All that to say, I agree, let's get some smaller horns or even a no horn / no tail or smaller tail option

[Aelonwy]

Didn't Sev & Cordo allude to a model pass for all of the avatars at some point?

You're right, I vaguely remember that mentioned in a livestream... Ask Sev livestream? But it wasn't thoroughly discussed, more like an "it's on the agenda, when we get around to it" remark. Its just that Archmage revamp has been "on the agenda" for years and keeps getting bumped to lower priority. I don't see this happening any time soon.

I hope besides blinking we do get some regular eyes and smaller horns - like the pre-existing Shavarath Tieflings / M. Cabal Tieflings we have - with smaller, slender horns on top of the head versus the massive crest.

It's a shame because Aasimar and Tieflings have some of the better skeletons and faces but the massive bull crests make them look more like Qunari from Dragon Age

All that to say, I agree, let's get some smaller horns or even a no horn / no tail or smaller tail option

Agreed. Plus they really outdid themselves with the model pass of Halfelves, it was an incredible change for the good. So here's to hope!

[Diracorvus]

I liked the old 3rd edition tieflings a lot more than what we have in DDO and 4th edition+. Honestly these newer tieflings look a bit like star trek aliens with their weird forehead and skin color. I like the more "human but with demon blood" 100% better. I can only guess the people that made that film had similar feelings.

[Eantarus]

Basically a human female with two little satyr horns.

That's all I want. Add in a toggle to disable the tail and I'd actually play tieflings.

[DaviMOC]

Diracorvus got it .

Old tiefling before 4th edition are like philarian ones while newer ones are like the playable races ones and thats the sign of those releases dates.

I remember reading in a D&D book, dont know witch one that Asimars and tieflings cant hide their race, they have obvious and notable features and cant pass as humans, making the newer ones a better representation of it.

Personally I love the playable tiefling from DDO, its one of those races that are very different from humans but the only one that actually looks good, the best looking IMO.

I havent see the movie yet. I guess they did that for practical reasons, its easier to make it on a live action and a more human like appearance also gives a better reception another possibility is that the setting in the movie its actually 3.5 or older. Do we have any Dragonborn there?

[Phoenicis]

I never liked the old Tieflings with their small horns, they didn't look very 'fiendish' to me.

The newer PC ones I like more.

That said, more options is better.

[thegreatcthulhu]

I am not holding my breath myself, but I do think it would be nice if we had some more customization options for tieflings. I do find it strange when you consider how human you can make an Aasimar look. But as DaviMoc noted up above, I actually do remember seeing something about that somewhere (the thing about how Tieflings and Aasimar are not able to hide their races).

[Aelonwy]

I remember reading in a D&D book, dont know witch one that Asimars and tieflings cant hide their race, they have obvious and notable features and cant pass as humans, making the newer ones a better representation of it.

I really can't say about 5.0 and I have NOT read the book of which you are speaking... but in 3.5:

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tiefling
Immediately under the stat chart:
"Many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans. Others have small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them, or even cloven feet. No two tieflings are the same."

My actual hardbound book Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (because I do NOT have Eberron Campaign Setting and Races of Eberron does NOT include Tiefling), under the chapter Characters, says "Some tieflings have a minor physical trait suggesting their heritage, such as pointed teeth, red eyes, small horns, the odor of brimstone, cloven feet, or just an unnatural aura of wrongness."

Races of Faerun, chapter Planetouched says "Tieflings look human except for one or two distinguishing features related to their unusual ancestor." Followed by a list of characteristics and the typical fiendish ancestor for those characteristics in parenthesis.

So I don't think it should be outright impossible to have a few tiefling choices for a more subtle appearance. I didn't ask to change everything about tieflings. I just want a few smaller horn, normal eyes with eyebrows options. And please SSG smoother, non-buttock shaped foreheads.

Edit: To Answer your question

Do we have any Dragonborn there?

Yes there were Dragonborn, Aarakocra and Tabaxi in the new movie so they could have made the choice for the Make-up artistry requisite for more DDO-like tieflings.

[DaviMOC]

I really can't say about 5.0 and I have NOT read the book of which you are speaking... but in 3.5:

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tiefling
Immediately under the stat chart:
"Many tieflings are indistinguishable from humans. Others have small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them, or even cloven feet. No two tieflings are the same."

I dont either, tried to find from where I was remembering but could not. Maybe it was only my interpretation from the bold part from this description :

" Tieflings tend to have an unsettling air about them, and most people are uncomfortable around them, whether they are aware of the tiefling’s unsavory ancestry or not. While some look like normal humans, most retain physical characteristics derived from their ancestor, with the most common such features being horns, non-prehensile tails, and pointed teeth.[6] Some tieflings also have eyes that are solid orbs of black, red, white, silver, or gold, while others have eyes more similar to those of humans.[6] Other, more unusual characteristics include a sulfurous odor, cloven feet, or prehensile tails rather than non-prehensile ones.[2] with the most common kind sticking up like ibex horns or curved like small ram horns, and the most exotic kind being leathery and somewhat flexible." https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tiefling_(3.5e_Other)


In another hand from the 4th and so on art and description are very objective on not subtle at all. Maybe I saw/read from 5e. At dnd & beyond :.

" Tieflings are derived from human bloodlines, and in the broadest possible sense, they still look human. However, their infernal heritage has left a clear imprint on their appearance. Tieflings have large horns that take any of a variety of shapes: some have curling horns like a ram, others have straight and tall horns like a gazelle’s, and some spiral upward like an antelopes’ horns. They have thick tails, four to five feet long, which lash or coil around their legs when they get upset or nervous." https://www.dndbeyond.com/races/7-ti...20or%20nervous

At wiki in 4th edition section we got:

" William O'Connor, the artist responsible for designing tieflings in this edition, commented that there were few artistic depictions of the race in previous editions. However, with the tiefling becoming a core player race, the 4th edition design team "wanted to radically update their appearance to make them look more intimidating and 'cool'. [...] The horns and the tail were the defining elements of the race so my first direction was to make them as prominent as possible. Part of the design of the 4th edition was to integrate the design into being a miniature game so part of the process was to make the character's silhouettes easily recognizable from a distance". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiefling

So we had an intentional change on it.

I do prefer true different races that dont look like humans doing some odd cosplay but, like Phoenicis, I'm all in favor for more customization and options and im not here to oppose your request, just happy to discuss the matter.

[Aelonwy]

So we had an intentional change on it.

Not so much responding to you as thinking aloud as it were...

Its an intentional change that simplifies character creation and homogenizes a very unique race that used to have a very wide and disparate background based on the incredible variety of fiends that could be the racial progenitor. E.g. by making ALL tieflings fit a certain mold its as if ALL tieflings are descended from the same fiend-type ancestor rather than ANY fiend type ancestor.

3.0/3.5 tieflings didn't ALL have tails, they didn't ALL have horns, they might have had cats eyes (Rakshasa ancestor) or hooves (devil), scaled skin (Maralith) or fur (Yugoloth).

I get that simplifying a race makes it easier to control stats about it and recognize its mini on the table but it absolutely takes away from the character creation and storytelling aspects. That is to say there are reasons my PnP group has stuck with 3.0/3.5 and only uses a few rules from 5.0. I get that SSG can't simply defy WotC, and I get that they can't translate ALL aspects of the PnP variety of the race to the character models of DDO but I don't see how a few normal eyes with eyebrows, small horn options with smooth forehead would be anathema to WotC race design with the new movie essentially supporting the 3.0/3.5 tiefling potential appearance.

[DaviMOC]

Not so much responding to you as thinking aloud as it were...

Its an intentional change that simplifies character creation and homogenizes a very unique race that used to have a very wide and disparate background based on the incredible variety of fiends that could be the racial progenitor. E.g. by making ALL tieflings fit a certain mold its as if ALL tieflings are descended from the same fiend-type ancestor rather than ANY fiend type ancestor.

3.0/3.5 tieflings didn't ALL have tails, they didn't ALL have horns, they might have had cats eyes (Rakshasa ancestor) or hooves (devil), scaled skin (Maralith) or fur (Yugoloth).

I get that simplifying a race makes it easier to control stats about it and recognize its mini on the table but it absolutely takes away from the character creation and storytelling aspects. That is to say there are reasons my PnP group has stuck with 3.0/3.5 and only uses a few rules from 5.0. I get that SSG can't simply defy WotC, and I get that they can't translate ALL aspects of the PnP variety of the race to the character models of DDO but I don't see how a few normal eyes with eyebrows, small horn options with smooth forehead would be anathema to WotC race design with the new movie essentially supporting the 3.0/3.5 tiefling potential appearance.

I guess they wanted more punchy features,as the designer said, that could give a more notable silhoutte.

DDO actually uses the 4th edition version like most modern digital DnD game uses (neverwinter and baldurs gate 3 that i remeber) that is also the default 5th edition tiefling. The 5th edition opens tiefling subraces, now the ancenstry is not that vague and we have a tiefling subrace for each hellish ancestor race. Im not sure but I do believe the ddo playable ones are actually the asmodeous descendants, the default 5e tiefling , the most common and human like ones but still with very notable features not being able to blend among humans.

[Bjond]

horns from the wildebeests of Africa, the kind that absolutely would damage if not kill their mother

Well, if you consider real kids (the capricious variety), the horns grow later.

BTW, I'm of the exact same opinion as Aelonwy on this one. Aesthetics are critically important. Bad art drags the entire game down. It is absolutely vital for characters to have consistent aesthetics. Good character art is far FAR more important than world-art. You can see this by the sales and popularity of the games that do focus on character art.

DDO in general has about the worst character art of ANY MMO I've ever played and I'm including OLD games like M59 & EQ1 or even games with funky art like WOW or Wildstar. Snatching art from here and there utterly destroys immersion. Tiefling and PDK art has absolutely no place whatsoever in DDO. The style is incompatible. The reason the funky-art games work aesthetically is because they stick to the theme and do not stray.

Personally, I like the more subtle fiendish ancestry indicators and think 5E horns style is ridiculously ugly, as if someone's 5th grader drew them and then the parent decided to force it into the game. I'm not an artist. So, I should never ever be able to look at a game's art and think "uh, I can do better".