Imbue Idea from Podcast

[EdsanDarkbane]

Was listening to DDO DM and there was a little snippet of talk about the Imbue changes.

I think we all agree that it was a welcome change. Anyway the talk was about expanding options and also equalizing the Die size.

Struck me that we should consider making all imbues a flat die maybe a d6? We could add a feat that raises the die up one step.

Another OPTIONAL feat for build diversity, one that uses the highest of melee, range, or universal power.

Does this upset the apple cart too much? Trying to get ahead of any developer only changes, I would like us to have some input.

[misterski]

Was listening to DDO DM and there was a little snippet of talk about the Imbue changes.

I think we all agree that it was a welcome change. Anyway the talk was about expanding options and also equalizing the Die size.

Struck me that we should consider making all imbues a flat die maybe a d6? We could add a feat that raises the die up one step.

Another OPTIONAL feat for build diversity, one that uses the highest of melee, range, or universal power.

Does this upset the apple cart too much? Trying to get ahead of any developer only changes, I would like us to have some input.

Not a fan of the feat idea. Many builds are feat starved as it is.

[DaviMOC]

Not a fan of any of those ideas to be honest.

There is differences for a reason. Each class/tree have its own toolkit and should have different strenghts and weakness. Imbues have different purpose and meaning in different builds/trees and I do believe thats intentional. Not saying that the system is perfect and dont need tunning and balance passes I just dont think equalization and normalization are good things to aim specially in a game like DDO.
Games like DDO needs more contrast, more reasons to choose one instead of another class/tree, not less.

[Hawkwier]

Not a fan of any of those ideas to be honest.

There is differences for a reason. Each class/tree have its own toolkit and should have different strenghts and weakness. Imbues have different purpose and meaning in different builds/trees and I do believe thats intentional. Not saying that the system is perfect and dont need tunning and balance passes I just dont think equalization and normalization are good things to aim specially in a game like DDO.
Games like DDO needs more contrast, more reasons to choose one instead of another class/tree, not less.

+1

[EdsanDarkbane]

Can you explain the difference in die size between EK and BE ? Distilling to the common denominator sees EK starting and stacking D8 scaling with spell power. A standard investment yielding 10d8.

In contrast, Battle Engineer starts with a d6 scaling with the same spell power. A standard investment yielding 4d6 with the added qualifier of always equipping a runearm.

I think the imbue system is a good addition. I see it is a song that is incomplete. A story unfinished. I think if we incorporate it into the d20 system fully we would have more build options, which would expand and compound the fun of using the imbue system.

Balancing Imbue die is a change that is coming, it will happen. The latest podcast episode barely touched on Imbue. But it really got me thinking about maybe we can talk about what we would like to see.

[DaviMOC]

Can you explain the difference in die size between EK and BE ? Distilling to the common denominator sees EK starting and stacking D8 scaling with spell power. A standard investment yielding 10d8.

Isnt that obivous? Imbue its the signature ability of an EK and the "new imbue" system somehow used it as a template. EK and AA are the imbue masters since before the new systems arrive. Its on the Tree theme, and mechancis.The atention to it was on the core of the EK tree and it is on the new one too.

Can you explain why Artificers can pick traps and Wizards cant? Or the difference beteween a barbarian health and a sorccerer? I know those comparsions are ridiculous but explains the point I trying to make. Not saying BE are equaly strong as EKs but the balance dosent need to be made on the same system. They can balance enforcing all other Artificer strenghts instead of making in equal to the imbue master.

Each one with its own benefits.
As I already said,the system welcomes balance, but balance dosent mean equality.

[EdsanDarkbane]

Isnt that obivous? Imbue its the signature ability of an EK and the "new imbue" system somehow used it as a template. EK and AA are the imbue masters since before the new systems arrive. Its on the Tree theme, and mechancis.The atention to it was on the core of the EK tree and it is on the new one too.

Can you explain why Artificers can pick traps and Wizards cant? Or the difference beteween a barbarian health and a sorccerer? I know those comparsions are ridiculous but explains the point I trying to make. Not saying BE are equaly strong as EKs but the balance dosent need to be made on the same system. They can balance enforcing all other Artificer strenghts instead of making in equal to the imbue master.

Each one with its own benefits.
As I already said,the system welcomes balance, but balance dosent mean equality.

Just trying.to start a conversation about what that balance looks like. My suggestion is to lower all imbue die to d6 And let players choose a feat that increases it by one die step to D8. That my friend is the beginning. Other suggestions could be additional feats that buff imbue die by one step after a crit this could be a duration effect with an internal cooldown. Again it's just the beginning,.I am interested in other perspectives! Thank you for your quick response! I really respect that you stand up for what you believe.

[DaviMOC]

Ha! Nice.

I love to debate, sometimes I may sound like I'm trying to pick a fight but thats not true.
I understand your point and it makes sense somehow.
I just dont agree with the actions suggested but it could turn out to be positive in the end.
Not trying to stop you on your or the podcast ideas too. Keep on =).

[EdsanDarkbane]

Ha! Nice.

I love to debate, sometimes I may sound like I'm trying to pick a fight but thats not true.
I understand your point and it makes sense somehow.
I just dont agree with the actions suggested but it could turn out to be positive in the end.
Not trying to stop you on your or the podcast ideas too. Keep on =).

I actually took the idea from a podcast. It's glosses over the imbue system...I think that the imbue system is more than a gloss over topic!

[droid327]

Imbues arent supposed to be flat. Some classes/trees are supposed to have better imbues than others. Homogenizing imbues would be imbalancing the system, not making it more fair.

Also, its not going to be a well-received idea when you're calling for a nerf and then forcing players to buy back their previous power. Charging a feat means they have to give up something else to get their D8s back. And Inquis are extra boned because they're D10s.

Also - BE gets 5 Imbue die in the tree, and 2 from Greater Elemental Weapons. EK gets 7 die, plus 2 conditional in the capstone, but those are going to have 50% uptime at best...so really they're only 1 die ahead of Arti.

[McLoopie]

I think we all agree that it was a welcome change.

I am going to have to stop you there . There is plenty of people that were (and still do) complain on the forums about the new system. If you don't have an Imbue toggle you are worse off than you were before. Elemental weapons gives you nothing if you don't have an imbue toggle. Weapon filigree damage switched to add imbue die which give you nothing if you don't have the previously mentioned imbue toggle. Etc.

[EdsanDarkbane]

I am going to have to stop you there . There is plenty of people that were (and still do) complain on the forums about the new system. If you don't have an Imbue toggle you are worse off than you were before. Elemental weapons gives you nothing if you don't have an imbue toggle. Weapon filigree damage switched to add imbue die which give you nothing if you don't have the previously mentioned imbue toggle. Etc.

Are saying that this change allowes SSG direct control of player damage...at end game and while leveling? Are you saying this is an easy out for class balance?

I am interested in your point of view. Thank you.

[McLoopie]

Are saying that this change allowes SSG direct control of player damage...at end game and while leveling? Are you saying this is an easy out for class balance?

I am interested in your point of view. Thank you.

Sorry not sure where you derived all that information from my post. I was just saying I saw people complaining about the changes in most (all?) of the threads about it, so it seemed strange to say "we all agree".