Save the Wildmen!

[erethizon]

Well, I accidentally found some information on it on the news program I normally watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65RAPsyJrww

[Bacab]

If this is because they are hard to animate or something, whatever.

If this is about appeasing people who find "offense" at everything, then don't.

How long until Evil Drow being dark skinned is "problematic"?

How long until Dwarves are offensive to short people or fat people...or short fat people?

I can find away to be "offended" by everything if I look hard enough. Trying to appease everyone is the only gauranteed way to fail.

Do the South Park thing and just make fun of everyone and have everyone sometimes be the hero or sometimes be the villain.

Looking at Fred the Friendly Mindflayer and the crazy Deva at the end of "Sunlight". (Those who don't know, the guy at the end of Sunrise, he's supposed to be an Angel that is a Beacon of Hope and goodness).

I like to escape the real world and its insanity. DDO has been a nice escape from that. Don't bring politics into a game.

I can name a few games that I quit and the reason (or one of the reasons) was that they got too political.

[droid327]

If this is about appeasing people who find "offense" at everything, then don't.

The scary thing is I dont think its even that...I think this is 100% dev-side and voluntary, they're self-radicalizing


------------------


Playerbase: ...

Devs: You're right, wildmen are racist and we should do something about it!

[cdbd3rd]

Cordovan stated that the change is something they wanted to do, not something for any "appeasement effort". We can only take his word as what it is. Really, even if this was all about the monsters being "problematic", they could have just said that the animation models had issues on the back end that made updating them not worth the effort and that it was easier to replace them with a more updated model. Most people would have said "ok, fair enough" and moved on. Instead, they leave it vague and leaving us to wonder why they would put any effort into this. With the way tabletop gaming has been going lately (orc are "problematic", half-races are "problematic") it leaves too much speculation on the change.

I like this paragraph. Quoted as /MeToo.

----------
Perhaps this news is a derail, or maybe not, depending on the real Wildman change issue - but anyhow...

Well, I accidentally found some information on it on the news program I normally watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65RAPsyJrww

/Props for the link 'zon.

This news.... I thought renaming demons and devils editions ago to appeas the panicked book-thumpers was bad. The more recent change of "race" to "species" is beyond words stupid, and now.... Deleting the half-races under the guise of 'racism' ... (Trying to find forum-safe words)

Let's just say I am seriously considering making my own video of me burning my 40+ year collection of books and materials.

[Kenpai]

How long until Evil Drow being dark skinned is "problematic"?

Well this was posted by WotC about 3 years ago so since about 3 years ago.

[Stradivarius]

If this is because they are hard to animate or something, whatever.

If this is about appeasing people who find "offense" at everything, then don't.

How long until Evil Drow being dark skinned is "problematic"?

How long until Dwarves are offensive to short people or fat people...or short fat people?

I can find away to be "offended" by everything if I look hard enough. Trying to appease everyone is the only gauranteed way to fail.

Do the South Park thing and just make fun of everyone and have everyone sometimes be the hero or sometimes be the villain.

Looking at Fred the Friendly Mindflayer and the crazy Deva at the end of "Sunlight". (Those who don't know, the guy at the end of Sunrise, he's supposed to be an Angel that is a Beacon of Hope and goodness).

I like to escape the real world and its insanity. DDO has been a nice escape from that. Don't bring politics into a game.

I can name a few games that I quit and the reason (or one of the reasons) was that they got too political.

It's a misconception that dwarves are fat. If you ever seen dwarves without a shirt they all have six packs!

[galamothreign]

I like to escape the real world and its insanity. DDO has been a nice escape from that. Don't bring politics into a game.

I can name a few games that I quit and the reason (or one of the reasons) was that they got too political.

Totally agreed... I hope DDO remains untouched by all this madness...

[ShotCaller]

In their own inimitable style, the wildmen have crashed the RACISM!!! party alongside:

barbecues
NFL ownership
highways
Cracker Barrel
Dr. Seuss
SpongeBob
math
sleep
cold weather
"Dunkirk"

Need to make a chips and booze run soon...

[C-Dog]

Where can we find this information.

o Google; keywords: D&D half-races remove

Lots of articles.

I always thought the Wildmen were in colossal bad taste...

Have to be careful about condemnations of "bad taste", as that can be purely subjective, and requires one to tell a story about the intention of someone they don't know, to project meaning that only ~might~ actually have been involved in the creation of such content. The bad taste can be solely in one's mouth, not in the fare sampled.

If you want to apply the same sort of logic to literature, one could say that "The Island of Dr. Moreau" and HG Well's "The Time Machine" are in bad taste for how they portray not-so-intelligent human-ish races - I, personally, would disagree, and so would many others.

Claiming that wildmen are somehow "racist" or "defamatory" or otherwise objectionable requires a LOT of personal projection. The way I see them is a spin off a cartoony mid-century stereotype of "cavemen". If you want to read in some commentary on evolution (or lack thereof), that's fine, but in the end it's fantasy, and as such has no bearing on reality (short of some Jungian interpretation), just like Orcs and Dwarves do not have to be seen as some subtle "social commentary" - accept them for what they are, in context of the game world, and move on.

Be brave, SSG. Don't do this nonsense.

In a word, this. The company has better things to spend their artists' time on, imo.

Edit:

Cordovan stated that the change is something they wanted to do, not something for any "appeasement effort"...

Hmmm... <shrug>

Again, I don't share the priority nor see the impetus, but nor will I complain about it. <shrug, again>

[Bacab]

Removing half-races is a strike against Mulattos.

Why is DnD so racist?

See? No matter what, once you start down this road, you will eventually offend someone.

[Hawkwier]

Removing half-races is a strike against Mulattos.

Why is DnD so racist?

See? No matter what, once you start down this road, you will eventually offend someone.

Yeah, hopefully those dumass enough to be triggered by this stuff. I mean who really cares if it's Wildmen or Bullywugs. If it moves away from unhelpful stereotypes then what harm does it actually do anyone. A month after these changes go live nobody sane will even care or remember. It's both funny and sad that folks should get upset by it in the first place. The bigger picture is this stuff is cynically used to distract from far more important issues - get folks angry about trivia and keep your foot on their necks because they are too focused on the set agenda to even notice you're doing it. When really, people shouldn't care, because there are far more important things to be concerned with.

So in this context, do it, or don't SSG. I could care less either way. But fix the bugs please. That matters.

[Villefere]

Yeah, hopefully those dumass enough to be triggered by this stuff. I mean who really cares if it's Wildmen or Bullywugs. If it moves away from unhelpful stereotypes then what harm does it actually do anyone. A month after these changes go live nobody sane will even care or remember. It's both funny and sad that folks should get upset by it in the first place. The bigger picture is this stuff is cynically used to distract from far more important issues - get folks angry about trivia and keep your foot on their necks because they are too focused on the set agenda to even notice you're doing it. When really, people shouldn't care, because there are far more important things to be concerned with.

So in this context, do it, or don't SSG. I could care less either way. But fix the bugs please. That matters.

That's your opinion, and I pray an unpopular one. You're making assumptions like the wildmen perpetuate unhelpful stereotypes or that unhelpful stereotypes even exist. Some of us care about the integrity of the IPs we love and hate seeing them changed by people who may think they're doing good but more often than not cause more division than solve any real problems. I really don't appreciate the gaslighting.

[Diracorvus]

Claiming that wildmen are somehow "racist" or "defamatory" or otherwise objectionable requires a LOT of personal projection. The way I see them is a spin off a cartoony mid-century stereotype of "cavemen". If you want to read in some commentary on evolution (or lack thereof), that's fine, but in the end it's fantasy, and as such has no bearing on reality (short of some Jungian interpretation), just like Orcs and Dwarves do not have to be seen as some subtle "social commentary" - accept them for what they are, in context of the game world, and move on.

I see this is some kind of culture war thing. Well, have fun with that. But leave me out of it, I never said anything of the kind. Everyone has a right to bad taste, but since it's their name on the product I think the devs can do whatever they want with it.

[Hawkwier]

That's your opinion, and I pray an unpopular one. You're making assumptions like the wildmen perpetuate unhelpful stereotypes or that unhelpful stereotypes even exist. Some of us care about the integrity of the IPs we love and hate seeing them changed by people who may think they're doing good but more often than not cause more division than solve any real problems. I really don't appreciate the gaslighting.

LOL! Gaslighting. Dearie me! Yesterday's chip wrappers in a game m8. Nobody should care about this. Really.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Most players are zerging through the quest so does it really matter if you're killing Bullywugs, Wildmen, or Kobalds? Most players have run Diplomatic Impunity a hundred times over and don't even go into the Wildman village so you're exposure to them consists of the poor forlorn, possibly lost group around the shrine. These 4 mobs are killed in .78 seconds. They are actually hard to even identify because they die so fast.

Now, maybe you say, but Marshall, I like lore. Alright, I hear you, I like lore as well. But there is no narrative reason Wildmen need to exist in Diplomatic Impunity. That village could literally be any monster or human race. Sahaugin? Sure, we are by the coast. Elves? Yeah, PCs always like rescuing elves. Kobolds? Of course, we love kobolds!

Beyond this quest, where else then are there Wildmen? Ataraxia. When was the last time you were in that slayer zone? Hardcore I'm guessing. Wildmen with the Dwarves honestly doesn't work anyway. Why not have regular dwarves there and we can have a simmering, state of war between Duergar and Dwarves? Add in a two-quest free pack to tie it all together. Restless Isles also has Wildmen and I know you've never been there except for Hardcore. Islands can be populated by anything. Some Wildmen randomly show up in Against the Demon Queen. I've always asked, why? Can easily be replaced by Trogdolytes. Wildmen also show up in Inspired Quarter for no particular reason except to function as captives mining something. We already have trolls doing this in Red Fens so an easy swap. Plus wouldn't trolls be more effective at mining anyway? I've probably missed some but I'm sure they are equally easily exchanged out.

One can look to be offended by Wildmen or can be offended that Wildmen are being removed. Or one can just move on. So I voted I don't care. But I really would like to see that Dwarven war in Ataraxia. That would be cool.

[ShotCaller]

Dwarves

...are being made taller.

[TedSandyman]

Just make every enemy an ooze or slime based. That would make "everyone" happy, right, at least for a few months?

Then you would offend the used car salesmen and lawyers.

[Ladius]

Most players are zerging through the quest so does it really matter if you're killing Bullywugs, Wildmen, or Kobalds? Most players have run Diplomatic Impunity a hundred times over and don't even go into the Wildman village so you're exposure to them consists of the poor forlorn, possibly lost group around the shrine. These 4 mobs are killed in .78 seconds. They are actually hard to even identify because they die so fast.

Now, maybe you say, but Marshall, I like lore. Alright, I hear you, I like lore as well. But there is no narrative reason Wildmen need to exist in Diplomatic Impunity. That village could literally be any monster or human race. Sahaugin? Sure, we are by the coast. Elves? Yeah, PCs always like rescuing elves. Kobolds? Of course, we love kobolds!

Beyond this quest, where else then are there Wildmen? Ataraxia. When was the last time you were in that slayer zone? Hardcore I'm guessing. Wildmen with the Dwarves honestly doesn't work anyway. Why not have regular dwarves there and we can have a simmering, state of war between Duergar and Dwarves? Add in a two-quest free pack to tie it all together. Restless Isles also has Wildmen and I know you've never been there except for Hardcore. Islands can be populated by anything. Some Wildmen randomly show up in Against the Demon Queen. I've always asked, why? Can easily be replaced by Trogdolytes. Wildmen also show up in Inspired Quarter for no particular reason except to function as captives mining something. We already have trolls doing this in Red Fens so an easy swap. Plus wouldn't trolls be more effective at mining anyway? I've probably missed some but I'm sure they are equally easily exchanged out.

One can look to be offended by Wildmen or can be offended that Wildmen are being removed. Or one can just move on. So I voted I don't care. But I really would like to see that Dwarven war in Ataraxia. That would be cool.

By minimizing Wildmen to a meaningless mob that dies in less than a second and gets zero acknowledgment from players passing through only empowers the argument that they shouldn't be removed. Why waste the time and effort on something so meaningless? Now, in the cases you've suggested where they might be out of place, replacing them with a more appropriate mob makes sense.

[TedSandyman]

Excluding all mixed races seems more racist.

Mixed races exist.

Hiding from mixed races and other races and trying to act like they don't exist is about the most racist thing you can do.

We need to learn to live together not stick our heads in the sand.

The more I think about this the angrier I get. You can go to that village in Diplomatic Immunity and talk to the wildmen, gain their trust, and they accept you. At the same time, if you do this option, you very sincerely thank the wildman shaman and show respect.

I cant think of a better lesson than this. Dungeons and Dragons is full of those kinds of lessons. The Drow and the Shar are xenophobic peoples who only want to destroy anyone that isn't like them. They are truly evil BECAUSE they hate everyone that isn't them.

If you want to help racism include more items like the Wildman village. Give some decent xp for doing the right thing. Make it so you are rewarded in a way the make you WANT to save slaves and work with different groups. Create some quests where you reinforce and help cultures that are not your own. It already happens in a lot of places in D&D and in DDO.

One of the things I like best about D&D is that it tries to be inclusive. It has good and evil, like the real world. Games CAN help if designed correctly. Hiding uncomfortable parts ISN'T helping.

Anyone played Bioshock Infinite? The part with the baseball shocked me to my core. I knew from that point exactly which side I was on and who the monsters were.

[Cordovan]

Since this thread continues to veer off topic into politics and other related subjects it is now closed.