U59 Caster Reccomendations, <3

[Sam-u-r-eye]

@Devs

As someone who mains casters (and plays mostly r10 questing) let me recommend the following:

0) Lowering damage on Draconic mantle to bring it in line with the Primal mantle.
1) Lowering the damage on Ruin and Gruin
2) Lowering Eburst scaling as well as scaling on AOE spells.
3) The reduction of crit chance bonuses. (E.x., from Pomura's augment, the exceptional bonuses, etc)
4) The reduction of crit damage bonuses. (E.x., from Dino Bone)
5) Nerfing the crit chance on frozen wanderer filigree bonus. Ice is already the best element for sorcs and druids, no need to help it even more.

The floor for damage casters is already too high. By trimming the top you aren't going to change much. The whole archetype is overperforming; however, it is mostly overperforming on Sorc and Druid. Warlock, Wizard, Artificer, and Bard are all not overperforming in the damage department.

Sorc could use a 30% nerf, but not in a way that affects other casters.
Druid about 20%.
Alchemist damage is really not that impressive IMO. Blightcaster is also not overperforming so it getting hit with a nerf is not good.

There are actually two separate problems:
1) AOE trash clear on r1 is too good.
2) Single target damage at cap for your **average r10 pug** is too much.

[rabidfox]

3) The reduction of crit chance bonuses. (E.x., from Pomura's augment, the exceptional bonuses, etc)
4) The reduction of crit damage bonuses. (E.x., from Dino Bone)

Healers would eat those changes. That's the problem with balance stuff, it easily rolls into effecting other setups; just like SSG's current plan is going hammer non-meta casters classes/builds into the ground alongside those that the change is aimed at.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Healers would eat those changes. That's the problem with balance stuff, it easily rolls into effecting other setups; just like SSG's current plan is going hammer non-meta casters classes/builds into the ground alongside those that the change is aimed at.

If healers lose 30% of their healing then we can lower the healing penalty on reaper perhaps? It's about 30%. I never understood that.

[Monkey_Archer]

0) Lowering damage on Draconic mantle to bring it in line with the Primal mantle.
1) Lowering the damage on Ruin and Gruin
2) Lowering Eburst scaling as well as scaling on AOE spells.
3) The reduction of crit chance bonuses. (E.x., from Pomura's augment, the exceptional bonuses, etc)
4) The reduction of crit damage bonuses. (E.x., from Dino Bone)
5) Nerfing the crit chance on frozen wanderer filigree bonus. Ice is already the best element for sorcs and druids, no need to help it even more.

Quibbles:

0) Draconic mantle needs to maintain higher dps than primal, but I agree it is a bit too high atm.
1) Disagree on this one. Of all the "overpowered" spells these seem the most balanced. They require 2 feats, t5 destiny investment (ie. giving up a much better epic moment), they have a relatively long cooldown and high sp cost. Overall dps gained is on par with other spells when the cd is factored in.
2) Agree. All AOE spells should conform to the (d6+spell level * caster level) formula. ie, level 9(6) spells like meteor, acid well, multivial, etc... should be equivalent of d6+9, EBurst should be d6+10 (not doubled at t4).
3) Agree, nothing should be hitting 100% crit chance. (Imagine if melee got auto-crit back )
4) Disagree, given the above changes this would be too much all at once.
5) ...or add equivalents to other elements.

Sorc could use a 30% nerf, but not in a way that affects other casters.
Druid about 20%.
Alchemist damage is really not that impressive IMO. Blightcaster is also not overperforming so it getting hit with a nerf is not good.

Alchemist dps might not be sorc/druid level, but they have the easiest/highest dcs and best cc, and still very good AOE damage even if single target is lacking. If Sorc/Druid got nerfed down to alchemist levels, then alchemist would just be better.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Across the board nerfs to casters would crush a playstyle that is clearly popular with many players. The new proposed changes, impacting only R7+ will only affect high-end players, a much smaller segment of the game population, and a segment most capable of adapting to the changes.

The goal should not be to nerf AOE damage - it should be to give AOE damage to ALL classes. People play casters not because they have some deep seeded love of casters, they play them because AOE is fun. Expanding AOE abilities will make other classes more fun as well.

If you'd like a perfect example of how this works consider the Inquisitive. IPS was nerfed by 20%. Let's say you take it at level 15 and are using it in Gianthold for the first time. Well, GH mobs are old mobs and don't have many HPs so you don't even notice the 20% reduction and IPS is amazing functioning as AOE with ranged. It's like using a machine gun mowing down mobs. Great fun. Then you progress up and face modern mobs and find yourself in Legendary reapers and your 20% IPS nerf is so crippling that you don't use it at all. What was ultimately accomplished by nerfing IPS by 20%? The ability became mostly obsolete and a fun game choice was removed. Did Melee become better by nerfing IPS? No. You just had more people go and play casters - because again, AOE is fun and people are going to play classes that offer AOE.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Across the board nerfs to casters would crush a playstyle that is clearly popular with many players. The new proposed changes, impacting only R7+ will only affect high-end players, a much smaller segment of the game population, and a segment most capable of adapting to the changes.

The goal should not be to nerf AOE damage - it should be to give AOE damage to ALL classes. People play casters not because they have some deep seeded love of casters, they play them because AOE is fun. Expanding AOE abilities will make other classes more fun as well.

If you'd like a perfect example of how this works consider the Inquisitive. IPS was nerfed by 20%. Let's say you take it at level 15 and are using it in Gianthold for the first time. Well, GH mobs are old mobs and don't have many HPs so you don't even notice the 20% reduction and IPS is amazing functioning as AOE with ranged. It's like using a machine gun mowing down mobs. Great fun. Then you progress up and face modern mobs and find yourself in Legendary reapers and your 20% IPS nerf is so crippling that you don't use it at all. What was ultimately accomplished by nerfing IPS by 20%? The ability became mostly obsolete and a fun game choice was removed. Did Melee become better by nerfing IPS? No. You just had more people go and play casters - because again, AOE is fun and people are going to play classes that offer AOE.

I agree with this but many people play the best AOE *because* it is the best AOE. We are due for a shake-up. It's been the same meta since racials came out. That's 7 years. Buffing other AOE is a great idea. Sorc needs to come down a bit though. Fireball was amazing for leveling before it got another flat 2 per CL.

[Lotoc]

generally the issues with caster balance that I see is that cold as an element is oversupported to the point it's a detriment to every other element and "elements" are oversupported to the detriment of Sonic/Force/Light.
Draconic is too strong while being the only tree with an Epic Strike that does more damage than your regular spellbook spells, so in the epic strike department non-draconic elements have been completely edged out of viability.
Spell selection outside of draconic elements is also too small and often undertuned in comparison - force in fact is the worst offender where spells seem to be undertuned due to not having to deal with immunities while the top performing nukers don't have to deal with immunities on their elements anyway (and also get to benefit from MRR debuffs).
There is no reason for epic strike spells to be doing the damage of a single target third level spell with an MCL of 20 while dragon breath has 1d6+10 as a baseline and 2d6+10 upgraded while having no maximum caster level.

It is actually insanely dire that the second strongest epic strike for a nuker is Orchid Blossom (1d6+5 no MCL, huge AOE actually scales with force spellpower and crit.) that's how badly balanced epic strike spells are and I swear to god if Orchid Blossom gets nerfed before actually addressing draconic being far stronger and other epic strike spells being way too weak somebody has messed up priorities.

This disproportionate push on draconic while offering no real alternative for Sonic, Force/Phys, Light/Alignment means even casters who are meant to specialize into those elements feel forced to play into draconic in order to deal viable damage while those classes have no form of bypass because "Your primary spells aren't typical immunities"

[Soulfurnace]

generally the issues with caster balance that I see is that cold as an element is oversupported to the point it's a detriment to every other element and "elements" are oversupported to the detriment of Sonic/Force/Light.
Draconic is too strong while being the only tree with an Epic Strike that does more damage than your regular spellbook spells, so in the epic strike department non-draconic elements have been completely edged out of viability.
Spell selection outside of draconic elements is also too small and often undertuned in comparison - force in fact is the worst offender where spells seem to be undertuned due to not having to deal with immunities while the top performing nukers don't have to deal with immunities on their elements anyway (and also get to benefit from MRR debuffs).
There is no reason for epic strike spells to be doing the damage of a single target third level spell with an MCL of 20 while dragon breath has 1d6+10 as a baseline and 2d6+10 upgraded while having no maximum caster level.

It is actually insanely dire that the second strongest epic strike for a nuker is Orchid Blossom (1d6+5 no MCL, huge AOE actually scales with force spellpower and crit.) that's how badly balanced epic strike spells are and I swear to god if Orchid Blossom gets nerfed before actually addressing draconic being far stronger and other epic strike spells being way too weak somebody has messed up priorities.

This disproportionate push on draconic while offering no real alternative for Sonic, Force/Phys, Light/Alignment means even casters who are meant to specialize into those elements feel forced to play into draconic in order to deal viable damage while those classes have no form of bypass because "Your primary spells aren't typical immunities"

The push on draconic AND exalted angel. Because for some reason nukers need 2 sets of wings, and a healing option in case they didn't pick a caster with heals. And as a bonus they get thrown no-fail will and fortification, without even looking around.
And then sorc nukers get EK 15% hp because they were oppressed or something
And nukers tend to have similar prr/mrr to melees, because med armour and gearing just allows it.
Of course they also get CC that isn't touch range, and unlike dire charge isn't garbage. Dire charge rubberbanding, going past the targeted, stationary mob... it's just worthless as an ability.
It's like air jets: why do they exist. Stop adding them. Remove them all. They're awful and unfun because they don't do what they're supposed to half of the time, and the rest of the time it'll rubberband because high ping.

There's a whole host of issues with nukers and internal AND external balance. Chopping off the dps like this is probably the wrong way to go about it, but also.. eh, I'm not surprised.

[mikarddo]

If AoE damage is the main culprit - why are Ice Sorcs so popular? Unless I am overlooking something they have less AoE than Fire Sorcs.

[Lotoc]

If AoE damage is the main culprit - why are Ice Sorcs so popular? Unless I am overlooking something they have less AoE than Fire Sorcs.

Reflection of wave, pendant of the azure sea and the frozen wanderer filigree set bonuses.
Itemization for water elementals and cold in general is far and away superior to every other element.
A critical otilukes will typically outdamage a noncrit acid well so the difference in critical values pushes it ahead in terms of consistency.

[Marshal_Lannes]

This disproportionate push on draconic while offering no real alternative for Sonic, Force/Phys, Light/Alignment means even casters who are meant to specialize into those elements feel forced to play into draconic in order to deal viable damage while those classes have no form of bypass because "Your primary spells aren't typical immunities"

Sonic has some of the best support in Fatesinger. Arguably the best tier 4 core it turns your shouts into massive heals allowing you to function as both DPS and Healer. Also adds excellent damage to shouts and sonic blasts and Master of Music is one of the few master feats that really performs well.

You do touch on a key point though when Shiradi was nerfed, Draconic became the primary choice for most casters. Shiradi should never have been nerfed, at least not in an across-the-board 20%+ reduction. All 20% reductions are bad ideas and only lead to people fleeing from the choice and going to something else. Draconic was essentially forced upon us. I also agree that the EDs offer too little in attractive epic spells for casters. Primal has some things going for it but these are mostly at the low tiers and the Destiny falls behind Draconic as you go up the tree.

Cold and Fire are popular choices because of game design around items. These two elements are by far the most supported with items and filigree. If we had items in the game that had synergy with say, Shadowdancer casting, we'd see more casters in Shadowdancer. This is more a question of loot design and not class design.

Back to the upcoming update, I feel that if casters must be nerfed, the proposed changes are acceptable. They are only going to affect a small subset of gameplay (R7 and above) and they are moderate and reasonable compared to previous changes made to things like Shiradi or IPS.

[mikarddo]

Reflection of wave, pendant of the azure sea and the frozen wanderer filigree set bonuses.
Itemization for water elementals and cold in general is far and away superior to every other element.
A critical otilukes will typically outdamage a noncrit acid well so the difference in critical values pushes it ahead in terms of consistency.

Thank you for the reply.

I would still love to see the actual numbers done though. Using a 2h weapon means giving up Ash + one other (formerly LGS) proc which is a very significant loss unless you simply expect someone else to prove those debuffs.

[mikarddo]

Back to the upcoming update, I feel that if casters must be nerfed, the proposed changes are acceptable. They are only going to affect a small subset of gameplay (R7 and above) and they are moderate and reasonable compared to previous changes made to things like Shiradi or IPS.

IPS nerf was as 20% reduction. The R10 nerf in U59 is a 33% reduction. How do you see that as "moderate"?

The other reductions might be, but the R10 reduction is really huge.

[Lotoc]

Sonic has some of the best support in Fatesinger. Arguably the best tier 4 core it turns your shouts into massive heals allowing you to function as both DPS and Healer. Also adds excellent damage to shouts and sonic blasts and Master of Music is one of the few master feats that really performs well.

Fatesinger is a funny case honestly, the very vocal enhancement may be one of my favorites and is one I hope weaker casters like arti get a mirror of in future.
It brings horn of thunder up a little ahead of acid well on average dice damage per cl (4d6+12 averaging 26 vs 1d6+18 averaging 21.5) but bard doesn't get as many CLs and has to split scaling between sonic and electric, so it's just about on par with 9th level spells.
My biggest issue is with strikes and their scaling, bard gets one that's at least interesting and has its own builder/spender system but 1d6+1 per cl is incredibly low and its saving grace is being a 2 second cooldown and having no MCL while most every other strike has a MCL of 20.

By the way, shiradi absolutely did need nerfs, it wasn't a 30% proc but more like 7 different procs each rolling an independent 30% then having a shared .1 second internal cooldown. Much higher proc rate than it should have had but also getting another layer that people fixated on more with a true 30% chance in stay x.

[Lotoc]

Thank you for the reply.

I would still love to see the actual numbers done though. Using a 2h weapon means giving up Ash + one other (formerly LGS) proc which is a very significant loss unless you simply expect someone else to prove those debuffs.

Call lightning storm often gets used to snapshot.

[mikarddo]

Call lightning storm often gets used to snapshot.

Interesting. I wasnt aware that was possible. Thank you.

[JOTMON]

'Pitchfork and torches' hating on casters does not fix melee issues.

~snip~
There are actually two separate problems:
~snip~

Only problem I see is Dev's tend to overly nerf and neuter without achieving overall balance and sustaining unique class strengths.

Players generally have no interest in playing useless builds.

Dev's need to pay particular attention to ensuring they 'fix' what needs fixing not [expletive] over player builds that have taken heavy investment to optimize.

Every time Dev's nerf and neuter game mechanics that players have heavily invested in they push players to just say '[expletive] and leave the game.

Capitulating to nerf requests without properly investigating and using measured corrective actions just creates unnecessary player aggro.

Especially when they immediately fix thing broken in player favor then sideline fixes to some future patch that are detrimental to players for months/years.


Lag is a serious issue that has been increasing over time instead of being resolved, unfortunately this may be a problem ingrained in 16 year old code that has been bloated with years of layered jenga patches..

[Sam-u-r-eye]

If AoE damage is the main culprit - why are Ice Sorcs so popular? Unless I am overlooking something they have less AoE than Fire Sorcs.

Fire sorc is very popular for leveling. It is better for epics as well.

As I pointed out there are two separate problems. The first has to do with AOE, which is where I think a lot of the jealousy from other archetypes comes from. I'm not sure most of the ire directed at casters is even about their R10 damage. In fact, I think most people think casters should have reasonable damage.

+5 CL on your Eburst makes Ice a better nuker than fire---combined with the fact that Burst of Glacial wrath damage becomes reasonable.

~

Rotation:
Dino sticks equipped for MRR stripping/vuln -> Mass Hold -> Burst of Glacial Wrath -> Swap to Wave, Eburst, couple more nukes to clean up.

[Monkey_Archer]

'Pitchfork and torches' hating on casters does not fix melee issues.

Melee actually have very few issues right now if built right. Sure there are some defensive issues, (mostly with heavy armor dps types being unable to get meaningful ac or high enough prr to make up for the dodge loss) but the only real issue is that they are mostly pointless in a group of AOE casters.

Only problem I see is Dev's tend to overly nerf and neuter without achieving overall balance and sustaining unique class strengths.

Players generally have no interest in playing useless builds.

Dev's need to pay particular attention to ensuring they 'fix' what needs fixing not [expletive] over player builds that have taken heavy investment to optimize.

Every time Dev's nerf and neuter game mechanics that players have heavily invested in they push players to just say '[expletive] and leave the game.

Capitulating to nerf requests without properly investigating and using measured corrective actions just creates unnecessary player aggro.

I agree, but also support this nerf because it will increase the health of the endgame overall.

I would much rather prefer targeted nerfs to the specific overperforming spells and/or R11+ to give a better challenge, but I'll take what I can get for now.

Especially when they immediately fix thing broken in player favor then sideline fixes to some future patch that are detrimental to players for months/years.

Often true, but in this case AOE caster builds have been in this state for over a year as well

[Sam-u-r-eye]

The more I think about it, the problem is the CL of Eburst. They could limit it to 20 and fix the R10 issue immediately.

However, as Soulfurnace points out this is a broader issue.

The synergies between Draconic and EA for survivability and healing put caster in a really lovely spot.

We haven't even mentioned how casters can spend a few points for reborn in fire which is an excellent heal.