Lamannia Update 59 Preview 1 Feedback: Performance Adjustments

[Cordovan]

We have fundamentally changed how bonuses are calculated behind the scenes to be using a more performant algorithm to reduce lag in the game. This change impacts:

• Feat bonuses
• Enhancement bonuses
• Epic destiny bonuses
• Past life bonuses
• Toggled bonuses
• Temporarily granted Feats
• Armor Class bonuses
• Blocking Armor Class bonuses
• Attack bonuses
• Damage bonuses
• Savings throw bonuses

Please keep an eye out for discrepancies in bonuses on your character sheet between the regular Live game worlds and this Lamannia build. Adding and removing Feats, Enhancements, and acquisition of Past Lives are the primary mechanisms that might cause these bonuses to exhibit erroneous behaviors. There are more than 485 bonuses affected and not all of them are on the character sheet and easily displayable. So if character abilities are not acting as you would expect them to normally, please report your experience here!

[GoldyGopher]

We have fundamentally changed how bonuses are calculated behind the scenes to be using a more performant algorithm to reduce lag in the game. This change impacts:

• Feat bonuses
• Enhancement bonuses
• Epic destiny bonuses
• Past life bonuses
• Toggled bonuses
• Temporarily granted Feats
• Armor Class bonuses
• Blocking Armor Class bonuses
• Attack bonuses
• Damage bonuses
• Savings throw bonuses

Please keep an eye out for discrepancies in bonuses on your character sheet between the regular Live game worlds and this Lamannia build. Adding and removing Feats, Enhancements, and acquisition of Past Lives are the primary mechanisms that might cause these bonuses to exhibit erroneous behaviors. There are more than 485 bonuses affected and not all of them are on the character sheet and easily displayable. So if character abilities are not acting as you would expect them to normally, please report your experience here!

Would it be possible to understand how this fundamentally changed and if there are potential interactions (enter or leaving a quest, shrining, buffing, other) that have a greater potential to cause discrepancies.

[LeoLionxxx]

Would it be possible to understand how this fundamentally changed and if there are potential interactions (enter or leaving a quest, shrining, buffing, other) that have a greater potential to cause discrepancies.

Indeed, if we get a technical info dump, it may help with looking for issues and thinking of and testing edge cases.

[Ereshkigal]

We have fundamentally changed how bonuses are calculated behind the scenes to be using a more performant algorithm to reduce lag in the game. This change impacts:

• Feat bonuses
• Enhancement bonuses
• Epic destiny bonuses
• Past life bonuses
• Toggled bonuses
• Temporarily granted Feats
• Armor Class bonuses
• Blocking Armor Class bonuses
• Attack bonuses
• Damage bonuses
• Savings throw bonuses

Please keep an eye out for discrepancies in bonuses on your character sheet between the regular Live game worlds and this Lamannia build. Adding and removing Feats, Enhancements, and acquisition of Past Lives are the primary mechanisms that might cause these bonuses to exhibit erroneous behaviors. There are more than 485 bonuses affected and not all of them are on the character sheet and easily displayable. So if character abilities are not acting as you would expect them to normally, please report your experience here!

Lol.

It might be possible for you to have been more vague, but this is super vague. What have you done now? It's a fundamental change? Ok... Is there some reason you're not just telling us what you changed?

[slarden]

Would it be possible to understand how this fundamentally changed and if there are potential interactions (enter or leaving a quest, shrining, buffing, other) that have a greater potential to cause discrepancies.

The first easy test is to log on your live server, note the key stats unbuffed. Do the same going into a quest. Do the same fully buffed and maybe even with a dual box bard.

Then repeat on Lamannia.

On a complex capped character I would be impressed if it matches fully. The things listed by Cordovan can be looked at if you get exact matches, otherwise I probably wouldn't even consider a deeper dive if the starting numbers aren't right.

[Baahb3]

Dumb question I guess but are you expecting all numbers to be the same after these changes? i.e. This is just a change to the way they are calculated to get to the same total. Not a change in the actual values?

[mikarddo]

I logged in my maxed bard, in reaper with songs, on Orien and Lam.

Same stats all around except for spell points which was slightly off by 80 points. Not sure if that could be for some other reason, I didnt try to figure it out.

[Cordovan]

Dumb question I guess but are you expecting all numbers to be the same after these changes? i.e. This is just a change to the way they are calculated to get to the same total. Not a change in the actual values?

Correct.

[Aelonwy]

So? We should take snap shots of ALL our characters on live, import them to Lamannia... see if any numbers are off and try to figure out why? *sigh*

[Hawkwier]

Correct.

This presupposes all the values on live are correct.

(For example, I don't believe my HP are correctly calculated from the Heroic Durability and Combat style feats.)

It may be possible that the Lammania rework actually corrects an existing error on Live.

Hopefully, any difference will be examined objectively without presumption that Lammania values must be "wrong".

[Cordovan]

So? We should take snap shots of ALL our characters on live, import them to Lamannia... see if any numbers are off and try to figure out why? *sigh*

Mostly, just play on Lamannia and see what you recognize as different, whether it be numbers or something else.

[ahpook]

The first easy test is to log on your live server, note the key stats unbuffed. Do the same going into a quest. Do the same fully buffed and maybe even with a dual box bard.

Then repeat on Lamannia.

On a complex capped character I would be impressed if it matches fully. The things listed by Cordovan can be looked at if you get exact matches, otherwise I probably wouldn't even consider a deeper dive if the starting numbers aren't right.

If it were that easy. The challenge is taking all those numbers you can see to see if they are properly applied during your combat (dmg, tohit, strikethrough, prr, etc). You know, those numbers that we can only tell are off after playing our characters for extended periods of time due to the RNG.

[Nugaot]

This presupposes all the values on live are correct.

(For example, I don't believe my HP are correctly calculated from the Heroic Durability and Combat style feats.)

It may be possible that the Lammania rework actually corrects an existing error on Live.

Hopefully, any difference will be examined objectively without presumption that Lammania values must be "wrong".

This is my question too, there's probably more than a few edge cases where calculations aren't adding up correctly on live. Is this a "we fixed every stat calculation bug in the game" type fundamental change?

[Scrag]

This is my question too, there's probably more than a few edge cases where calculations aren't adding up correctly on live. Is this a "we fixed every stat calculation bug in the game" type fundamental change?

Fwiw, I have seen my max hp fluctuate by a constant 12 points. Zero effects, no gear swapping. Just zoning between areas, and suddenly I gain or lose 12 points. Just doing travel. I tried to figure out what was going on but ultimately said 12 hps isn't likely to slay me.

[Bjond]

Would it be possible to understand how this fundamentally changed and if there are potential interactions (enter or leaving a quest, shrining, buffing, other) that have a greater potential to cause discrepancies.

My guess is they're lifting invariant calculations as high as they could reasonably go. Worst case, they were fully recalculating every single bonus on every single attack. Best case for us is that they're changing it to precalculating as much as possible as soon as they can.

The difficulty with something like that is D&D itself with temporary buffs and effects combined with code age; ie. the more varied and different the scope of each calculation, the more work it takes to do this. This after-the-fact effort scales up a lot with older code and is a big reason why the phrase "we'll optimize it later" usually implies later = never.

Example: you can calc attribute bonus on each attack or you can precalculate a bonus and update that bonus only when things it's derived from change. It's MUCH more efficient to precalc, but to do that efficiently in code after it's already in place requires refactoring all code that makes attribute changes. All the little quick hacks and updates over the years that directly change attributes would need to be updated. You'd need to make SURE all attribute-changing code runs the "change an attribute" function, which would then also update any derived bonuses.

All that is just an example based on a guess, but it fits with typical code optimization efforts on older code.

Things to check: make sure when your character's stats & bonuses change, that it really changes. Do negative levels apply? When you remove them is your character FULLY restored or do you need to relog to fix it? My guess is they'll get gearing, feats, and trees mostly correct, because they can just run down each feat/tree slot/gear slot and test them -- there's effectively a test list for those.

Temporary and obscure bonuses would be easier to miss. Gear with unusual and/or unique effects. De/buffs applied and removed in combat. Gear-swapping in combat. Stuff like is likely not easily converted into a checklist to test. The more obscure, the more likely it's gonna slip by and either not work or require you to relog to fix. Try swapping LOTS of gear mid combat if you like to run swappy builds (my bet is gear-chaning will be slower to MUCH slower).

I sincerely hope they're doing rigorous testing on everything they can for this one because just saying "come play and let us know" is going to result in the discovery and use of bugs that benefit the players. And, this kind of patch has serious risks of accumulating either negative or positive bonuses over time. It's a good thing to do, but it badly needs VERY thorough testing.

[CodogCuisinart]

I logged in my maxed bard, in reaper with songs, on Orien and Lam.

Same stats all around except for spell points which was slightly off by 80 points. Not sure if that could be for some other reason, I didn't try to figure it out.

Please PM me with your character name and I'll take a look. This is the kind of discrepancy I'm looking for. Thank you!

[CodogCuisinart]

My guess is they're lifting invariant calculations as high as they could reasonably go. Worst case, they were fully recalculating every single bonus on every single attack. Best case for us is that they're changing it to precalculating as much as possible as soon as they can.

The difficulty with something like that is D&D itself with temporary buffs and effects combined with code age; ie. the more varied and different the scope of each calculation, the more work it takes to do this. This after-the-fact effort scales up a lot with older code and is a big reason why the phrase "we'll optimize it later" usually implies later = never.

Example: you can calc attribute bonus on each attack or you can precalculate a bonus and update that bonus only when things it's derived from change. It's MUCH more efficient to precalc, but to do that efficiently in code after it's already in place requires refactoring all code that makes attribute changes. All the little quick hacks and updates over the years that directly change attributes would need to be updated. You'd need to make SURE all attribute-changing code runs the "change an attribute" function, which would then also update any derived bonuses.

All that is just an example based on a guess, but it fits with typical code optimization efforts on older code.

Things to check: make sure when your character's stats & bonuses change, that it really changes. Do negative levels apply? When you remove them is your character FULLY restored or do you need to relog to fix it? My guess is they'll get gearing, feats, and trees mostly correct, because they can just run down each feat/tree slot/gear slot and test them -- there's effectively a test list for those.

Temporary and obscure bonuses would be easier to miss. Gear with unusual and/or unique effects. De/buffs applied and removed in combat. Gear-swapping in combat. Stuff like is likely not easily converted into a checklist to test. The more obscure, the more likely it's gonna slip by and either not work or require you to relog to fix. Try swapping LOTS of gear mid combat if you like to run swappy builds (my bet is gear-chaning will be slower to MUCH slower).

I sincerely hope they're doing rigorous testing on everything they can for this one because just saying "come play and let us know" is going to result in the discovery and use of bugs that benefit the players. And, this kind of patch has serious risks of accumulating either negative or positive bonuses over time. It's a good thing to do, but it badly needs VERY thorough testing.

I wrote the new algorithm and tested against the old in our development environment for quite a long time. We optimized how we pre-cache bonuses granted by feats. Giving too much information could tip off exploiters on where to look for vulnerabilities. When changing the underpinnings of a game that has been in development for close to 20 years, there are a lot of special corner cases in the code itself... and then there is a lot of content on top of it that sometimes will surprise you. I had many moments of "We used a feat for THAT? We gave you that feat HOW?" Being that a huge part of our game is our build meta, the sheer number of permutations and combinations of builds and interactions between bonuses makes it impossible to brute force test everything. So I appreciate all your observations and hope to find and fix any discrepancies that come up.

Best wishes!

[M.ham]

We have fundamentally changed how bonuses are calculated behind the scenes to be using a more performant algorithm to reduce lag in the game... Please keep an eye out for discrepancies in bonuses on your character sheet between the regular Live game worlds and this Lamannia build... So if character abilities are not acting as you would expect them to normally, please report your experience here!

Transferred a character to Lamannia, after Heroic TR I observed that I was missing the Universal AP point.

Cheers,
M.

[CodogCuisinart]

In other words, "We changed some stuff and we don't want to be be forthcoming with information. Hopefully you won't notice anything. But if you do, please be forthcoming with information and tell US."

Yeah, that sounds fair.

We changed some algorithms to be more optimized and need feedback if anything big broke in the process. This was a fundamental rewrite to a delicate system hoping to have the exact same result minus the lag. So we "changed stuff" hoping it didn't change stuff. :P We'd like to be able to address problems before the release as opposed to turning off the lag fix post-release if we find a show stopper. So please kindly report discrepancies if you see any.

Thanks for caring about our game!

[CodogCuisinart]

I'm Codog Cuisinart!

I started at Turbine in 2004 and worked on Dungeons and Dragons Online from incubation to the launch of DDO Unlimited when the game turned free to play. I recently (2 years ago) rejoined the Standing Stone Games crew to work on both DDO and Lord of the Rings Online functioning as lead engineer. It appears my title on the forums was not set up correctly since I don't tend to post on the forums. My apologies if this seemed like a clever phishing scam.