Lamannia Update 59 Preview 1 Feedback: Diplomatic Impunity

[Maxxcore]

GoldyGopher, possibly terms similar to "monkey" and "boy", is probably one of the main reasons those Wildmen are getting the axe. It mostly relates to Slavery in the United States and the US culture, e.g. parallels of people and monkeys. Plus they are also called Wildmen, not Wild persons. I think you'll be able to figure out the rest.

I think the DnD Wild Men are Wild Men and not Wild Persons because they are actually all men. At least according to what I read, they are 100% men lol.

[Aelonwy]

Don't mind them replacing Wildmen with something else. But I feel Bullywogs don't fit the jungle theme; they're kinda more swamp/lake people.

Lizardmen are more jungle oriented imho.

Searched "Bullywug habitat" and this is first entry I got:
Bullywugs preferred to inhabit dark, dank places isolated far from human beings, wet locations like rainforests, damp caves, swamps, meres, or virtually any other warm but shady region with abundant water.

I remember ponds in that quest. One right at the beginning, another by some cats, a third in an optional. I'm not sure about the climate difference from that jungle versus a rainforest or if it matters very much in a fantasy setting.

I think Bullywugs are fine for that quest, I think Lizardfolk would be fine too. I really don't care but I have never much liked the poor art assets of Wildmen which are too much like wights/ghouls/ghasts in movement and frame wearing bad costumes.

[Stradivarius]

For your reference as to what a "Wildman" looks like:

[mpetrarca]

SSG is problematic on several levels, and it is shown by the now very small player base. I just purchased IoD, took me 3 months of playing to farm the points, SSG will never get another penny from me.

[The_Human_Cypher]

ssg is problematic on several levels, and it is shown by the now very small player base. I just purchased iod, took me 3 months of playing to farm the points, ssg will never get another penny from me.

This.

[PurpleSerpent]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

Personally, I think this is an excellent idea. Wildmen have always had unfortunate undertones as monsters in Dungeons and Dragons, and unlike some similar humanoid monsters (I might mention the Hadozee here, although other monsters like the Lizardfolk have undergone similar adjustments recently), it's not something that a background change can fix. And as for putting them in the Monkey room of Against the Demon Queen...

A couple of points I would just like to make. First, it would be a shame to lose the Mongrelfolk in Ravenloft as a result of this, because they aren't really Wildmen at all - perhaps it would be worth moving them to their own unique race?

Secondly, of course, while Bullywugs fit fairly well in the environment of a jungle island, there are other locations, such as the deserts of Menechtarun or the underground tunnels of the Restless Isles, where they'd feel out of place, so I'd just like to caution against using them as catch-all replacements. A few other monsters spring to mind as better ideas - Lizardfolk or Goblins, perhaps?

(Two of the remaining packs without difficulty options, Devil Battlefield and Restless Isles, contain quests with Wildmen, so it's nice to think that these might be getting a rework soon. Especially in the case of the Restless Isles, which has desperately needed one for years now.)

[Lauf]

You are welcome to provide your feedback as long as it does not touch the wider political fight currently happening. This change is being made because we want to, not due to any appeasement effort.

I made a huge error on the LOTRO side by allowing such discussion related to a television show and I will not repeat that mistake here.

Ask and you shall receive.

When I started out in DDO, lord knows how many years ago, I had a tank, one of my first toons if not the first. I farmed that quest for hours for the reflective shield, it became my favorite quest in the game, and I'm always happy to rerun it.

I should mention I have read the thread, I am not from the US, am not involved in your politics etc.
I am mentioning this as you seem to assume comments are a consequence of what is happening there or part of that discussion, so I felt you should know that this is feedback from your random global player.

As a player, I've enjoyed the wildmen. They have (had?) a unique feel to them, they have character.
I feel you should strive to create more unique mobs such as these, and do what you can to preserve at least the feel that these had. There aren't many memorable unique humanoid mobs. Off the top of my head the only others that come to mind are the Shadar-kai.

I have to admit that I have tried and failed to understand the problem with them. From what I gathered the wildmen were from the European culture, hairy white humanoids, akin to Satyr and Ogre.
I am mentioning this in advance to explain and apologize why my proposed solutions may be way off. Not understanding the problem makes it hard to offer a solution.
With that said, perhaps change their name? perhaps a different skin would do? or are their mechanics the issue?

I would hope you to try and find a way to solve the problem instead of throwing them out, I feel they add to the game even in the other quests they are in. If there is a way of altering them to your satisfaction, please do.

And as for the frogs, I fail to see what they would do in a jungle filled with panthers. Maybe replace the wildmen with Satyrs instead?

[Aelonwy]

For your reference as to what a "Wildman" looks like:

Yep. That Brigandine? style armor does look appropriate in the unique setting of Restless Isles. It was the one place I said I liked them. They just fit there.

[DoctorOfLiterature]

I do not find the wild men problematic. I don’t really care if they are replaced either so long as the new monsters fit the setting. Mostly I would prefer for staff resources to be used more productively to improve the game especially for new players.

[Stoner81]

Sad to see the Wildmen go, I quite like them but oh well it is what it is I guess *shrugs*

Stoner81.

[SocratesBastardSon]

I like bullying Bullywugs as much as the next player, but it feels off putting them there. Why not just stick with the Droaam milieu and go with a race known to inhabit that region? Goblins come to mind. They're very common in P&P D&D, but underrepresented in DDO since they were a later addition. Now's the chance to, well, balance that out.

Now if you ever did a Restless Isles pass (and I hope you do), I say, "Bring on the Bullywugs!"

[Logicman69]

This is definitely a time when a little white lie would have gone a long way to avoid all this. A statement simply saying "While updating the quest, we uncovered some problems with the animations of the wild men. We had a choice to either spend time updating them all, or replacing them with a more updated character model. We chose the later as the best course of action".

I would think 99% of the players would simply say "ok, fair enough" and move on with that explanation. But when you say that the particular race of monsters are "problematic" without citing details, then it leaves too much open for interpretation. Add on that recent changes to the table top games, and its no wonder that the player base is assuming this decision was made because of other factors.

[rabidfox]

The bleed (and possibly other attacks) the bullywugs do will make the quest a bit more interesting.

[elvesunited]

So ALL wildmen will eventually be replaced?

Where else are they in the game besides Restless Isles and Ataraxia? Against the Demon Queen. The island in Inspired Quarter. Uhm Storm the Beaches... am I missing anything?

Storm the Beaches could be replaced by anything... Lizardfolk, Yuan-ti or Bullywugs... might need to replace the wolves with something that might live side-by-side with these monstrous-humanoids.
Ataraxia? Something that lives on a beach, in caves. Could put Sauhaugin here.
Restless Isles... I liked them here, fit with the ogres. Maybe goblins?
ADQ? Fit with Monkey Crest, idk how this will change to be appropriate. I think I would change the crest to something else entirely and while I was in there change the Trogs for the snake crest to Yuan-ti.
Mining For Ancient Secrets... any enslaved humanoids? drones and automatons mining? Constructs could be cool.

Storm the beaches -> goblins like wolves
Ataraxia -> Gnolls like Hyenas which are common in that area
Restless Isles -> Shifters given the wildmen are good guys more often than not in these quests (except for the turncoats) and no evil race really applies.
ADQ -> Tabaxi as it's kind of a leaping challenge. And change crest to cat
Mining for Ancient Secrets -> Kobolds! As they are a common slave race you don't feel bad about killing.

[Munnin2]

So assuming that modern day thinking is driving what is and is not problematic. Technically speaking the vast majority of quests in the game can be summarized as: Heroes invade native territory, and slaughter natives. I have never once heard someone say they were going to quit DDO because of the wildman or even the content in the quests. Lag issues (supposedly being resolved) Extreme Power Imbalance, Extremely new player unfriendly environment. Those are all reasons I have heard people quit. Perhaps SSG has had people in there cancellation question mention them. But its highly unlikely someone whose been in game for many years would have done that, or even someone who had a serious interest in the game.

In reference to the comment earlier liking wildman to slavery: The entire Menace of the underdark pack is riddled with slavery (albeit you have to rescue...OR Slaughter them) and I think there are better ways to handle the wildman situation in that quest anyways. Put the chief at the start, have the players negotiate with him before entering their territory. Perhaps make them non combative...a bit of background scenery if you will.

[magaiti]

Wildmen first appeared in the game in the Restless Isles pack. There are extensive dialog lines describing wildmen origins as descendants of Quori experiments.
This explains their appearance in Dreaming Dark as well.
They should either stay there, or be replaced with a close substitute (mongrelfolk, or other deformed, yet sentient creatures). Otherwise the whole Restless Isles and Dreaming Dark story would have to be rewritten.

As for other quests, do whatever, but keep in mind that not only the monsters but map objects should be revised. Quori have distinct architecture associated with them (Medieval Japan like), and wildmen may have similar surroundings. These would not make sense for other races.

[Pandjed]

As a long-time tabletop D&D-player (who is tbh a bit scared of reading any article of D&D/WotC/Hasbro lately), I know that several backgrounds and such are probably to certainly tied to real-world history and stereotypes, and many of them are not very pleasant. Like how the mind flayers invaded and enslaved the whole multiverse, creating countless of (sub-)races due to their experimentations, like the duergar or the gith, all in an effort to create the perfect servant race.
When I started DDO, I was a bit bewildered by the wildmen, as I thought I had extensive D&D-lore, but then I found out that they were a DDO-creation and my thought back then was "lazy". Mostly because of the lackluster design and that I thought why we had these critters, but not the shifters (who are still very underrepresented in the game in quests imo), but then we got some lore...

Any politics aside, the wildmen will leave a big hole in the narrative tapestry and that's important for immersion and worldbuilding. I don't think bullywugs can solve it, because their role in most D&D-worlds is very different, they're meant to be... well, bullies. Attacking those who are weaker then them, keeping them in the role of the victims, etc. It's just a bad human trait projected into a fictional race to make stories about it.
Will lizardfolk do it? No, while they are more in-line of a wise natural culture, they do have a natural habitat in Khorvaire on Eberron, so while having them in this quest will certainly make it look more in line (as it just doesn't look damp enough and too rocky for frogs to live well there imo), it will not help in the long run.

My suggestion would play the long game. First, leave the wildmen here until the other work can be done, maybe only change some dialogue in the quest. In the long run, they would be replaced by a race, which could be detrimentally called wildmen, but would fit into D&D (even the new One D&D want to take them into the core), they are strong enough to be good slaves for the quori, they would have innate roots on Xen'drik because of their link to the giant, and they would even make a great choice for a player race: Goliath.
Of course it would take time to make the art assets, but as Goliath are living in harsher environments outside what we call civilization, they could replace the wildmen of DDO basically seemlessly, and from the perspective of many less-inclusive giants and most humanoids, they would appear as a grotesk hybrid of the two.

If you want to replace wildmen, take goliath!

[Bjond]

Intimidate dialogue in this quest seems to revolve around appearance-based insults

Intimidate itself is grossly misnamed when considering it's effect. A real-life successful intimidation doesn't result in a mindless rage-attack. It results in submission, cowering, or fleeing. 'Course D&D doesn't have a "Taunt" Skill or any other skill that directly fits the behavior we get in game.

Sad to see the Wildmen go, I quite like them but oh well it is what it is I guess *shrugs*

The only place I think would literally break the story is for the ones in Sunrise to be removed. It's only a minor plot piece in that one quest, not truly part of the overall Barovia story, but removing those would mean rewriting and revoicing the entire quest. Diplomatic Immunity wildmen are minor "color". Bullywugs, Lizardmen, Kobolds, or all kinds of other critters could easily be swapped there.

From a play standpoint, the reason I made a ranged character to begin with was because of all the hopping and jumping. I still like melee the most, but it seriously detracts from the fun of playing one; ie. my melee thought it was cool and fun for about 5 quests, after which it became a constant irritant.

[Phoenicis]

8<snip>8
The only place I think would literally break the story is for the ones in Sunrise to be removed. It's only a minor plot piece in that one quest, not truly part of the overall Barovia story, but removing those would mean rewriting and revoicing the entire quest. Diplomatic Immunity wildmen are minor "color". Bullywugs, Lizardmen, Kobolds, or all kinds of other critters could easily be swapped there.
8<snip>8

There are no wildmen in 'Sunrise'.

They are Mongrelmen, creations of the Abbot because they wanted to be 'stronger' in a classic corrupt-a-wish.

[Ghop15]

Create a new race to replace the Wildmen as former Quori servants, since that was their story purpose in DDO. Keep the Ghast/Ghoul animations but put a new texture over them. Maybe call them the Dream Men and make them more Quori themed. I think that would be cool. Also put them in the Monster Manual.