Lamannia Update 59 Preview 1 Feedback: Diplomatic Impunity

[cru121]

Disclaimer: I have not yet had a chance to try the quest.

If the quest still has the "gather your party before venturing forth" mechanic, please remove that.
In my opinion, while running back and forth is somewhat annoying, "gather" is much worse.

[droid327]

Every quest should have a DD when you enter that takes you to the end so you can complete instantly without bothering with the story of the quest or do anything in it.

You can tell a story while letting your players keep moving forward. I agree that long backtracking doesn't add anything to the quest experience...it's just a naked time sink.

The only thing you lose ddooring it is the chance to parlay with the wildmen...but simply swap which gate is open and locked so you can access it from the other side instead

[DYWYPI]

If the "Against the Demon Queen" monkey themed area gets converted into the Bullywug area; it'd possibly result in a crest described, which is similar to an ethnic slur. The Wildmen models look more like apes than monkeys.

Some of the Wildmen appearances: Against the Demon Queen (quest), Ataraxia's Haven, Bring Me the Head of Ghola-Fan!, Diplomatic Impunity, Genesis Point, Mining for Ancient Secrets, Sins of Attrition, Slavers of the Shrieking Mines, Storm the Beaches, The Restless Isles and The Twilight Forge.

[mikarddo]

DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels

I assume you are talking about political correctness here.

So, it is all good when we killed 100s or 1000s of humans in many quests - but depicting Wildmen is an issue? Such odd priorities.

I wish I could call this silliness an american issue but sadly similar things have starting to appear in the part of Europe where I reside. It seems to even be getting to the point of falsifying history in order to desperately avoid stepping on any toes - real or imagined.

It likely cannot be helped as thats the tone of the time we live in - but I still reserve the right to call it silly.

[Wahnsinnig]

You can tell a story while letting your players keep moving forward. I agree that long backtracking doesn't add anything to the quest experience...it's just a naked time sink.

The only thing you lose ddooring it is the chance to parlay with the wildmen...but simply swap which gate is open and locked so you can access it from the other side instead

Time sink is true, but I do not have a problem with how it is done in Diplomatic Impunity.

I would rather complain about quests like Acid Wit and Combatting Corruption. That way to design a quest is just plain awful.

Diplomatic Impunity is fine as is. But the objective to gather next to Ulevian could easily be removed. Not needed at all for the story.

[Madja]

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/516216

I brought the vistani up in the past.

That I can understand as the Vistani are very obviously based on the Romani, but I can't even really grasp what wildmen are supposed to "represent"? Like, they're literally just ape people - with a culture and design that doesn't really resemble anything in real life. Is it because they're offending our ancestors like **** Habilis or something?

Even something like dwarfs, gnomes or halflings should be move offensive.

IMO "Purge the Heretics" should be closed and/or retooled. I, for one, refuse to run it on principle.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Purge_the_Heretics

It's really interesting how the Silver Flame is represented in the low level quests like this and "Bringing the Light". They just murder anyone who doesn't follow their tenets - something that is very much against the core teachings of The Church of the Silver Flame. I'm guessing it's based on the whole inquisition period of the Catholic Church.

[magaiti]

Yathink replacing apes with frogs would not be problematic, considering all the hassle around Pepe the frog?

[JoeCamb02140]

IMO "Purge the Heretics" should be closed and/or retooled. I, for one, refuse to run it on principle.
https://ddowiki.com/page/Purge_the_Heretics

I kind of like Purge the Heretics since it serves as part of the back story for Inquisitor Gnomon whom we will later learn in the Lords of Dust is really a Rakshasa. It makes total sense that he would send the adventurers on a quest that undermines the Church of the Silver Flame while pretending that they are doing the church a sevice.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Inquisitor_Gnomon

[axel15810]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

I appreciate you all for commenting as to your reasons but I find this really silly. It's a fictional made up race. I find it very odd they'd be viewed by anyone as representative, mocking or offensive to any real life group of people (which is what I assume you are implying here). And after all, there are many NPCs and monsters in DDO that could be seen as problematic if someone chooses to look at them through a certain lens. Players in prior posts in this thread have already brought up some. I can think of several others. Wildmen are a classic DDO monster and part of the feel and nostalgia of this pack and other packs where they are included. Removing them will take away from that. They've been in DDO for 15+ years. Leave them, it's fine.

[axiom21]

The quest feels really weird without the Wildmen - and to remove them from the Restless Isles too and the half-dozen or so other quests they're in over...what reasons exactly? I see the "problematic" word is used, red flag.

To put it plainly, if you are in a mindset that when you look at pixels on the screen of a fictional monster in a fictional universe in a video game that you're not forced to play because you think it has some racial or cultural undertones: you're a sick and twister person and should seek help.

Or, maybe, go help real humans?

[HoopleHeadMan]

Every quest should have a DD when you enter that takes you to the end so you can complete instantly without bothering with the story of the quest or do anything in it.

Not enough... I should be able to log in on any character and be instantly granted completion for all quests and relevant XP FOR those quests without having to run them... this also includes any applicable loot from said quests added to my personal inventory. It's bad enough that I have to teleport to Town Market and then walk 150' to the trainer....cut us some slack!

Oh, and I find the use of Demons and Devils offensive and need that to be changed too... perhaps change them to little Oscar the Grouches, each with their own garbage can and bad attitude?

[salmag]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

WOW.

This is such a waste of time for you devs.

To replace the Wildmen for no other reason than being "problematic" is stupid. This is a FANTASY setting.

First, they are only "problematic" to short-minded individuals. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. PCs slaughter basically everything in this game; good, bad, short, tall, light, dark, green, red, grey, etc.

Second, if you're basing the "problem" off of current racial feelings, remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Also, wildmen resemble NO particular race or class of people currently existing. Australopithecus has long been deceased. Who is being offended?

Thirdly, there are other, far more offensive beings in this game that we suppress. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Drow, Halflings, Church-goers, Vistani, Dwarfs, are ALL far more offensive than Wildmen to certain groups.

As for them not being tied to PnP; this game has long since departed from PnP (as many will tell you).

I just think your resources would be much better addressing OTHER concerns. But you're going to do whatever you're going to do.

Thank you for morally saving me, I think.

[Bjond]

just murder anyone who doesn't follow

D&D is a game where players are rewarded for killing things based entirely on race. Ogre = kill. Orc = kill. Bullywug = kill. Etc etc etc. The degree of pure prejudice with the expected response of "kill it!" in most video games is astounding.

It only flies, though, when people don't associate any targets directly with a subset of current-day humans. IMHO, I view the popularity and acceptability of this kind of entertainment as a somewhat sad commentary on the inherent xenophobia of the human race itself.

Enough posting for now. Time to kill more ORCS!

[GoldyGopher]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

I guess I am being pretty dense here. Who exactly are the Wildmen depicting as a racial stereotype (You can PM if you want)? I am stumped? **** erectus?

[rmi]

Good riddens to wildmen. Always hated the ungrateful bastards.

"Look there is someone to rescue us! Quickly kill him!"

[Firebreed]

I hope the Wildmen stay in the Restless Isles at least.

[DYWYPI]

GoldyGopher, possibly terms similar to "monkey" and "boy", is probably one of the main reasons those Wildmen are getting the axe. It mostly relates to Slavery in the United States and the US culture, e.g. parallels of people and monkeys. Plus they are also called Wildmen, not Wild persons. I think you'll be able to figure out the rest.

[Martininice]

WOW.

This is such a waste of time for you devs.

To replace the Wildmen for no other reason than being "problematic" is stupid. This is a FANTASY setting.

First, they are only "problematic" to short-minded individuals. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. PCs slaughter basically everything in this game; good, bad, short, tall, light, dark, green, red, grey, etc.

Second, if you're basing the "problem" off of current racial feelings, remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Also, wildmen resemble NO particular race or class of people currently existing. Australopithecus has long been deceased. Who is being offended?

Thirdly, there are other, far more offensive beings in this game that we suppress. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Drow, Halflings, Church-goers, Vistani, Dwarfs, are ALL far more offensive than Wildmen to certain groups.

As for them not being tied to PnP; this game has long since departed from PnP (as many will tell you).

I just think your resources would be much better addressing OTHER concerns. But you're going to do whatever you're going to do.

Thank you for morally saving me, I think.

I mean, I can see the idea behind it, but ironically, I think people who are "offended" by that are the ones attributing traits of these critters to certain groups of people, while everyone else just thinks "hey, look, monkey people!". And if you choose the twitterati sphere as your moral compass, you should not be surprised your game will have become Pong at some point (though I guess somehow even that can be construed as "ableist" or something like that, you never know with these folks).

[Moribund_the_Greater]

WOW.

This is such a waste of time for you devs.

I just think your resources would be much better addressing OTHER concerns. But you're going to do whatever you're going to do.

I couldn't agree more.

[Cordovan]

We cannot have a discussion on these forums about the wider cultural attacks, harassment, oppression and fighting taking place in the US and elsewhere, and it will not be permitted as it relates to our decision to change monsters in our game, either. Any further discussion about "woke culture", which is a clear political debate, will not and never be permitted on these forums. This is your final warning.