Lamannia Update 59 Preview 1 Feedback: Diplomatic Impunity

[Cordovan]

Please provide your feedback after running Diplomatic Impunity on Lamannia during this preview here! Find the release notes on the Lamannia forums.

[Wdh]

I want my wildmen back. Bullywugs are funny but the wildmen are apart of classic DDO.

[Bolo_Grubb]

why replace the wild men? Just curious

[LeoLionxxx]

Indeed, why replace the wildmen?

Is it about cultural sensitivity for killing people native to an area? Concerns about players not wanting to kill things that look human? Wanting the green-skinned bullywugs to blend in with the landscape?

The wildmen feel like an iconic part of this question. I'd hate to see them go!

[Steelstar]

why replace the wild men? Just curious

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

[MathisMagic]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

That makes a lot of sense. The wildmen have always made me somewhat uncomfortable. It's not a bad idea to slowly work them out as long as your already updating stuff with them in it.

[Aelonwy]

Unpopular opinion but I like the bullywug change. The only place I've liked having wildmen is Restless Isles where we save them from the ogres and Illithid slave-masters. Also the graphics for wildmen are just lame. I'm not sure but they've always looked like wights reskinned in monkey-suits to me, cheap ones from Spirit Halloween.

So ALL wildmen will eventually be replaced?

Where else are they in the game besides Restless Isles and Ataraxia? Against the Demon Queen. The island in Inspired Quarter. Uhm Storm the Beaches... am I missing anything?

Storm the Beaches could be replaced by anything... Lizardfolk, Yuan-ti or Bullywugs... might need to replace the wolves with something that might live side-by-side with these monstrous-humanoids.
Ataraxia? Something that lives on a beach, in caves. Could put Sauhaugin here.
Restless Isles... I liked them here, fit with the ogres. Maybe goblins?
ADQ? Fit with Monkey Crest, idk how this will change to be appropriate. I think I would change the crest to something else entirely and while I was in there change the Trogs for the snake crest to Yuan-ti.
Mining For Ancient Secrets... any enslaved humanoids? drones and automatons mining? Constructs could be cool.

[MathisMagic]

So ALL wildmen will eventually be replaced?

Where else are they in the game besides Restless Isles and Ataraxia? Against the Demon Queen. The island in Inspired Quarter. Uhm Storm the Beaches... am I missing anything?

Storm the Beaches could be replaced by anything... Lizardfolk, Yuan-ti or Bullywugs... might need to replace the wolves with something that might live side-by-side with these monstrous-humanoids.
Ataraxia? Something that lives on a beach, in caves. Could put Sauhaugin here.
Restless Isles... I liked them here, fit with the ogres. Maybe goblins?
ADQ? Fit with Monkey Crest, idk how this will change to be appropriate. I think I would change the crest to something else entirely and while I was in there change the Trogs for the snake crest to Yuan-ti.
Mining For Ancient Secrets... any enslaved humanoids? drones and automatons mining? Constructs could be cool.

I like these ideas!

I think there are a lot of enslaved wildmen in various quests, like in the dreaming dark for instance. They're in boxes in genesis point too. Replace them with hobgoblins or something, they don't really have a story point there I don't think.

The mongrelfolk in Ravenloft are technically also wildmen, but I'd argue that that's the location where they're the least offensive, given the whole point of them in the story... so they may be skipped. But I'd love to see them come up with something new for that bit.

[elvesunited]

So ALL wildmen will eventually be replaced?

Where else are they in the game besides Restless Isles and Ataraxia? Against the Demon Queen. The island in Inspired Quarter. Uhm Storm the Beaches... am I missing anything?

Storm the Beaches could be replaced by anything... Lizardfolk, Yuan-ti or Bullywugs... might need to replace the wolves with something that might live side-by-side with these monstrous-humanoids.
Ataraxia? Something that lives on a beach, in caves. Could put Sauhaugin here.
Restless Isles... I liked them here, fit with the ogres. Maybe goblins?
ADQ? Fit with Monkey Crest, idk how this will change to be appropriate. I think I would change the crest to something else entirely and while I was in there change the Trogs for the snake crest to Yuan-ti.
Mining For Ancient Secrets... any enslaved humanoids? drones and automatons mining? Constructs could be cool.

Storm the beaches -> goblins like wolves
Ataraxia -> Gnolls like Hyenas which are common in that area
Restless Isles -> Shifters given the wildmen are good guys more often than not in these quests (except for the turncoats) and no evil race really applies.
ADQ -> Tabaxi as it's kind of a leaping challenge. And change crest to cat
Mining for Ancient Secrets -> Kobolds! As they are a common slave race you don't feel bad about killing.

[Mindos]

DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic

What else in DDO is problematic? If you had unlimited time and money, what else would you change?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man

[LeoLionxxx]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

That's a good and solid answer, thanks.

Huh, I had in my head that Wild Men were in the DDO Monster manual, but I guess they aren't.

What else in DDO is problematic? If you had unlimited time and money, what else would you change?

IMO "Purge the Heretics" should be closed and/or retooled. I, for one, refuse to run it on principle.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Purge_the_Heretics

[Duhboy]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

Pretty sure wild men are in 5E.

[Dreppo]

DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels

Can you elaborate on the problems?

[Bolo_Grubb]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

Thank you

[Wdh]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

I think you should have picked any race to replace them except bullywugs. Maybe actually some shifters, since I don't think there are NPC shifters really in DDO.

[mikarddo]

DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels

I assume you are talking about political correctness here.

So, it is all good when we killed 100s or 1000s of humans in many quests - but depicting Wildmen is an issue? Such odd priorities.

I wish I could call this silliness an american issue but sadly similar things have starting to appear in the part of Europe where I reside. It seems to even be getting to the point of falsifying history in order to desperately avoid stepping on any toes - real or imagined.

It likely cannot be helped as thats the tone of the time we live in - but I still reserve the right to call it silly.

[axel15810]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

I appreciate you all for commenting as to your reasons but I find this really silly. It's a fictional made up race. I find it very odd they'd be viewed by anyone as representative, mocking or offensive to any real life group of people (which is what I assume you are implying here). And after all, there are many NPCs and monsters in DDO that could be seen as problematic if someone chooses to look at them through a certain lens. Players in prior posts in this thread have already brought up some. I can think of several others. Wildmen are a classic DDO monster and part of the feel and nostalgia of this pack and other packs where they are included. Removing them will take away from that. They've been in DDO for 15+ years. Leave them, it's fine.

[salmag]

As we were updating Diplomatic Impunity for u59 and needed to update all of the monsters anyway, we decided to move forward with replacing the Wildmen in this dungeon. We have not yet replaced Wildmen in other parts of the game, but we intend to do so in the future. DDO's Wildmen enemies are problematic on several levels, and while this could and probably should have been taken care of years ago, we're replacing them now that we have an opportunity to re-focus on this content.

Wildmen and the depiction of them in DDO are not tied to a specific pen-and-paper D&D monster to begin with, giving even less reason for them to remain. As for why Bullywugs as the replacement, we determined that they were a fitting replacement in this dungeon that would cause minimal need to rework the story and other elements that would be difficult to change as part of this Update's revamp.

WOW.

This is such a waste of time for you devs.

To replace the Wildmen for no other reason than being "problematic" is stupid. This is a FANTASY setting.

First, they are only "problematic" to short-minded individuals. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. PCs slaughter basically everything in this game; good, bad, short, tall, light, dark, green, red, grey, etc.

Second, if you're basing the "problem" off of current racial feelings, remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Also, wildmen resemble NO particular race or class of people currently existing. Australopithecus has long been deceased. Who is being offended?

Thirdly, there are other, far more offensive beings in this game that we suppress. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Drow, Halflings, Church-goers, Vistani, Dwarfs, are ALL far more offensive than Wildmen to certain groups.

As for them not being tied to PnP; this game has long since departed from PnP (as many will tell you).

I just think your resources would be much better addressing OTHER concerns. But you're going to do whatever you're going to do.

Thank you for morally saving me, I think.

[Martininice]

WOW.

This is such a waste of time for you devs.

To replace the Wildmen for no other reason than being "problematic" is stupid. This is a FANTASY setting.

First, they are only "problematic" to short-minded individuals. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. PCs slaughter basically everything in this game; good, bad, short, tall, light, dark, green, red, grey, etc.

Second, if you're basing the "problem" off of current racial feelings, remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Also, wildmen resemble NO particular race or class of people currently existing. Australopithecus has long been deceased. Who is being offended?

Thirdly, there are other, far more offensive beings in this game that we suppress. Remember, this is a FANTASY setting. Drow, Halflings, Church-goers, Vistani, Dwarfs, are ALL far more offensive than Wildmen to certain groups.

As for them not being tied to PnP; this game has long since departed from PnP (as many will tell you).

I just think your resources would be much better addressing OTHER concerns. But you're going to do whatever you're going to do.

Thank you for morally saving me, I think.

I mean, I can see the idea behind it, but ironically, I think people who are "offended" by that are the ones attributing traits of these critters to certain groups of people, while everyone else just thinks "hey, look, monkey people!". And if you choose the twitterati sphere as your moral compass, you should not be surprised your game will have become Pong at some point (though I guess somehow even that can be construed as "ableist" or something like that, you never know with these folks).