Lamannia Update 59 Preview 1 Feedback: Diplomatic Impunity

[GimpyPaw]

We cannot have a discussion on these forums about the wider cultural attacks, harassment, oppression and fighting taking place in the US and elsewhere, and it will not be permitted as it relates to our decision to change monsters in our game, either. Any further discussion about "woke culture", which is a clear political debate, will not and never be permitted on these forums. This is your final warning.

So you're saying we aren't allowed to even discuss or question why you're making a change? The lag has been horrific lately, there are glitches rampant in the game, transfers still are broken, and you're wasting time with replacing wildmen? And you do this what, to appease people who don't even play the game?

[Cordovan]

You are welcome to provide your feedback as long as it does not touch the wider political fight currently happening. This change is being made because we want to, not due to any appeasement effort.

I made a huge error on the LOTRO side by allowing such discussion related to a television show and I will not repeat that mistake here.

[Rehmlah]

As I was playing through, I noticed a few lines of quest dialogue that have not yet been changed. I expect there will be another pass before release, but in case this list helps:

• Ullevian says "Perhaps the wildmen will let you through without trouble."
• Dialogue with the Vinethrasher Warrior guard outside the gate has an intimidate option calling him a monkey-man.
• Dialogue with Zharig also has a similar intimidate option.
• Zharig's /say dialogue after successfully choosing diplomatic dialogue begins with "Wildmen of the Vinethrasher Clan!"

A lot of the Intimidate dialogue in this quest seems to revolve around appearance-based insults. Would it be possible to change some of these up while rewriting the dialogue? I'm not really sure what would feel better, though.

[The_Human_Cypher]

I want my wildmen back. Bullywugs are funny but the wildmen are apart of classic DDO.

I agree. The wildmen aren't "problematic," IMHO. They're just wildmen.

[GimpyPaw]

This change is being made because we want to, not due to any appeasement effort.

Because you want to? Seriously? Are wildmen causing some performance issues with the game? In what way is the game going to be any more playable or enjoyable by swapping out frogs for apes? Why is this a priority over a host of actual glitches and lag? How did wildmen beat out server transfers on the priority list?

[Seph1roth5]

Are some of the changes made in the legendary quests also made in the heroic one? Would love less gathers and flagging in general.

[Cordovan]

*snip* Why is this a priority over a host of actual glitches and lag? *snip*

It isn't, as evidenced by everything else being previewed on Lamannia this week.

[The_Human_Cypher]

Here's my suggestion to the devs if you must remove wildmen from the game: use mongrelmen in their place instead. Mongrelmen are a much better choice than whatever you might be planning on using instead. Bullywogs are very specific to the swamp and don't fit well into a jungle enviroment.

[Munnin2]

We cannot have a discussion on these forums about the wider cultural attacks, harassment, oppression and fighting taking place in the US and elsewhere, and it will not be permitted as it relates to our decision to change monsters in our game, either. Any further discussion about "woke culture", which is a clear political debate, will not and never be permitted on these forums. This is your final warning.

Not weighing in on the cultural debate in anyway, BUT I do want to point out that the Dev's started this by stating that anything in this game is "Problematic". IF they are problematic from a coding stand point....that would make sense. But without further clarification of what is problematic about it, Steelstar opened the door for speculation. Speculation led to its natural conclusion, and that conclusion might offend people. "Shrug" Can't do anything these days without offending someone.

[droid327]

You are welcome to provide your feedback as long as it does not touch the wider political fight currently happening. This change is being made because we want to, not due to any appeasement effort.

I made a huge error on the LOTRO side by allowing such discussion related to a television show and I will not repeat that mistake here.

Not trying to shoot the messenger, I know you're just doing your job as CM...buttttt...

To quote a wise man: "Dont start nothing, wont be nothing". If the SSG leadership didnt want to invite debate about this issue, then they shouldn't have unilaterally decided to open the issue by making this change. I dont think I've ever once, in my many years of activity in the community, seen anyone actually complain substantively about the representation of Wildmen. This is a solution in search of a problem. So it seems a bit disingenuous to say we cant opine about the politics of the change, when the change itself is entirely driven by those very politics.

[Firebreed]

As I was playing through, I noticed a few lines of quest dialogue that have not yet been changed. I expect there will be another pass before release, but in case this list helps:

• Ullevian says "Perhaps the wildmen will let you through without trouble."
• Dialogue with the Vinethrasher Warrior guard outside the gate has an intimidate option calling him a monkey-man.
• Dialogue with Zharig also has a similar intimidate option.
• Zharig's /say dialogue after successfully choosing diplomatic dialogue begins with "Wildmen of the Vinethrasher Clan!"

A lot of the Intimidate dialogue in this quest seems to revolve around appearance-based insults. Would it be possible to change some of these up while rewriting the dialogue? I'm not really sure what would feel better, though.

These do have to be changed if the Wildmen are indeed going away.

[magaiti]

A lot of the Intimidate dialogue in this quest seems to revolve around appearance-based insults. Would it be possible to change some of these up while rewriting the dialogue? I'm not really sure what would feel better, though.

Get croaked, green face.
I'll glue your fins together, bumpy.

[magaiti]

Bullywogs are very specific to the swamp and don't fit well into a jungle enviroment.

Wildmen village does have a swamp-looking pool somewhere, afair. So do Restless Isles, underground. No swamps in Ataraxia though, at least near the wildmen area.

[DYWYPI]

I've never noticed any performance issues whatsoever regarding interactions with Wildmen. However, I've certainly seen glitches caused by certain other mob models in some other quests where the Wildmen are not present. I thought those fellows were quite interesting, I will miss them being in: Diplomatic Impunity, and elsewhere. I certainly didn't associate them with anything other than some type of fantasy apelike creature.

[Diracorvus]

You can tell a story while letting your players keep moving forward. I agree that long backtracking doesn't add anything to the quest experience...it's just a naked time sink.

The only thing you lose ddooring it is the chance to parlay with the wildmen...but simply swap which gate is open and locked so you can access it from the other side instead

Finding the way and walking the distance can't be part of the story? Everything has to bow to the mighty xp/min?

[The_Human_Cypher]

So, tonight, I played through the Heroic 'Diplomatic Impunity' quest on a live server and then played the Legendary version on the test server to compare the two.

The DM's voiceover narration has been selectively edited in the Legendary version to remove references to the wildmen and is very terse in some parts as a result. The quest is somewhat poorer due to this change.

As noted above, there are still at least several references to wildmen or "monkey-men" in dialogue text and quest options. The text for the entire quest should be reviewed before this goes live (which I hope it doesn't).

My thoughts: if SSG is being pressured to eliminate wildmen from the game by WOTC or Daybreak, then I suppose they have to do it. If this is an internal decision by SSG, I would ask them to reconsider. The community doesn't want this, and bullywugs are a weak replacement that seems out-of-place in this quest. The wildmen should stay in here (and elsewhere) if at all possible.

[Oxarhamar]

I've never noticed any performance issues whatsoever regarding interactions with Wildmen. However, I've certainly seen glitches caused by certain other mob models in some other quests where the Wildmen are not present. I thought those fellows were quite interesting, I will miss them being in: Diplomatic Impunity, and elsewhere. I certainly didn't associate them with anything other than some type of fantasy apelike creature.

I remember the combat with the wildmen at the camp being particularly laggy however I have not been through there in ages every group I have run with skips that

[Stradivarius]

Don't mind them replacing Wildmen with something else. But I feel Bullywogs don't fit the jungle theme; they're kinda more swamp/lake people.

Lizardmen are more jungle oriented imho.

[Madja]

Here's my suggestion to the devs if you must remove wildmen from the game: use mongrelmen in their place instead. Mongrelmen are a much better choice than whatever you might be planning on using instead. Bullywogs are very specific to the swamp and don't fit well into a jungle enviroment.

Mongrelmen already exist in the game and their models are just pretty much just wildmen with hoods on, so I don't think they'd want to use those

[Stradivarius]

Could replace them with Warforged, like the one's that went off on their own and created their own primitive WF tribe?