Lamannia Update 59 Preview 1 - CLOSED

[rabidfox]

And yet melees aren't even part of a trinity or even represent one aspect of it while casters represent ALL of it. I propose this new set up.

That's not true; not sure what you're talking about. Melees are killing machines and/or can be uber tanky.

[Stradivarius]

That's not true; not sure what you're talking about. Melees are killing machines and/or can be uber tanky.

So can casters... but better. Do you see the problem here?

There currently is no role for melees unless raiding and many many people aren't back in high school and have time for raids.

[Zeklijan]

So can casters... but better. Do you see the problem here?

There currently is no role for melees unless raiding and many many people aren't back in high school and have time for raids.

The opinion you present here doesn't represent the current endgame. It's possible you don't play often with good melee players, because melee is very good in r10s.

[Tilomere]

Maybe reduce damage for hard and elite for casters also, just so the melees will stop whining.

Why don't we just cut spell power itemization in half, balancing all difficulties at all levels?

[Stradivarius]

The opinion you present here doesn't represent the current endgame. It's possible you don't play often with good melee players, because melee is very good in r10s.

Complete fabrication. You're getting a nerf. But don't worry your caster will still dominate endgame just not as hard.

I still say they need to be nerfed in elite on up; they level at least 1.75x faster than any melee or other playstyle.

[jackatthekilns]

I know this is not the feedback thread, but I tested the Dark Hunter wolf and it shows the "!" when it spots a trap, but does not show the "?" when it detects a secret door.

here is a clip: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1787060421

[Stradivarius]

Two Suggestions:


Spell Fizzle : Any spell cast by a spell-caster has a flat 1% chance per skull to mis-fire and fizzle out. Half mana cost.

Classic D&D "get hit and lose spell" : If you get hit or take damage in anyway, you will not be able to cast spells for the next 5 seconds.

[magaiti]

Two Suggestions:


Spell Fizzle : Any spell cast by a spell-caster has a flat 1% chance per skull to mis-fire and fizzle out. Half mana cost.

Classic D&D "get hit and lose spell" : If you get hit or take damage in anyway, you will not be able to cast spells for the next 5 seconds.

That's what concentration roll is for.
How about melees can't swing a weapon for 5 seconds after being hit, makes as much sense.

[Stradivarius]

That's what concentration roll is for.
How about melees can't swing a weapon for 5 seconds after being hit, makes as much sense.

Not in D&D it doesn't.

Getting hit always messed with spell casting as you are literally whipping out a textbook and attempting arcane complex hand gestures thoughts and using material components. Way different than smashing a face with a hammer.

[magaiti]

Not in D&D it doesn't.

Getting hit always messed with spell casting as you are literally whipping out a textbook and attempting arcane complex hand gestures thoughts and using material components. Way different than smashing a face with a hammer.

Yes in D&D it does
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Concentration_Skill

[Stradivarius]

Yes in D&D it does
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Concentration_Skill

Actually read what you posted.

You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, manifesting a power, concentrating on an active spell or power, directing a spell or power, using a spell-like or psi-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity

It's never a basic attack, always spells & skills (like picking a lock/disarming a trap) needed a concentration check due to their more intricate and involved nature. Smashing someone in the face with a warhammer does not count.

[magaiti]

Passing a concentration check lets you cast the spell after being hit.
This is how it works in D&D, this is how it works in DDO, and that's what my argument was about.

[Skyael]

Complete fabrication. You're getting a nerf. But don't worry your caster will still dominate endgame just not as hard.

I still say they need to be nerfed in elite on up; they level at least 1.75x faster than any melee or other playstyle.

Why are you going around accusing people of making stuff up? Have you tried playing a maxed out melee character? Because if you believe melees are weak that's a you problem, not a game problem..

[Stradivarius]

Why are you going around accusing people of making stuff up? Have you tried playing a maxed out melee character? Because if you believe melees are weak that's a you problem, not a game problem..

I almost always play a melee, I only have a druid mainly because I wanted to see how the other side plays. Let me tell you, when I got on that druid (now a blightcaster) it was a night and day difference. Things just melted inexplicably without even me having to push buttons; jaw dropping.

Casters always needed a nerf, I just think they aren't going far enough with the current nerfs.

[Zeklijan]

For context, this is coming from someone who has been playing spellcasters since 2009. I've seen the ups and downs over the years and I'm here to suggest that shrines should not restore spell points in r7+. Hear me out.

One of the biggest issues with casters is they basically have infinite spellpoints in quests. For the longest time, spellcasters had to be mindful of when to cast their big spells, and how they use their spell pool. This is why spells like Firewall were so popular back in the day, they were amazing at killing multiple targets for few spellpoints. They used those because they couldn't afford to fireball every 10 seconds. The main drawback was that it dealt it's damage over time, not instantly. So you had more space for melee/ranged to run in and kill half the mobs that were slowly cooking.

Now, they can nuke with their biggest spells across the entire quest without any worry of running out of spell points. If you make spell bars more meaningful, and casters pick the right time for their biggest spells, you suddenly have more space for melee/ranged to shine.

Take it from the original DnD. Your sorcerer had 6 of his biggest spells per day, so each one had to be cast when it mattered. But when they did? It was meant to be super strong. This is how casters were a long time ago, and this is how casters should be now in my opinion. People argued that spellcasters were too strong in 3.5e, so what did WotC do for 5e? They reduced how many spells they can use per day. Bring back spell point management, and I believe this blanket nerf won't be necessary at all.

How can we do that? Shrines don't restore spell points in r7+. I understand this also affects healers, I don't think that's a problem. (Self healing in r10s is another topic to discuss, but not today.) Now spellcasters have to "save" their spell points for meaningful encounters, and will need to blend in lower damage SLAs in their rotations to ensure they aren't drinking mana pots all the time. And I believe the great thing about it is it only affects high reapers, and not the rest of the game.

[Azoyhn]

So can casters... but better. Do you see the problem here?

There currently is no role for melees unless raiding and many many people aren't back in high school and have time for raids.

Two Suggestions:


Spell Fizzle : Any spell cast by a spell-caster has a flat 1% chance per skull to mis-fire and fizzle out. Half mana cost.

Classic D&D "get hit and lose spell" : If you get hit or take damage in anyway, you will not be able to cast spells for the next 5 seconds.

Complete fabrication. You're getting a nerf. But don't worry your caster will still dominate endgame just not as hard.

I still say they need to be nerfed in elite on up; they level at least 1.75x faster than any melee or other playstyle.

Not in D&D it doesn't.

Getting hit always messed with spell casting as you are literally whipping out a textbook and attempting arcane complex hand gestures thoughts and using material components. Way different than smashing a face with a hammer.

Actually read what you posted.

You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, manifesting a power, concentrating on an active spell or power, directing a spell or power, using a spell-like or psi-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity

It's never a basic attack, always spells & skills (like picking a lock/disarming a trap) needed a concentration check due to their more intricate and involved nature. Smashing someone in the face with a warhammer does not count.

I almost always play a melee, I only have a druid mainly because I wanted to see how the other side plays. Let me tell you, when I got on that druid (now a blightcaster) it was a night and day difference. Things just melted inexplicably without even me having to push buttons; jaw dropping.

Casters always needed a nerf, I just think they aren't going far enough with the current nerfs.

And yet melees aren't even part of a trinity or even represent one aspect of it while casters represent ALL of it. I propose this new set up.

Damage reduction for spells in Reaper


[Current] ->[New]

R1: 77% -> 70%

R2: 66% -> 60%

R3: 55% -> 50%

R4: 45% -> 37%

R5: 37% -> 30%

R6: 30% -> 26%

R7: 25% -> 21%

R8: 20% -> 16%

R9: 18% -> 12%

R10:15% -> 8%

Strad. I've read enough of your posts. It's time to log off and not make a return to the forums, especially after the Orien thread hoohonky. This isn't it.

[Stradivarius]

For context, this is coming from someone who has been playing spellcasters since 2009. I've seen the ups and downs over the years and I'm here to suggest that shrines should not restore spell points in r7+. Hear me out.

One of the biggest issues with casters is they basically have infinite spellpoints in quests. For the longest time, spellcasters had to be mindful of when to cast their big spells, and how they use their spell pool. This is why spells like Firewall were so popular back in the day, they were amazing at killing multiple targets for few spellpoints. They used those because they couldn't afford to fireball every 10 seconds. The main drawback was that it dealt it's damage over time, not instantly. So you had more space for melee/ranged to run in and kill half the mobs that were slowly cooking.

Now, they can nuke with their biggest spells across the entire quest without any worry of running out of spell points. If you make spell bars more meaningful, and casters pick the right time for their biggest spells, you suddenly have more space for melee/ranged to shine.

Take it from the original DnD. Your sorcerer had 6 of his biggest spells per day, so each one had to be cast when it mattered. But when they did? It was meant to be super strong. This is how casters were a long time ago, and this is how casters should be now in my opinion. People argued that spellcasters were too strong in 3.5e, so what did WotC do for 5e? They reduced how many spells they can use per day. Bring back spell point management, and I believe this blanket nerf won't be necessary at all.

How can we do that? Shrines don't restore spell points in r7+. I understand this also affects healers, I don't think that's a problem. (Self healing in r10s is another topic to discuss, but not today.) Now spellcasters have to "save" their spell points for meaningful encounters, and will need to blend in lower damage SLAs in their rotations to ensure they aren't drinking mana pots all the time. And I believe the great thing about it is it only affects high reapers, and not the rest of the game.

This. 100% this.

Although, honestly with souls recharging me I sometimes don't even need to use shrines and can still keep my death star fully operational.

[Zeklijan]

This. 100% this.

Although, honestly with souls recharging me I sometimes don't even need to use shrines and can still keep my death star fully operational.

Souls not spawning in r7+ also seems reasonable.

Not sure how big of a nerf removing both at once would be though. Perhaps knock out one or the other first then re-evaluate.

[Monkey_Archer]

I think there is some confusion regarding the dominance of casters at endgame. There are essentially 3 concepts that should be separated and judged separately, ill define them as:

1) Endgame: This is r10 questing for the majority of players.
2) End of endgame: For the (probably only a few dozen) players on the few servers with enough interest to attempt r10 raid pushes
3) Power creep: Players have become so powerful in general that endgame has become so easy that even bad builds can easily complete endgame content

Using these definitions, casters absolutely dominate endgame, but they definitely do not dominate "end of endgame." Melee can easily do well in r10, and good melee builds can basically solo r10 quests, but this is due to power creep, not balance. Place an r10 solo capable melee character in a group with 3 well played nukers and they contribute almost nothing because the casters will have everything dead in seconds before you can get in range. Conversely, end of endgame shows that when the game is properly balanced for the power that players have (ie. hp pools that cant just be nuked in 2 seconds) then casters stop dominating.

It really is as simple as monster hp values... which is why the caster nerf seems to me a ham-fisted, but effective, and hopefully temporary solution to what at its core is a power creep problem (or lack of monster power creep problem.)

[LurkingVeteran]

I think there is some confusion regarding the dominance of casters at endgame. There are essentially 3 concepts that should be separated and judged separately, ill define them as:

1) Endgame: This is r10 questing for the majority of players.
2) End of endgame: For the (probably only a few dozen) players on the few servers with enough interest to attempt r10 raid pushes
3) Power creep: Players have become so powerful in general that endgame has become so easy that even bad builds can easily complete endgame content

Using these definitions, casters absolutely dominate endgame, but they definitely do not dominate "end of endgame." Melee can easily do well in r10, and good melee builds can basically solo r10 quests, but this is due to power creep, not balance. Place an r10 solo capable melee character in a group with 3 well played nukers and they contribute almost nothing because the casters will have everything dead in seconds before you can get in range. Conversely, end of endgame shows that when the game is properly balanced for the power that players have (ie. hp pools that cant just be nuked in 2 seconds) then casters stop dominating.

It really is as simple as monster hp values... which is why the caster nerf seems to me a ham-fisted, but effective, and hopefully temporary solution to what at its core is a power creep problem (or lack of monster power creep problem.)

Additionally, there are too many sources of burst by epics. When you see people saying things like "optimizing for eldritch blast damage on a warlock is not so important because of epic burst abilities", there is a problem. The new SL9s were a huge source of burst by themselves, between those, Dragonbreath, ruins and the other SLAs, it's not that hard to burst down large groups of mobs. As an alternative to the reaper scaling change, I suspect that if just the big bursty epic SLAs (and maybe SL9s) were toned down by 30%, the weaker sustain of casters would matter more. It would also help balance in lower reaper, and maintain inter-caster balance better.