Cleric vs. Paladin True Resurrection and Resurrection... seriously?

[Fireball241]

Paladin gets True Rez and Rez before Cleric... Seriously?



I like multiclassing with these 2 classes.

My first Character was Paladin. Because I always played them PnP. In DDO years back I always wanted Holy Sword to be a spell to buff any weapon. I am glad for my Paladin.
For me I just like playing Melee Clerics in DDO. Maybe because back then they were more needed and easier to play for an old man. I think about dusting off my first DDO character a Human Pally parked at level 16. I always wanted Pally to be given a little more, but wow!

Giving Holy Sword a fourth level spell to the Cleric with the new War domain was nice. It is a Feat, and a Cleric needs level 14 to get it.


True Resurrection is a Cleric level 9 spell!?
Resurrection is Cleric 7th level spell
Resurrection SLA is a Tier 5 Epic Destiny in Unyielding Sentinel to give some perspective here.


True Resurrection as a PAL12 Heroic enhancement when a Cleric has to wait till CHR level 17, then you have to admit that this is some serious power creep and insulting to Cleric builds. I think Paladin should not get True Resurrection I am sorry to say. Bump up Raise Dead to higher levels along with Resurrection for Paladin somehow. I kind of wonder if they should get Resurrection, but since Paladin has already been given it I think that would be bad to just take it away. I like them having it to back me up as a Cleric.

I see Paladins have to wait till level 14 to get the lvl4 Holy Sword spell. I actually think that is too late for it and should be sooner. Like PAL10 for Ravenloft would be great timing or even sooner, but that might gimp other melee builds.

You all made me get out my old AD&D books from 1978. They are essentially what I consider the fantasy bible for all this. There is no level requirement for Holy Sword PnP. It looks like +2 to +5 in the hand of a Paladin. Maybe give the spell earlier and then raise the power based on Character level? From what I read in the old book and testament, but the print is so small that I did not feel like getting my readers out.

I just got back after a few years away. Getting out my popcorn. I have probably been into this stuff before most of you were born so please be nice. lol

[thegreatcthulhu]

I like multiclassing with these 2 classes.

My first Character was Paladin. Because I always played them PnP. In DDO years back I always wanted Holy Sword to be a spell to buff any weapon. I am glad for my Paladin.
For me I just like playing Melee Clerics in DDO. Maybe because back then they were more needed and easier to play for an old man. I think about dusting off my first DDO character a Human Pally parked at level 16. I always wanted Pally to be given a little more, but wow!

Giving Holy Sword a fourth level spell to the Cleric with the new War domain was nice. It is a Feat, and a Cleric needs level 14 to get it.


True Resurrection is a Cleric level 9 spell!?
Resurrection is Cleric 7th level spell
Resurrection SLA is a Tier 5 Epic Destiny in Unyielding Sentinel to give some perspective here.


True Resurrection as a PAL12 Heroic enhancement when a Cleric has to wait till CHR level 17, then you have to admit that this is some serious power creep and insulting to Cleric builds. I think Paladin should not get True Resurrection I am sorry to say. Bump up Raise Dead to higher levels along with Resurrection for Paladin somehow. I kind of wonder if they should get Resurrection, but since Paladin has already been given it I think that would be bad to just take it away. I like them having it to back me up as a Cleric.

I see Paladins have to wait till level 14 to get the lvl4 Holy Sword spell. I actually think that is too late for it and should be sooner. Like PAL10 for Ravenloft would be great timing or even sooner, but that might gimp other melee builds.

You all made me get out my old AD&D books from 1978. They are essentially what I consider the fantasy bible for all this. There is no level requirement for Holy Sword PnP. It looks like +2 to +5 in the hand of a Paladin. Maybe give the spell earlier and then raise the power based on Character level? From what I read in the old book and testament, but the print is so small that I did not feel like getting my readers out.

I just got back after a few years away. Getting out my popcorn. I have probably been into this stuff before most of you were born so please be nice. lol

Yeah, I agree the Paladin spell progression in this game is kind of... frustrating. I really wish they'd loosen things up a bit in that 10-20 window with how Paladins get spells. I also do not like how some of the spells fall behind in end game. For example, it's so easy to get +stats and +immunities from gear, which makes the choices too easy for some of the Paladin spells. I'd love to see some more thought put in there so Paladins have to pay more attention to what spells they're preparing.

It's a bit funny; your experience has been similar to mine, I think. I leveled a Pallly up to 10 back in 2012-13, quit and later came back after Dread.

I do love what they have done so far with the divine classes, but I think we're probably on the same page - there's definitely room for improvement. A more specific example there - Vanguard and Warpriest need some love on the absurdly long CDs.

[Bacab]

The issue with moving Holy Sword to like level 10, is that Paladin doesn't get level 3 spells until level 11. So maybe they could move it to a level 3 spell. But I think they are just gating power.

As far as the Raise Dead and Ressurection stuff goes, most players will have scrolls of at least Raise Dead that they can UMD.

When I play Cleric or Favored Soul I still pick True Ressurection when doing challenging combat. I have absolutely been kiting monsters while doing Quickened True Rez trying to prevent a total party wipe.

Welcome back though! I just recently did a few Paladin lives (2 regular lives and 2 Sacred Fist). Paladin is awesome...I really like where it is now.

[Fireball241]

The issue with moving Holy Sword to like level 10, is that Paladin doesn't get level 3 spells until level 11. So maybe they could move it to a level 3 spell. But I think they are just gating power.

As far as the Raise Dead and Ressurection stuff goes, most players will have scrolls of at least Raise Dead that they can UMD.

When I play Cleric or Favored Soul I still pick True Resurection when doing challenging combat. I have absolutely been kiting monsters while doing Quickened True Rez trying to prevent a total party wipe.

Welcome back though! I just recently did a few Paladin lives (2 regular lives and 2 Sacred Fist). Paladin is awesome...I really like where it is now.

Dispel Magic was a level 3 spell in PnP and Holy Sword was a constant Area of Effect of it. I think they should get it earlier than spell level 3 and maybe Tier it to Character level. Many spells are anyway. Maybe get the critical range earlier at level 9 when you can put a nice Seeker item in your inventory like Bloodstone.

Scrolls are a totally different utility than a spell with Quicken in combat. Although I think Reaper still gives spell failures? I have seen that and was in shock at first lol

[Fireball241]

Yeah, I agree the Paladin spell progression in this game is kind of... frustrating. I really wish they'd loosen things up a bit in that 10-20 window with how Paladins get spells. I also do not like how some of the spells fall behind in end game. For example, it's so easy to get +stats and +immunities from gear, which makes the choices too easy for some of the Paladin spells. I'd love to see some more thought put in there so Paladins have to pay more attention to what spells they're preparing.

It's a bit funny; your experience has been similar to mine, I think. I leveled a Pallly up to 10 back in 2012-13, quit and later came back after Dread.

I do love what they have done so far with the divine classes, but I think we're probably on the same page - there's definitely room for improvement. A more specific example there - Vanguard and Warpriest need some love on the absurdly long CDs.

In the old testament and from what I remember being huge about Holy Sword was the Protection from Evil and Dispel Magic area effect for the party. It made the party cheer for the Holy Sword to show up. Dispel Magic was a level 3 spell in the book. I think they should get it earlier than spell level 3 and maybe Tier it to Character level. Many spells are anyway. I like the power of it. Maybe get the critical range earlier at level 9 when you can put a nice Seeker item in your inventory like Bloodstone. CHR9 Min lvl is +5.

Another balance would be to make the spell point cost higher for Paladins for True Rez, Rez, and Raise Dead.
As an example:

Cleric Divine Energy Resistance is 75 spell points as a Tier 5 RS Enhancement at a cost of 1 enhancement point. As an Epic Exalted Angel enhancement it is 15 spell points and cost 2 Destiny points for any class.

The last thing I want is for the old way back after a complaint. I like the changes. Just the lack of balance I think is obvious. Paladin is quite strong and can handle it. It is why most of my old Cleric builds had PAL3 and I am about to run CLR14/PAL5/FTR1. Probably to Legendary because it seems like a great way to get there for a old man gimp player like myself.

[Fireball241]

Here is the opposite of Holy Sword. It is ML9. lol
My Paladin can't use poison arrows, but he can use this Chaotic Evil theme sword before he gets his Holy Sword.

Any of you younglings read the Elric series?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elric_of_Melnibon%C3%A9



The Elric knockoff.
The original writer of White Plum Mountain admits it. lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Plume_Mountain



https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Echo_of_Blackrazor

[Fireball241]

In the theme of the PnP Paladin they should get "Radiance" earlier than Cleric RS Tier5. Now this would be a good Paladin Enhancement Core at level 6. It goes with the Holy Sword ability for AOE to Dispel Magic and Protect from Evil. It goes with the Paladin being in the thick of combat and needing it more and the Cleric at around Character level 8 that is more casting themed getting it later.

Radiance: All allies in the dungeon (regardless of distance) gain I the effects of the Greater Restoration spell, and are 1 purged of Paralysis, Stun, and Knockdown/Trip. You may use this while Crowd Controlled.(Cooldown: 6 seconds) (Metamagic: Empower Heal)
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 No requirements

[Bacab]

In the theme of the PnP Paladin they should get "Radiance" earlier than Cleric RS Tier5. Now this would be a good Paladin Enhancement Core at level 6. It goes with the Holy Sword ability for AOE to Dispel Magic and Protect from Evil. It goes with the Paladin being in the thick of combat and needing it more and the Cleric at around Character level 8 that is more casting themed getting it later.

Radiance: All allies in the dungeon (regardless of distance) gain I the effects of the Greater Restoration spell, and are 1 purged of Paralysis, Stun, and Knockdown/Trip. You may use this while Crowd Controlled.(Cooldown: 6 seconds) (Metamagic: Empower Heal)
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 No requirements

The Protection from Evil AoE is Magic Circle against Evil unless I am misunderstanding ya.

[Fireball241]

The Protection from Evil AoE is Magic Circle against Evil unless I am misunderstanding ya.

There are a lot of better ideas. Aura of Good/Courage can increase with level. So it travels with the Paladin. The devs can be a little more creative than dumping all 3 Divine Rez spells into the Paladin Spell Book at level 12. There are a lot of themes here that can mimick the traditional Paladin better.

Raise Dead before Holy Sword just does not seem like a balance.

[Martininice]

They are essentially what I consider the fantasy bible for all this.

And this is your mistake. ADD is as relevant for this game, which is its own thing, as CoC, WoD and Earthdawn books.

[Fireball241]

And this is your mistake. ADD is as relevant for this game, which is its own thing, as CoC, WoD and Earthdawn books.

The original books are not needed to see the obvious. The mistakes by the Devs are obvious with the use of common sense balancing of the game as outline in the OP.

Why the Devs make such drastic changes IMO?

Some of the mentioned tweaks in this thread to Pally would have been quite beneficial to Paladins keeping in the melee theme. Like giving a melee Radiance early.

[Zuldar]

Could make it more even by adding Righteous Command and Zeal to the Warpriest/Warsoul enhancement trees. Even fits thematically and those trees need all the help they can get to actually be useful.

[thegreatcthulhu]

In the old testament and from what I remember being huge about Holy Sword was the Protection from Evil and Dispel Magic area effect for the party. It made the party cheer for the Holy Sword to show up. Dispel Magic was a level 3 spell in the book. I think they should get it earlier than spell level 3 and maybe Tier it to Character level. Many spells are anyway. I like the power of it. Maybe get the critical range earlier at level 9 when you can put a nice Seeker item in your inventory like Bloodstone. CHR9 Min lvl is +5.

Another balance would be to make the spell point cost higher for Paladins for True Rez, Rez, and Raise Dead.
As an example:

Cleric Divine Energy Resistance is 75 spell points as a Tier 5 RS Enhancement at a cost of 1 enhancement point. As an Epic Exalted Angel enhancement it is 15 spell points and cost 2 Destiny points for any class.

The last thing I want is for the old way back after a complaint. I like the changes. Just the lack of balance I think is obvious. Paladin is quite strong and can handle it. It is why most of my old Cleric builds had PAL3 and I am about to run CLR14/PAL5/FTR1. Probably to Legendary because it seems like a great way to get there for a old man gimp player like myself.

I definitely agree; Holy Sword is lacking in something. The spell and the concept as a whole have changed quite a bit throughout DDO's history too, so I could see them changing it some more... hopefully for the better! And again, I agree - the current Paladin as I said, is very much so appreciated.

[Fireball241]

Could make it more even by adding Righteous Command and Zeal to the Warpriest/Warsoul enhancement trees. Even fits thematically and those trees need all the help they can get to actually be useful.

You kind of get where I am going with this. They have similar things Paladin and Cleric, but the melee based gets the melee based stuff sooner and the Caster based gets melee stuff later.

I think my suggestions make the Paladin stronger earlier and more melee themed. Having Radiance earlier would be a huge reason to invite a Paladin. Technically a Cleric can get it at 32/4 at level 8. Putting Radiance as a Lvl6 Core or a lvl6 auto granted click feat would go with the themes of Holy Sword Dispel Magic... In this case Anti-Knockdown party buff. Knockdown is a big part of the game and I don't want to gimp one of the most powerful enemy NPC skills in the game. Making Radiance a clickie forcing the Pally to concentrate on it themed from PnP. Maybe limit the AOE of Radiance.

Why a Melee based F2P class is getting high level Caster spells normally attained at Cleric level 17 instead at Paladin level 12 makes no sense!? I know there are tank based Pallies out there that make R10 doable. I get it, but this is way overdone.

If we look at Multii Clr14/Pal6 vs. Pal14/Clr6 and then go into Epic healing enhancements a Paladin could Reaper heal with all the same SLAs and Auras as a Cleric and then they have all the Resurrection spells. Wow.

It is really a total disregard for balance. A Paladin should not have True Rez. And they get it before my Cleric?


As a Cleric it is an insult! Lol

[Xitix555]

A paladin doesn't have any 4th level spell slots until level 14 when they get ONE such slot for which True Resurrection needs to compete with the other spells like Cure Serious Wounds, Zeal and Holy Sword. They get a second slot at 15, a third at 19 and a forth at 20. Better off scrolling Resurrection if multiclassing and using the limited spell slot(s) for something else. The Resurrection scroll is even usable at level 11 for paladins with no UMD check.

[Nugaot]

Holy Sword was a 4th-level Paladin spell in 3.5, which DDO was originally based on. I still have my old manual kicking around from back then; even in those days they had to take more than a few liberties adapting the game from pen and paper into an MMORPG. As far as AD&D is relevant, it's only been as a source of inspiration for some adventure packs, like Keep on the Borderlands and White Plume Mountain. Trying to apply AD&D (or any other p&p system's) logic to DDO's character customization will only result in frustration. I think it's best to see the game as being its own edition of D&D. In DDO, Holy Sword used to require a non enchanted cold iron weapon to use, but that was changed many years ago to its current form granting +1 crit range, crit multi and enhancement bonus (it also used to grant +1W, but it was nerfed shortly after).

I actually do agree with you though I don't think Paladin needs to be nerfed, Cleric just needs to be better. There's a lot of interesting potential for the class and they were debatably the strongest in 3.5 (I hear 5e Clerics are pretty beastly too). In DDO they're pretty not-great. Warpriest sucks, most of the domains suck besides a few meta choices (you can only pick one!), and all anyone asks for is HEALS PL0X. FvS and Druids are both better casters and healers, Paladin is a better fighter. I love Clerics and I've played more than a few - Dark Apostate is especially cool - but I'm not going to pretend that it wouldn't be straight up easier and better to play almost any other class.

[Fireball241]

Holy Sword was a 4th-level Paladin spell in 3.5, which DDO was originally based on. I still have my old manual kicking around from back then; even in those days they had to take more than a few liberties adapting the game from pen and paper into an MMORPG. As far as AD&D is relevant, it's only been as a source of inspiration for some adventure packs, like Keep on the Borderlands and White Plume Mountain. Trying to apply AD&D (or any other p&p system's) logic to DDO's character customization will only result in frustration. I think it's best to see the game as being its own edition of D&D. In DDO, Holy Sword used to require a non enchanted cold iron weapon to use, but that was changed many years ago to its current form granting +1 crit range, crit multi and enhancement bonus (it also used to grant +1W, but it was nerfed shortly after).

I actually do agree with you though I don't think Paladin needs to be nerfed, Cleric just needs to be better. There's a lot of interesting potential for the class and they were debatably the strongest in 3.5 (I hear 5e Clerics are pretty beastly too). In DDO they're pretty not-great. Warpriest sucks, most of the domains suck besides a few meta choices (you can only pick one!), and all anyone asks for is HEALS PL0X. FvS and Druids are both better casters and healers, Paladin is a better fighter. I love Clerics and I've played more than a few - Dark Apostate is especially cool - but I'm not going to pretend that it wouldn't be straight up easier and better to play almost any other class.

I am not talking about Nerfing Paladin either. It is so bad of a imbalance that thought never crossed my mind. I like Cleric now. I don't think it needs more power. I even read Caster Cleric is so good, but I do Melee Cleric. My Melee based Cleric is about right. That would just create more problems. Probably why most Caster DC Clerics have not noticed.

I don't think Paladins would miss True Resurrection that much. I don't see it as a nerf. I think they can maybe get Resurrection at lvl20 from a Heroic enhancement Core or T5 if they want. It is a T5 Epic enhancement in EA. Now Raise Dead should be a lvl4 Pally Spell. I think that fits in with the Balance. And then you have scrolls. But a Pally Resurrecting in the heat of combat. That is for the Caster based Divine.

[Xgya]

Small correction.

Paladins get an Enhancement at level 12 that says "True Resurrection is a level 4 Paladin spell".
They can't cast it at all at that level, not even from a scroll.

They get their first 4th level spell slot at level 14, at which point they COULD, if they so chose, not to prepare any of the more awesome level 4 Paladin spells to get True Resurrection at that point.

...Or they could use that spell slot to prepare, say, Cure Serious Wounds, a spell they would probably get more mileage out of, and which the Clerics have been casting since they were level 5, all of that without having to spend a precious spell slot. It would STILL be a bad idea, but it would probably be better than True Resurrection by any stretch.

Are there some things Paladins do better than Clerics? Yes, there are.
Should there be? Yes, there should.

In DDO, Clerics are better at healing people with magic and protecting them from harm, and Paladins are better at bringing people back after the harm got to them too hard.

[Fireball241]

Small correction.

Paladins get an Enhancement at level 12 that says "True Resurrection is a level 4 Paladin spell".
They can't cast it at all at that level, not even from a scroll.

They get their first 4th level spell slot at level 14, at which point they COULD, if they so chose, not to prepare any of the more awesome level 4 Paladin spells to get True Resurrection at that point.

...Or they could use that spell slot to prepare, say, Cure Serious Wounds, a spell they would probably get more mileage out of, and which the Clerics have been casting since they were level 5, all of that without having to spend a precious spell slot. It would STILL be a bad idea, but it would probably be better than True Resurrection by any stretch.

Are there some things Paladins do better than Clerics? Yes, there are.
Should there be? Yes, there should.

In DDO, Clerics are better at healing people with magic and protecting them from harm, and Paladins are better at bringing people back after the harm got to them too hard.

I see these points, so why even give True Raz n the first place?
Why give all three? Resurrection should not be a 3rd level spell for Paladin. Raise Dead could be a 4th level spell, but I get it about the limited spell slots. Just grant it at a higher Paladin level and keep at for Spell lvl3 to free up 4th lvl slots. Paladin level 12 Core is a joke. Maybe do Raise dead at lvl12 Core and Rez at lvl18 Core. There are a few ways to change it without slapping Clerics in the face.


"In DDO, Clerics are better at healing people with magic and protecting them from harm, and Paladins are better at bringing people back after the harm got to them too hard."
As for this opinion that Paladins should be better at bringing characters back to life after they are dead than Clerics I would have to totally disagree with that. Goes against every version of the game in existence from PnP to video games. Now you are just being more insulting to Clerics than the Devs with this. lol

[Xgya]

"In DDO, Clerics are better at healing people with magic and protecting them from harm, and Paladins are better at bringing people back after the harm got to them too hard."
As for this opinion that Paladins should be better at bringing characters back to life after they are dead than Clerics I would have to totally disagree with that. Goes against every version of the game in existence from PnP to video games. Now you are just being more insulting to Clerics than the Devs with this. lol

If you want to make resurrection the Cleric-only thing, do it. Get rid of the scrolls, and watch everyone go up to the barricades.
To me, the scrolls are FAR more of an insult to the ability that you'd like to be unique to Clerics than the Paladin's ability is, at least given the DDO economy where platinum is almost worthless. Yes, platinum being worthless "goes against every version of the game in existence", but it also makes the cost of scrolls trivial, which is what balances it in those other versions of the game.

Now, because this ISN'T supposed to be a Cleric-only thing, that, for most of their careers at least, Clerics are only mildly better at it than Rogues is okay.

That thing Paladins get better at than Clerics can be? It requires 21 AP to the Cleric's grand total of 0.
Does that expenditure validate Paladins being better at it for a grand total of 3 levels?