Doubleshot, Ranged Power, Imbue Dice, and Sneak Attack ...how do these work together?

[Torkzed]

I have been researching ranged builds recently, and I am having a hard time determining exactly how some of the relevant stats play together. I'm hoping someone can shed some light on it for me.


So it appears that there are many ways to approach a ranged build. Obviously, having a lot of Doubleshot, Ranged Power, and extra damage dice (sneak, imbue, or both) is a good thing. But what is the mix I should be striving for? Is one of these stats "better" than the others?

More focused question: When doubleshot "procs", do the extra damage dice (imbue or sneak) get added again as well? As a very simple example, suppose I use a longbow (1d8 dam) and I have 50% doubleshot, 100 ranged power, and 1 sneak attack die. How is the average damage going to fall out? (The wiki shows sneak damage scales 150% with ranged power, which complicates it a bit, but I think I have the formulae straight below.)

Is it

base*(1+ds)*(100+rp)/100+ sneak*(1.5*(100+rp)/100) = 4.5*1.5*2 + 3.5*1.5*2 = 24

Or

base*(1+ds)*(100+rp)/100 + sneak*(1+ds)*(1.5*(100+rp)/100) = 4.5*1.5*2 + 3.5*1.5*1.5*2 = 29.25


I have looked at Carpone's U53 Ranged Showdown thread. The spreadsheet is very nice, but I don't seem to be able to pull actual formulae out of it. Maybe my excel skills are weak...

Thanks,

Torkz

[archest]

you forgot to add in Lag which is out of every 4 shots 3 miss and 1 doesn't register.

[misterski]

Edit: Bleh, I was absolutely, positively, 100 percent, incorrect. Confused the non-damage problems with the DA/DS changes with the effects on imbue damage.

[Discpsycho]

No. This was one of the major complaints when they changed DA/DS for performance reasons.

Only technically true, but mostly false. When you doubleshot, you won't get multiple SA / imbue procs, but the damage for these effects will double.

The major complaint when they changed to doublestrike/doubleshot was that non-damage on-hit procs, like AA's Paralyzing Arrows, will only have a chance to proc once per attack regardless of doublestrike/shot

[Torkzed]

So I have one person telling me my first calculation is correct (SA *is not* affected by doubleshot procs), and another saying my second is correct (SA *is* affected by doubleshot procs). I certainly appreciate the responses, but it doesn't help me if the opinion is evenly divided. Anyone want to break the tie?

I guess I am going to have to do my own testing...

[droid327]

So I have one person telling me my first calculation is correct (SA *is not* affected by doubleshot procs), and another saying my second is correct (SA *is* affected by doubleshot procs). I certainly appreciate the responses, but it doesn't help me if the opinion is evenly divided. Anyone want to break the tie?

I guess I am going to have to do my own testing...

Doubleshot doubles all the damage your base shot would do, including sneak and imbue die

So RP and Dshot are straight multipliers to all your ranged damage (assuming your Imbue scales on RP and not SP)

Imbue and Sneak die add to your base damage, which gets multiplied by the above

(Base + 1.5*Sneak + Imbue damage) * (100+RP/100) * (1+DS) [that isnt *precisely* correct for Sneak but it makes the formula much easier to read lol]

So the best mix is usually evenly spread between the three - the more you have of any one, the more valuable the others get

[Brac]

If the goal is high damage and not a flavor build, get as many imbue dice as you can between build, feats, gear, destiny, enhancements, filigrees, etc. Then use an imbue that scales off of spell power, because you can achieve higher spell power then you can ranged power. Ranged weapon choice will then usually determine next direction to go. Dagger is going to push doubleshot for really big hits of imbue. Repeater with extra clip if you want not as big of hits, but lots of them. Carpones information was good but is dated since it was prior to the imbue updates.

[o2t4f]

So I have one person telling me my first calculation is correct (SA *is not* affected by doubleshot procs), and another saying my second is correct (SA *is* affected by doubleshot procs). I certainly appreciate the responses, but it doesn't help me if the opinion is evenly divided. Anyone want to break the tie?

I guess I am going to have to do my own testing...

misterski is wrong. Just go with what discpsycho and droid327 are saying.

[Bjond]

Doubleshot doubles all the damage your base shot would do, including sneak and imbue die

I think your colloquial use of base there adds a bit of confusion, since DDO has it's own way of using "base" as "weapon dice". I'm just going to restate the math, since that dodges DDO's rather byzantine terminology. Stripping out the confusion, the math is fairly simple:

Total = ((Physical x Critical + Sneak + Imbue) x Power + Procs) x Double

Usually in DDO "base" and "physical" are used interchangeably as "that piece multiplied on a critical hit"; ie. the naked weapon damage.

The above math shows how the major parts operate. It also shows why increasing the least of the 3 scalars gives you the most improvement; eg. if you have 10 power and 100 Double, it takes 1+Power to increase your total by ~10%, but needs 10+Double for the same gain. If you really want to drill down on improving, you'll need an exact model for your damage -- the above is for gross clarity only, it conveys concept at the expense of detail.

BTW, at risk of further confusion, the side comments in earlier posts about proc-rate are true: doubleshot and doublestrike no longer give more real shots or strikes and thus things that have a "chance per hit" of happening only get one chance. Doubleshot/strike are now pure damage multipliers only, though they do that by giving a chance of 2x damage, which again confuses by tossing in more chance-of to the details. Unless (yes, there's more) you're using dual or repeating xbow -- those give real extra shots.

[Torkzed]

Thanks for the replies. Very helpful. In particular, this nugget (partial quote below) addressed a question I had about the importance of how one chooses between imbue and sneak dice---

....use an imbue that scales off of spell power, because you can achieve higher spell power then you can ranged power. .

I had been considering this a flavor choice only. This comment dragged me back to the wiki, where I learned that most sources of imbue dice scale off 100% spell power, while sneak attack scales off 150% ranged power. So I would guess that potential spell power must be significantly higher than ranged power to make imbue the better choice? (I'm not arguing the point, just pondering it...)

It also makes me wonder about the ratio of damage that does scale off RP versus the amount that would come from imbue damage. From a gearing simplicity standpoint, it would seem more straightforward to only have to press hard for ranged power, rather than trying get high values of both spell power and ranged power. So I may stick with sneak dice approach just to simplify gearing.

I've been playing for years, but I have never really dug deep into the mechanics of ranged DPS (I'm a caster by nature...) It is fascinating and I am always amazed by the level of complexity in builds/gear choices....

[Bjond]

potential spell power must be significantly higher than ranged power to make imbue the better choice? (I'm not arguing the point, just pondering

Practical gear puts easy Spellpower @ ~450 with another ~100 if you stack on insightful and quality. A truly dedicated focus on SP can push it over 1K, but that's well into the sacrificial range (your ranged power and other ranged stats are likely to suffer). The trick would be to find gear that permits you to push SP without dumping other ranged stats to get there OR finding an imbue that makes it worth dumping those stats in favor of the imbue.

Easily achievable Ranged Power on a DPS build will be 375+ with full AF stacks, putting 2xRP @ 750+ and 1.5xRP @ ~560+. A 16x3x5 critical rate is a 1.65x multiplier on physical damage; 15x3x5 (as found on a bard thrower) would be x1.75. This beats Sneak attack's 1.5x multiplier and all the x1 imbues, but is worse than 2xRP or high SP. So, IF you have a nice imbue (2xRP or 1xSP and it's not one of the "pointless" types like bleeding or poison), then you can build on that greater scaling to achieve nicer DPS than you could with physical.

BTW, that only considers auto-attack DPS. There are other very significant factors such as Shiradi Mantle scaling off imbue dice and 2xRP and Hunt's End + Sniper Shot, which leverages high critical multipliers (ie. bows). It's complex to compare these with each other. One build can't do it all. You have to make choices. This is no doubt what motivated Carpone to write his own ranged-dps calculator. There's no parser and just plain too much going on to make reliable build decisions at the high end without one.

[magaiti]

Shiradi Mantle scaling off imbue dice is not good enough to blindly go with Imbue Dice over everything else.
AFAIK it's +1d77 per 7 imbue dice, with a big but. It only applies to Stay Whatever stance procs, which have 15% proc chance.
This brings it down to (((1 + 77) / 2) / 7) * 0.15 = 0.836 extra damage per imbue die per shot.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...r-7-imbue-dice

[Jeromio]

Shiradi Mantle scaling off imbue dice is not good enough to blindly go with Imbue Dice over everything else.
AFAIK it's +1d77 per 7 imbue dice, with a big but. It only applies to Stay Whatever stance procs, which have 15% proc chance.
This brings it down to (((1 + 77) / 2) / 7) * 0.15 = 0.836 extra damage per imbue die per shot.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...r-7-imbue-dice

IMHO it's still good enough to build for it. My last life I ran with an inquis imbue build. The Shiradi proc damage was about 10-12k with 38 imbue dice (i.e. 5d77) on regular hits... so adding about 1500-1800 damage on average per bolt. I thought that was quite nice as bonus damage to the regular base and imbue damage.

[Brac]

Shiradi Mantle scaling off imbue dice is not good enough to blindly go with Imbue Dice over everything else.
AFAIK it's +1d77 per 7 imbue dice, with a big but. It only applies to Stay Whatever stance procs, which have 15% proc chance.
This brings it down to (((1 + 77) / 2) / 7) * 0.15 = 0.836 extra damage per imbue die per shot.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...r-7-imbue-dice

I get what your saying, but that's not how it works. 6 imbue dice is nothing, 7 is an extra d77. So only multiples of 7 are relevant, figuring per die is pointless. An imbue build will generally have 35+ imbue, maybe 28+ if trying to balance doubleshot and ranged power. That is at least an extra 4d77 with 5d77 being more common. You also need to figure in the scaling off of ranged or spell power. Then figure in doubleshot, if it is a doubleshot build. I don't math, but I can tell you on my dagger thrower imbue build, a shiradi proc is instant mob delete. So a 15% chance to insta-kill while still doing thousands in imbue damage per hit, yeah, I will take that.

[Smelt32]

Thanks for the replies. Very helpful. In particular, this nugget (partial quote below) addressed a question I had about the importance of how one chooses between imbue and sneak dice---



I had been considering this a flavor choice only. This comment dragged me back to the wiki, where I learned that most sources of imbue dice scale off 100% spell power, while sneak attack scales off 150% ranged power. So I would guess that potential spell power must be significantly higher than ranged power to make imbue the better choice? (I'm not arguing the point, just pondering it...)

It also makes me wonder about the ratio of damage that does scale off RP versus the amount that would come from imbue damage. From a gearing simplicity standpoint, it would seem more straightforward to only have to press hard for ranged power, rather than trying get high values of both spell power and ranged power. So I may stick with sneak dice approach just to simplify gearing.

I've been playing for years, but I have never really dug deep into the mechanics of ranged DPS (I'm a caster by nature...) It is fascinating and I am always amazed by the level of complexity in builds/gear choices....

I'm sure know, but just in case you don't, the Law on your side imbue from the inquisitive tree scales on 200% ranged power.

[Oliphant]

Total = ((Physical x Critical + Sneak + Imbue) x Power + Procs) x Double

I thought criticals applied to sneak dice. Just confirmed on wiki, nope.

[Sqrlmonger]

If the goal is high damage and not a flavor build, get as many imbue dice as you can between build, feats, gear, destiny, enhancements, filigrees, etc. Then use an imbue that scales off of spell power, because you can achieve higher spell power then you can ranged power. Ranged weapon choice will then usually determine next direction to go. Dagger is going to push doubleshot for really big hits of imbue. Repeater with extra clip if you want not as big of hits, but lots of them. Carpones information was good but is dated since it was prior to the imbue updates.

I get what your saying, but that's not how it works. 6 imbue dice is nothing, 7 is an extra d77. So only multiples of 7 are relevant, figuring per die is pointless. An imbue build will generally have 35+ imbue, maybe 28+ if trying to balance doubleshot and ranged power. That is at least an extra 4d77 with 5d77 being more common. You also need to figure in the scaling off of ranged or spell power. Then figure in doubleshot, if it is a doubleshot build. I don't math, but I can tell you on my dagger thrower imbue build, a shiradi proc is instant mob delete. So a 15% chance to insta-kill while still doing thousands in imbue damage per hit, yeah, I will take that.

The u53 Ranged showdown does pre-date imbues but it doesn't matter because imbues don't come close to competing Carpone's results in that thread.

Using your 35d6+5d77 we get 161.5 average damage. Even assuming 1000 spell power on a ranged toon and then doubling the damage for 100% doubleshot gives ~3600 damage as a rough calculation.

But at what cost? Because in reality you won't have that kind of spell power or that kind of doubleshot if you go all in on imbues. Your pre-imbue normal hits and crits will at best likely be in the 6-8k and 18-30k range respectively. You may not even have sniper shot to pair with Hunt's end, but even if you do your hunt's end+sniper shot is likely to only be around 80k. I'm estimating a bit here but all of the Doubleshot, ranged power, +damage, etc.. you missed in AP because you went for imbues is going to hurt your base damage a lot.

Meanwhile Carpone's 1st life bow build is capable of spitting out regular hits for 10-20k, regular crits for 40-60k, and Hunt's End + Sniper Shot crits of 120-210k or more. This is just based on the "easy to get" non-raid gear set he recommends. I haven't been working on that character much so haven't tested what it does when it's fully online. To be fair I suspect most of the improvement will come in survivability though TBH, but the KT bow upgrade will be nice. I should note you have to be able to understand the abilities and debuffs of the build and properly use them to get these numbers, but it's not actually that difficult. But I digress.

Bottom line, if there is a path to make imbues desirable to pursue on high-end ranged DPS builds I've yet to see any evidence for it. I think it's probably closer on casters, but I'm honestly skeptical it's optimal there as well.

[Brac]

The u53 Ranged showdown does pre-date imbues but it doesn't matter because imbues don't come close to competing Carpone's results in that thread.

Using your 35d6+5d77 we get 161.5 average damage. Even assuming 1000 spell power on a ranged toon and then doubling the damage for 100% doubleshot gives ~3600 damage as a rough calculation.

But at what cost? Because in reality you won't have that kind of spell power or that kind of doubleshot if you go all in on imbues. Your pre-imbue normal hits and crits will at best likely be in the 6-8k and 18-30k range respectively. You may not even have sniper shot to pair with Hunt's end, but even if you do your hunt's end+sniper shot is likely to only be around 80k. I'm estimating a bit here but all of the Doubleshot, ranged power, +damage, etc.. you missed in AP because you went for imbues is going to hurt your base damage a lot.

Meanwhile Carpone's 1st life bow build is capable of spitting out regular hits for 10-20k, regular crits for 40-60k, and Hunt's End + Sniper Shot crits of 120-210k or more. This is just based on the "easy to get" non-raid gear set he recommends. I haven't been working on that character much so haven't tested what it does when it's fully online. To be fair I suspect most of the improvement will come in survivability though TBH, but the KT bow upgrade will be nice. I should note you have to be able to understand the abilities and debuffs of the build and properly use them to get these numbers, but it's not actually that difficult. But I digress.

Bottom line, if there is a path to make imbues desirable to pursue on high-end ranged DPS builds I've yet to see any evidence for it. I think it's probably closer on casters, but I'm honestly skeptical it's optimal there as well.

This whole paragraph just shows you have no idea of what top end ranged DPS is right now and I am not going to take the time to educate you. Carpones guide was fantastic for the time it was written. The game has changed. It looks like you just got left behind. Go ahead and play your old builds, they can still be fine, no one said they were bad. But they are not in a top DPS discussion. Imbue changes borderline broke the game with the damage increases for the right builds. You either know this and are pretending you don't, hoping the "secret" doesn't get out, or you are in the dark.

[Sqrlmonger]

This whole paragraph just shows you have no idea of what top end ranged DPS is right now and I am not going to take the time to educate you. Carpones guide was fantastic for the time it was written. The game has changed. It looks like you just got left behind. Go ahead and play your old builds, they can still be fine, no one said they were bad. But they are not in a top DPS discussion. Imbue changes borderline broke the game with the damage increases for the right builds. You either know this and are pretending you don't, hoping the "secret" doesn't get out, or you are in the dark.

re: Bolded - It's kinda odd that you apparently felt insulted and wanted to take jab at me. Even more so that you apparently think it's important to me to be seen as "one of the in crowd". I used to play more but I really only play on Friday and occasional Sundays anymore. If that is "beneath" you that really doesn't say anything about me. It just makes you elitist, if that wasn't your intent you can drop the attitude, it does you no favors.

Either way, what I said at the end of my post still applies. Which is that I see no evidence and that remains true in spite of your assertions.

So if you have information to share then do so, otherwise it's just another post on the internet claiming something without any reason to believe it.

Cheers~

[magaiti]

I get what your saying, but that's not how it works. 6 imbue dice is nothing, 7 is an extra d77. So only multiples of 7 are relevant, figuring per die is pointless. An imbue build will generally have 35+ imbue, maybe 28+ if trying to balance doubleshot and ranged power. That is at least an extra 4d77 with 5d77 being more common.

Okay then, That still averages to ~0.8 base damage per imbue, multiple of 7 or not.