A Raid that can be done with ZERO combat

[Stradivarius]

I would like to see at least 1 raid that has no combat... just traps, puzzles, and solved through non-combat oriented skills like diplomacy or perform.

That isn't to say it will be easy since the standard "gear checks" won't exist. But it would be primarily based on player skill rather than MOAR DAMAGE or MOAR HP or something asinine like that (isn't anyone else tired of this type of gameplay?)

So to make it difficult, the entire raid can be timed (maybe a time bomb goes off killing everything in Xendrik etc.) Lots of movement based obstacle courses and puzzle reasoning. Throw in hitting moving targets with ranged weapons to unlock doors, teamwork (one party member needs to perform certain emotes while another party member jumps onto disappearing/re-appearing emote triggered pillars.), and gear checks based on non-combat oriented skills like perform or diplo (need to diplo a certain NPCs FAST enough to get through a certain part).

Thoughts?

[Logicman69]

I would like to see at least 1 raid that has no combat... just traps, puzzles, and solved through non-combat oriented skills like diplomacy or perform.

That isn't to say it will be easy since the standard "gear checks" won't exist. But it would be primarily based on player skill rather than MOAR DAMAGE or MOAR HP or something asinine like that (isn't anyone else tired of this type of gameplay?)

So to make it difficult, the entire raid can be timed (maybe a time bomb goes off killing everything in Xendrik etc.) Lots of movement based obstacle courses and puzzle reasoning. Throw in hitting moving targets with ranged weapons to unlock doors, teamwork (one party member needs to perform certain emotes while another party member jumps onto disappearing/re-appearing emote triggered pillars.), and gear checks based on non-combat oriented skills like perform or diplo (need to diplo a certain NPCs FAST enough to get through a certain part).

Thoughts?

I love the idea of a no (or limited) combat raid. The only issue with a timed mechanic is the lag monster. Raids can be laggier than normal quests, to the point where ranged attacks will not trigger, or jumping is difficult. The mechanics would have to be forgiving enough to compensate for this, but still challenging enough to make it raid-worthy. I do like the general concept though.

[Bunker]

My thoughts are directly proportional to the amount of combat you are suggesting this raid contains.

None

[Oxarhamar]

I would like to see at least 1 raid that has no combat... just traps, puzzles, and solved through non-combat oriented skills like diplomacy or perform.

That isn't to say it will be easy since the standard "gear checks" won't exist. But it would be primarily based on player skill rather than MOAR DAMAGE or MOAR HP or something asinine like that (isn't anyone else tired of this type of gameplay?)

So to make it difficult, the entire raid can be timed (maybe a time bomb goes off killing everything in Xendrik etc.) Lots of movement based obstacle courses and puzzle reasoning. Throw in hitting moving targets with ranged weapons to unlock doors, teamwork (one party member needs to perform certain emotes while another party member jumps onto disappearing/re-appearing emote triggered pillars.), and gear checks based on non-combat oriented skills like perform or diplo (need to diplo a certain NPCs FAST enough to get through a certain part).

Thoughts?

No thanks

[ahpook]

I love the idea of a no (or limited) combat raid. The only issue with a timed mechanic is the lag monster. Raids can be laggier than normal quests, to the point where ranged attacks will not trigger, or jumping is difficult. The mechanics would have to be forgiving enough to compensate for this, but still challenging enough to make it raid-worthy. I do like the general concept though.

The lag in raids is often due to the pathing of larger numbers of mobs in battle. So if there is no fighting the lag is likely far less of an issue.

TO the OP's point, it would be an interesting idea if SSG had spent any time in the last dozen years trying to make this type of quest. However, their focus has consistently been on battle so I don't think they have trained a player base to want such a raid nor developed the ability to create such a raid. Perhaps they could start with a non-raid first where expectations may be lower.

[Drunkendex]

Raid with no combat?

How about no. HARD NO.

Raid that has optional checks (like bluff in D&D raid) that can make raid smoother or even give bonus named loot?

YES PLEASE!

[Bacab]

I would like to see at least 1 raid that has no combat... just traps, puzzles, and solved through non-combat oriented skills like diplomacy or perform.

That isn't to say it will be easy since the standard "gear checks" won't exist. But it would be primarily based on player skill rather than MOAR DAMAGE or MOAR HP or something asinine like that (isn't anyone else tired of this type of gameplay?)

So to make it difficult, the entire raid can be timed (maybe a time bomb goes off killing everything in Xendrik etc.) Lots of movement based obstacle courses and puzzle reasoning. Throw in hitting moving targets with ranged weapons to unlock doors, teamwork (one party member needs to perform certain emotes while another party member jumps onto disappearing/re-appearing emote triggered pillars.), and gear checks based on non-combat oriented skills like perform or diplo (need to diplo a certain NPCs FAST enough to get through a certain part).

Thoughts?

Go run the Titan Raid. It is close to what you are describing.

The last paragraph is literally like 80-90% of the Reaver Raid at level 14.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Skill checks are equivalent to fighting. Have gear and past lives? You win. They are the same.

There will never be a raid where combat is not a factor at all but there are already plenty of examples of raids with puzzle like sections.

ToD2 had the different paths people could take. If you've ever run the raid, have you ever gone to the dwarven maze that uses intelligence checks? I definitely don't remember anything about it. Groups never choose to go that way. The light mirrors are a puzzle but unfortunately they are static and offer no replay value.

The Reaver's Fate includes the master mind puzzle and it is not static. Nobody actually solves it though, even though the content is now trivial, they use an online solver that was made explicitly for this game and has existed for a decade at least instead of risk failure.

RtSO has puzzles which aren't static and a timer in the form of constant pressure from the lightning, but all I ever hear about that raid is whining and comments that nobody runs it. The raid itself is actually a solid coordination and composure check even if the memory puzzles themselves aren't at all difficult.

Heroic Abbot is by far the best raid in the game simply because of tiles. Yea, you can cheese tiles and anybody running it these days 100% does, but before people found out about that it was a pure player check. And yet people wouldn't have run it past its prime if it did not drop incomparable loot.

So...yea, people don't want this. It's funny that one of the things that most sets DDO apart from competing options is the puzzles but at every opportunity the player base complains, ignores, or cheats instead of engaging with them,

[droid327]

The problem with puzzles is its really hard to design ones that are consistently challenging. Static puzzles obviously dont have enough replay value, but dynamic puzzles require a huge amount of extra design. Thats why the best we have are simplistic things like Simon that simply wouldnt be enough challenge to validate being a raid.

One option is platforming, because that requires player skill even if its a static map - but A) a lot of people hate platforming, B) its far more vulnerable to lag since its usually a "one failure = restart" kind of setup and that's hugely frustrating, and C) while its definitely a part of DDO, its definitely not the core gameplay most players want, combat is - so again that kinda invalidates it from being the central feature of something as important as a raid

[Oxarhamar]

Skill checks are equivalent to fighting. Have gear and past lives? You win. They are the same.

There will never be a raid where combat is not a factor at all but there are already plenty of examples of raids with puzzle like sections.

ToD2 had the different paths people could take. If you've ever run the raid, have you ever gone to the dwarven maze that uses intelligence checks? I definitely don't remember anything about it. Groups never choose to go that way. The light mirrors are a puzzle but unfortunately they are static and offer no replay value.

The Reaver's Fate includes the master mind puzzle and it is not static. Nobody actually solves it though, even though the content is now trivial, they use an online solver that was made explicitly for this game and has existed for a decade at least instead of risk failure.

RtSO has puzzles which aren't static and a timer in the form of constant pressure from the lightning, but all I ever hear about that raid is whining and comments that nobody runs it. The raid itself is actually a solid coordination and composure check even if the memory puzzles themselves aren't at all difficult.

Heroic Abbot is by far the best raid in the game simply because of tiles. Yea, you can cheese tiles and anybody running it these days 100% does, but before people found out about that it was a pure player check. And yet people wouldn't have run it past its prime if it did not drop incomparable loot.

So...yea, people don't want this. It's funny that one of the things that most sets DDO apart from competing options is the puzzles but at every opportunity the player base complains, ignores, or cheats instead of engaging with them,

Puzzles are fine with combat


Deathwyrm is a good example having both

Players will always ignore or skip what they can while some won’t that’s personal preference

[magaiti]

Try Abbot.

[Sqrlmonger]

I could get behind a raid with lots of checks that bypass fights.

I would do something like a strange laboratory with experiment rooms.

Platforming - Sneak in through the entry passed the guardian a sleeping dragon..better take the rafters up above and let our friend sleep down below. While sleeping his tail might swish and hit a support pillar causing disruption, wings might cause wind effecting the trajectory of your jumps. Maybe some other (or better) disruptions. Falling triggers the fight.

Cleaning Crew - Kunark Scientist is done with his experiment but he needs some help activating the self-clean on the test chamber above the lab. One of his assistants went up there and had some fizzy drinks and made a mess of things. Be careful not to touch anything though, he fears if it gets any more messy that S.U.G.A.R. (Self-cleaning Utility and Garbage Abatement Robot) will show up! Basically a huge vertical shaft with air jets throwing you up. On the way up there are occasional platforms that have the next airjet, the bottom side of these airjet platforms have red-colored blackout buttons that if pressed cause SUGAR to show up. Make it to the very top where it's only safe to hit the green blackout button in the center of a spinning blade and any damage to someone from the blade causes SUGAR to show up.

Whack-a-target - One of the labs needs you to keep the power flowing while he reanimates a frankensteins monster. DD check to convince the scientist you know enough about a breaker box to help out. Success opens up a Whack-a-mole style game for a ranged character to reset circuit breakers by shooting target levers (since you can't get close enough due to the voltages involved or something). Game times how long they are down and up and uses some threshold for success/failure based on that. If you fail the creature is corrupted/angry/whatever and wants to kill everyone.

Healers - Jorasco scientist is using heavily modified flesh golems as conduits for negative energy to test theories about the energy but it keeps creating micro Portals to the plane of Mabar. Would you mind helping him stabilize his golem conduits? At least long enough to do his tests? Unfortunately the energy is unpredictable and the modifications to the golems make them vulnerable to its somewhat random outbursts. Oh and it occasionally causes the golems to oscillate between negative and positive energy attunement (clear visible effect indicator of which status they're in)...which is apparently a new discovery! But no time for that now, can you keep the golems alive long enough for him to test his theories? Healers keep an array of 9 golems alive, if they take too much damage they die. If you don't keep enough alive a portal opens and something nasty comes through. (this one might need a rework or might not work, worst case I'm sure there are other ideas).

Casters - Phiarlan scientist something something cast the right elemental spells (low level spells are fine) on the right targets failure causes a fight.

Race/Obstacles - Cannith scientist is testing his new golem's parkour abilities, can you beat his time? Running, jumping, hitting floor switches to toggle doors, and just generally being a test of character movement control and speed. Not really difficult on the jumps or confusing about where to go/what to do, just requires precise movements. Doable without wings, spacing makes it so only a couple places where wings are purely helpful. If you beat the time the golem doesn't go on a rampage and need killing.

Even with all of that I would probably still have the final fight since it is a raid, but similar to Tempest Spine each of the bypasses you accomplished could power the boss down until he is relatively weak fully disabled (thematically the labs are either destroyed or shut down due to completion). Without any bypass I would have the boss be VERY difficult and with full bypasses have him be relatively easy.

Each of the non-fight skill checks prior to the boss would take ~2-3 minutes. So the raid has to decide which they want to do concurrently and which they would rather do together in case a fight breaks out.

Anyways, that's what this idea made me think of. I think it could definitely work if done right.

[Targal]

Heroic Abbot is by far the best raid in the game simply because of tiles. Yea, you can cheese tiles and anybody running it these days 100% does, but before people found out about that it was a pure player check. And yet people wouldn't have run it past its prime if it did not drop incomparable loot.

ironically, abbot is my love

[cmecu]

I would like to see at least 1 raid that has no combat... just traps, puzzles, and solved through non-combat oriented skills like diplomacy or perform.

That isn't to say it will be easy since the standard "gear checks" won't exist. But it would be primarily based on player skill rather than MOAR DAMAGE or MOAR HP or something asinine like that (isn't anyone else tired of this type of gameplay?)

So to make it difficult, the entire raid can be timed (maybe a time bomb goes off killing everything in Xendrik etc.) Lots of movement based obstacle courses and puzzle reasoning. Throw in hitting moving targets with ranged weapons to unlock doors, teamwork (one party member needs to perform certain emotes while another party member jumps onto disappearing/re-appearing emote triggered pillars.), and gear checks based on non-combat oriented skills like perform or diplo (need to diplo a certain NPCs FAST enough to get through a certain part).

Thoughts?

There is a raid that was quite difficult at one time, and still can be if people dont have it memorized or use wiki and that is Temple of the Deathwyrm
It has many mechanics , most I dont even know. I just followed everyone else. You have certain portals to go through, Red light Green light area, Mirrors.. Things have to be done a certain way.. I dont even know it, but I know it is complicated.

The loot is obsolete, and maybe part of the reason why hardly anyone does it any more. It could been too challenging for people, because many people like to blow up everything with one button, and the raid be over in a couple minutes.

You dont find too many games and gamers for the matter that really get into those super long encounters. I remember spending an entire night with a raid of 72 people fighting trash , to get to the boss, and it take forever to kill it too. Yup Everquest. Thats a life stealing game :P

I dont think many gamers like long commitments any more, or things that are too complicated because it feels too much like work instead of fun. .but that is subjective too.

[Wizard1406]

One option is platforming, because that requires player skill even if its a static map - but A) a lot of people hate platforming, B) its far more vulnerable to lag since its usually a "one failure = restart" kind of setup and that's hugely frustrating, and C) while its definitely a part of DDO, its definitely not the core gameplay most players want, combat is - so again that kinda invalidates it from being the central feature of something as important as a raid

DDO's engine doesn't do platforming well AT ALL. (lag, desync, camera issues etc.) IMHO there should never again be a quest or raid again that has platforming in a mandatory part. Luckily they mostly abandoned it and only have some easy platforming in the obligatory parts.

[axel15810]

I don't think there's a reason to eliminate combat entirely. As for focusing more on puzzles and such for a raid, I'd be all for more of that...if we get some interesting new puzzles and mechanics instead of rehashes of old ones or ones that just feel like a chore.

We do have a lot of raids already where the majority of the focus is on non-combat stuff.

DDO's engine doesn't do platforming well AT ALL. (lag, desync, camera issues etc.) IMHO there should never again be a quest or raid again that has platforming in a mandatory part. Luckily they mostly abandoned it and only have some easy platforming in the obligatory parts.

I may be in the minority here but I have always liked platforming in DDO and the complaints of lag and such making it untenable have in general been vastly exaggerated based on my experiences. Which granted could vary from others. Yeah occasionally hitching will mess you up but it's not that bad overall, in my experience. I am all for more challenging platforming in DDO and would love to see it. May be best to keep it only as optionals, however, as I will acknowledge there's a sizable amount of players that seem to hate it in DDO.

But seriously though SSG give me something snowpeak challenge course-esque but as an optional in a quest or raid.

[Oxarhamar]

But seriously though SSG give me something snowpeak challenge course-esque but as an optional in a quest or raid.

Deathwym

[axel15810]

Deathwym

Na. If you're referring to the jump room in deathwyrm that's not even remotely comparable to Snowpeaks challenge course. That room is not difficult if you have abundant step, leap of faith, cannith boots, etc. as you can completely bypass the only challenging platforming part. That specific part of the jump room not even really being platforming honestly, more like camera angle management. IMO the column platform section in Down You Go is more challenging than the Deathwyrm jump room.

[Bunker]

The Stone Crypt Chronicle imo is a good example of avoiding monsters by making jumps and choosing the path that your group takes. Now on low difficulty, it might not matter as much, but on r10, avoiding mobs that you don't have to fight is a part of skilled questing on high difficulty.

If a raid had options that allowed for skipping sections of mobs based on platforming amd puzzles, that might be something. And let's say a player in you raid group falls, or misses a jump, then this activates mobs or activates a section that could otherwise be avoided.

Like giving a bonus to completing a section. This is already done in a puzzle format, IE. Part 3 of shroud. You can still complete the raid without solving all the puzzles, but by solving, you get extra chests.

What if there was a section of a raid that involved a similar reward for platforming?

[Bunker]

Needle in a Fey Stack is another example.

Adding a section to a raid that involves a jumping section much like the invisible platforms in NiaFS. Have the whole raid group jump, anyone that falls makes the group have to fight monsters. However, if anyone in the group makes the jump, you could lower a ladder to allow anyone to get bonus loot.

Something like that.

I'm not sure if I would make Mario jumping a demand to complete a raid, or make it necessary to get the raid loot, but bonus chests with worth wild extras would be nice.

You have to make the effort worth it, or in the long run, players would just skip over it every time