Kensai: A Suggestion

[Deslen]

When the new imbue dice system was rolled out, a few classes, pure fighter in particular, got hosed. As one of the handful of players who main a pure fighter, I lost 16d6 damage per swing. All sentient weapon procs were converted to imbue dice. Don't have an imbue? Well, too bad. Big middle finger. As a 'consolation', fighters were handed a bit of self healing that, while admittedly nice, is useless in high skulls.

Some posited at the time that this loss did not amount to much, but it was a loss all the same, while many got to truly enjoy a new system. I think that true compensation, something that could make kensai unique and interesting, is well within reach.

I suggest giving Kensai the ability to bypass DR with their signature weapon. A sorcerer can burn a fire elemental with his fireball and scorching ray, why can a kensai not slash skeletons apart with his blades?

If nothing more, as part of the capstone, let Kensai gain mettaline as well as aligned, blunt, piercing, and slashing to weapons they wield. Archers already gain blunt/piercing/slashing on their arrows as they so choose. Why not fighters?

If the devs feel it would be better spread out, then perhaps Core 12 could pick up Physical Types (Blunt/Piercing/Slashing), Core 18 could pick up Metalline, and Core 20 could pick up Aligned.

Having now spent some time playing caster, it is a bewildering world of difference. A little bit of set up, and I can use one element to destroy literally everything, weather it is logical or not. Why can the kensai, the true master of a given type of weapon, not do the same?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Everbright for oozes/rust monsters. plsplsplsplspls. Not joking, I want this more than the other stuff.

I don't think the DR breaking is that much of an issue for metal or alignment based DRs since options exist and often weapons have some built in DR breaker as well. Really it's more of the physical damage type that is an issue since you are punished for swapping to different weapon types and there isn't another option. I do think if Kensei and the "only one weapon despite its impracticality" systems are going to continue to exist, this really ought to be a thing, and the precedent of it existing for similarly-styled character builds only supports that position.

I don't think this should be in the 20 core though. In a vacuum the Kensei capstone is already absurdly powerful and I think the devs would balk at just adding even more power to it, and I sort of think they would be right. That being said, in reality the Kensei capstone is honestly kind of bad because 1) it precludes you from having Divine Might which is a big chunk of to-hit and 2) most of the power in the Kensei cap is the 16% double strike you get, which is unfortunately a huge waste because of the amount of double strike you can get elsewhere in the game. With the appropriate past lives (only 3 EPLs and 3 IPLs), VKF, and the appropriate gear a lvl 32 Fighter should have ~99% double strike passively. You also get to take VKF capstone for 5% added attack speed and 20 more melee power, keep the +2 all stats, and gain the benefits of the VKF 18 core. Adding any DR bypass to the Kensei capstone would not be adequate incentive to use it over competing options, it would simply be another "nice to have" that you don't get because the double strike is just too much of a waste and there are better obtainable competing options.

Personally I really would like 20 Fighter to be a viable choice for non SnB builds at endgame. The simplest option that I see would be to allow double strike to wrap the way that double shot does. Due to the mechanical change to how double strike/shot operate the reason for capping double strike no longer exists and this would prevent the double strike from things like the Kensei capstone, Reaper Double Strike Boost, and Action Hero being wasted. With inevitable continuance of power creep, I see this as only becoming more necessary as time passes. On the other hand, if the devs decide that that is completely undesirable/unachievable and they don't start giving us a lot less options to get double strike from gear, then I guess it would be fine to just change the double strike from the Kensei capstone to 5% added attack speed and 20 MP/RP. Comparing only 15% double strike/shot to 5% attack speed and 20 MP/RP I think the double strike is the larger DPS gain in a vacuum.

An additional issue for going pure Fighter, specifically Kensei and non-SnB is the lack of support from other enhancement trees in the class. Part of the reason right now that VKF is so good for Fighter right now even if you don't use daggers (and therefore don't benefit from half of the enhancements in the tree) is that there is nowhere else really for a THF or TWF Fighter to put enhancement points for damage, and the available options in tier 1-3 of Stalwart and Vanguard don't provide a meaningful amount of defense unless you're using a shield. So in addition to making the Kensei cap not "waste-able", I think it would be important to also make the enhancements in at least tiers 1 and 2 of the other Fighter trees more generally useful (read as: not intentionally designed to heavily discourage anyone not using a shield, but perhaps not using armor), and perhaps slightly more powerful.

Oh yea, I also think it would be a good idea to add a reason to be pure Fighter besides the enhancements. Make one or two feats (that are at least decent) that require 20 Fighter. As it is there is the only reason to go pure Fighter besides the capstones is a feat (that will likely be spent on something you could have obtained much earlier and has questionable total value, like +2 MP) and a 6th charge of Second Wind which...isn't bad but I don't think it's anything to get excited about either.

[Deslen]

Everbright for oozes/rust monsters. plsplsplsplspls. Not joking, I want this more than the other stuff.

Iirc, you can get that from Feydark Illustionist.

I don't think the DR breaking is that much of an issue for metal or alignment based DRs

I take Pierce Adamantine and Pierce Silver, along with Gird Against Demons to make sure I can break the common material types. Feels bad. I also am locked into an item that ads holy burst to my weapons to make them good aligned.

That, or I could farm up several more 10 slot sentients to have them slotted for DR breaking e.e;

Seriously, casters largely only need one sentient, where as a melee, you have to have several.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Iirc, you can get that from Feydark Illustionist.


I take Pierce Adamantine and Pierce Silver, along with Gird Against Demons to make sure I can break the common material types. Feels bad. I also am locked into an item that ads holy burst to my weapons to make them good aligned.

That, or I could farm up several more 10 slot sentients to have them slotted for DR breaking e.e;

Seriously, casters largely only need one sentient, where as a melee, you have to have several.

Interesting, I didn't know about that. It's 3 AP though which is unaffordable for a meta build.

Especially since you are mentioning epic feats... ESoS has adamantine, Epic Antique has metalline and good, every epic weapon has at least one red slot if not more, dino weapons give you your choice of DR breaker and have multiple slots. I think the only time where hitting into DR for an extended time actually feels bad and there isn't much to do about it is against skeletons.

[FuzzyDuck81]

An interesting option could be to give kensei an imbue that works a little differently - one of the main strengths of the fighter class is the ability to use tactical attacks so instead of outright damage, maybe something like +2 tactics DCs & +2% fortification bypass per imbue die? Really lean into the idea of them being experts at using skills in combat.

[mbartol]

I like the idea of applying imbue dice to other stats, but I doubt SSG would use imbues for anything other than imbue damage. Imagine what they would break if attempting to implement something like that—too many systems would be exposed.

[boredGamer]

An interesting option could be to give kensei an imbue that works a little differently - one of the main strengths of the fighter class is the ability to use tactical attacks so instead of outright damage, maybe something like +2 tactics DCs & +2% fortification bypass per imbue die? Really lean into the idea of them being experts at using skills in combat.

I really like the direction, but please add more decent tactical attacks along with this.

[Logicman69]

I really like the direction, but please add more decent tactical attacks along with this.

Or make some of the tactical attacks more useful. A T5 Enhancement could be that Trip/Stun works on all creatures (including reapers). This would give the fighter some usefulness in reaper besides damage/tank.

[Zites]

When the new imbue dice system was rolled out, a few classes, pure fighter in particular, got hosed. As one of the handful of players who main a pure fighter, I lost 16d6 damage per swing. All sentient weapon procs were converted to imbue dice. Don't have an imbue? Well, too bad. Big middle finger. As a 'consolation', fighters were handed a bit of self healing that, while admittedly nice, is useless in high skulls.

Some posited at the time that this loss did not amount to much, but it was a loss all the same, while many got to truly enjoy a new system. I think that true compensation, something that could make kensai unique and interesting, is well within reach.

I suggest giving Kensai the ability to bypass DR with their signature weapon. A sorcerer can burn a fire elemental with his fireball and scorching ray, why can a kensai not slash skeletons apart with his blades?

If nothing more, as part of the capstone, let Kensai gain mettaline as well as aligned, blunt, piercing, and slashing to weapons they wield. Archers already gain blunt/piercing/slashing on their arrows as they so choose. Why not fighters?

If the devs feel it would be better spread out, then perhaps Core 12 could pick up Physical Types (Blunt/Piercing/Slashing), Core 18 could pick up Metalline, and Core 20 could pick up Aligned.

Having now spent some time playing caster, it is a bewildering world of difference. A little bit of set up, and I can use one element to destroy literally everything, weather it is logical or not. Why can the kensai, the true master of a given type of weapon, not do the same?

Hi when it comes to Kensai what's great is the tier 5 enhancements, after that it falls short in the cores and practical application, this is a lazy design flaw in many of the enchantment trees done to encourage multiclass builds.

Like much of fighter it looks OP, folks get caught looking at a long list of subpar feats and enchantments.
When multiclassed is when it becomes OP not because it is OP, but because of the OP low hanging fruit in monk stances, Fav Divine Might, Druid and Warlock.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Fighter_bonus_feats
https://ddowiki.com/page/Kensei_enhancements

Its interesting how, ranger, rogue or barbarian can out dps a pure fighter with 1/3 the feats and x2 the defensive ability.

I've long suggested improving all core 6s, but especially fighter.

As they stand:

Kensei Alacrity:
+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats
+2 uses of Power Surge per Rest.

Vanguard Shield Champion:
While shield is equipped: +2 attack, +2 damage, +5% doublestrike, +1(W) to your shield, an additional +5% (total 20%) Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed, and shield bash stuns 10% of the time DC (10 + 1/2 Character lvl + strength modifier + stun bonus)

Stalwart Defender Last Stand:
Passive: You gain +2 Strength +6 Constitution +10 Physical and Magical Resist Ratings and +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats. Shield Action Boost: You gain +100% Maximum hit points, +50 Physical and Magical Resistance Rating, and On Attacked: You are healed for 1d10 positive energy healing. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless.

When compared with Blue Bar classes that can self heal in reaper 10 and wipe mobs with 1 burst of fire ect.
Rage and speed boost classes or Assassins, pure fighters fall short in many ways.

It would be cool if they gave them something in the core 6s that was exclusive to fighter and worked in r10.
Something like a blue bar trade off for a exclusive dps, tragical or defensive ability that worked in r10.
Along the lines of how the old Vanguard Shield Champion worked before they nerfed it, it worked on every thing.
It was much less OP then the 18 fighter mixed with Monk stances, Fav Divine Might, or Druid and Warlock builds we have today, maybe they should nerf them.

But what we will probably get is a Heavy Armor Arch Type which would be KOOL with me If they give it a pair and don't neuter it on the cutting room floor before it can see the light of day, because they hate FIGHTER.

I would call the new Heavy Armor Arch Type Fighter

THE DOGS BALLOCKS ;D

[DaviMOC]

OP, I dont think Kensei really needs compensation for the lack of imbues. If those filigree were major features of your pure fighter build there was something odd with it.
You can have better gains by just using the basic made for fighter/barb ones from saltmarsh for example.

However im in favor of diversity and choice I understand the sense of loss even if the choice was not being optimal.

Adding something there because of that would be boosting an already hard hitting spec .

A kensei fighter is no weak build, actually one of the hot melees builds right now have been a shifter 18fighter/1warlock/1fvs.

I cant see a 2hf barb doing higher dps than a proper built 2hf fighter. With second wind the survivalbility gap also got smaller.

[Zites]

When the new imbue dice system was rolled out, a few classes, pure fighter in particular, got hosed. As one of the handful of players who main a pure fighter, I lost 16d6 damage per swing. All sentient weapon procs were converted to imbue dice. Don't have an imbue? Well, too bad. Big middle finger. As a 'consolation', fighters were handed a bit of self healing that, while admittedly nice, is useless in high skulls.

Some posited at the time that this loss did not amount to much, but it was a loss all the same, while many got to truly enjoy a new system. I think that true compensation, something that could make kensai unique and interesting, is well within reach.

I suggest giving Kensei the ability to bypass DR with their signature weapon. A sorcerer can burn a fire elemental with his fireball and scorching ray, why can a kensai not slash skeletons apart with his blades?

If nothing more, as part of the capstone, let Kensai gain mettaline as well as aligned, blunt, piercing, and slashing to weapons they wield. Archers already gain blunt/piercing/slashing on their arrows as they so choose. Why not fighters?

If the devs feel it would be better spread out, then perhaps Core 12 could pick up Physical Types (Blunt/Piercing/Slashing), Core 18 could pick up Metalline, and Core 20 could pick up Aligned.

Having now spent some time playing caster, it is a bewildering world of difference. A little bit of set up, and I can use one element to destroy literally everything, weather it is logical or not. Why can the kensei, the true master of a given type of weapon, not do the same?

You know after reading this a 2nd time I have to say I Really like it.

Kensei enhancements
One Cut: Activate: Fighter Level 18
Your currently equipped primary weapon gains +1 Critical Damage Multiplier for 15 secs.(Cooldown: 1 minute) Passive: +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. +1 use of Power Surge per Rest.
+Kensei Mettaline: Passive: Fighter Level 18
DR Adamantine, Alchemical Silver, Byeshk, Cold Iron or Mithral
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Fighter Level 18, Power Surge,


Alacrity: Fighter Level 20
+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats
+2 uses of Power Surge per Rest.
+ Kensei True Master: Passive: Fighter Level 20
Aligned: DR Chaotic, Good, Evil, Lawful /Blunt/Piercing/Slashing Requires: Stalwart Mettaline or Vanguard Mettaline
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 40 Requires: Fighter Level 20, One Cut



Stalwart Defender enhancements
Defensive Footwork: Fighter Level 18
Passive: +15% Exceptional bonus to Armor Class , +50% Threat, and +25 PRR
+Stalwart Mettaline: Passive: Fighter Level 18
DR Adamantine, Alchemical Silver, Byeshk, Cold Iron or Mithral
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Fighter Level 18, Stand Fast,


Last Stand: Fighter Level 20
Passive: You gain +2 Strength +6 Constitution +10 Physical and Magical Resist Ratings and +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats. Shield Action Boost: You gain +100% Maximum hit points, +50 Physical and Magical Resistance Rating, and On Attacked: You are healed for 1d10 positive energy healing. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless.
+Stalwart True Master: Passive: Fighter Level 20
Aligned: DR Chaotic, Good, Evil, Lawful /Blunt/Piercing/Slashing Requires: Kensei Mettaline or Vanguard Mettaline
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 40 Requires: Fighter Level 20, Defensive Footwork



Vanguard enhancements
Vicious Shield II: Fighter Level 18
Shield gains +1 critical threat range, +1 critical multiplier, +1(W), and additional +5% (total 15%) Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.
+Vanguard Mettaline: Passive: Fighter Level 18
DR Adamantine, Alchemical Silver, Byeshk, Cold Iron or Mithral
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Fighter/Paladin level 18, Shield Combat II


Shield Champion: Fighter Level 20
While shield is equipped: +2 attack, +2 damage, +5% doublestrike, +1(W) to your shield, an additional +5% (total 20%) Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed, and shield bash stuns 10% of the time DC (10 + 1/2 Character lvl + strength modifier + stun bonus)
+Vanguard True Master: Passive: Fighter Level 20
Aligned: DR Chaotic, Good, Evil, Lawful /Blunt/Piercing/Slashing Requires: Kensei Mettaline or Stalwart Mettaline
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 40 Requires: Fighter/Paladin level 20, Vicious Shield II\

Tier One

Heavy Armor Fighter:
Z-

[Deslen]

You know after reading this a 2nd time I have to say I Really like it.

Kensei enhancements
One Cut: Activate: Fighter Level 18
Your currently equipped primary weapon gains +1 Critical Damage Multiplier for 15 secs.(Cooldown: 1 minute) Passive: +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. +1 use of Power Surge per Rest.
+Kensai Mettaline: Passive: Fighter Level 18
DR Adamantine, Alchemical Silver, Byeshk, Cold Iron, Mithral
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Fighter Level 18, Power Surge,


Alacrity: Fighter Level 20
+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats
+2 uses of Power Surge per Rest.
+ Kensai True Master: Passive: Fighter Level 20
Aligned/Blunt/Piercing/Slashing Requires: Stalwart Mettaline
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 40 Requires: Fighter Level 20, One Cut




Stalwart Defender enhancements
Defensive Footwork: Fighter Level 18
Passive: +15% Exceptional bonus to Armor Class , +50% Threat, and +25 PRR
+Stalwart Mettaline: Passive: Fighter Level 18
DR Adamantine, Alchemical Silver, Byeshk, Cold, Iron Mithral
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Fighter Level 18, Stand Fast,


Last Stand: Fighter Level 20
Passive: You gain +2 Strength +6 Constitution +10 Physical and Magical Resist Ratings and +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats. Shield Action Boost: You gain +100% Maximum hit points, +50 Physical and Magical Resistance Rating, and On Attacked: You are healed for 1d10 positive energy healing. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless.
+Stalwart True Master: Passive: Fighter Level 20
Aligned/Blunt/Piercing/Slashing Requires: Kensai Mettaline
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 40 Requires: Fighter Level 20, Defensive Footwork

Heavy Armor Fighter:
Z-

I'm glad you agree! Obviously there are various ways it can be implemented.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

After thinking about this some more I changed my mind about DR breaking imbues for Kensei.

1) I hard disagree that metal and alignment DR bypass is a real issue, or at least a Fighter exclusive one.

2) Part of my aggravation with no blunt DR bypass for Kensei is that the only real solution that exists in-game is a full respec of enhancements and possibly feats but I realized this is actually not a Fighter exclusive issue either. Improved Critical feats exist on a per weapon type basis, so with most classes wanting to spec for Slashing or Piercing, everyone swapping to blunt weapons without either a feat change or spending two feats on the same effect will be losing some power. Kensei might arguably lose more/the most but the core issue is universal and therefore I don't see granting this benefit to only Kensei as fair.

3) I didn't know about the Feydark 3 AP for effective Everbright. This is a universal solution for a universal problem which makes it un-justified to only give Kensei easy access to this benefit.

OP, I dont think Kensei really needs compensation for the lack of imbues. If those filigree were major features of your pure fighter build there was something odd with it.
You can have better gains by just using the basic made for fighter/barb ones from saltmarsh for example.

However im in favor of diversity and choice I understand the sense of loss even if the choice was not being optimal.

Adding something there because of that would be boosting an already hard hitting spec .

A kensei fighter is no weak build, actually one of the hot melees builds right now have been a shifter 18fighter/1warlock/1fvs.

I cant see a 2hf barb doing higher dps than a proper built 2hf fighter. With second wind the survivalbility gap also got smaller.

I think the Fighter meta only exists because VKF, 1 FvS DW, 1 Monk +3 Str and +1 19-20 multi, and 1 Lock AW all exist and benefit Fighter much more than Barb. Fighter loses essentially nothing while Barb has to make some tradeoffs, and Barb can't opt to leverage Monk at all. I think 18/1/1 Ftr/Mnk might be the highest DPS on paper, although there would be a lot of math to be done to confirm that.

If you look only at what is in the classes I think it is extremely competitive. There is also more direct Barb support in the rest of the game that isn't other classes/enhancement trees.

[DaviMOC]

If you look only at what is in the classes I think it is extremely competitive. There is also more direct Barb support in the rest of the game that isn't other classes/enhancement trees.

In general Barb is a better class to play. Oddly enough it ends up being more versatile during the gameplay.

Fighters got alot of Passive benefits that are usually overlooked but easly make it a hard hitting machine that is also very flexible when building. The only downside multiclassing it is its health bonus that is locked behind lvl 8 + 4 feats.
There is so much to fighters that trying to insert imbues on it would actually make it weaker/worse as it would draw to it precious resources.

If theres something Kensei needs is actually more meaningful active gameplay, they are passive kings , no need to support another passive system that dont even fit on its theme.

[Xgya]

One of the key features of the original Kensei was their ability to customize their weapons as they wished (but not on the fly, like Arcane Archers)

Getting your pick of many useful weapon abilities, like Metalline, Aligned, Blunt/Slash/Pierce, Everbright... all of these WOULD make for interesting picks. Rogue Mechanics get damage to crossbows and extra sneak dies as they go up their enhancement trees. Kensei could get the extra damage to their chosen weapon and one of the above properties just fine, just not as an imbue they could adjust on the fly.