Turn Undead Guide: 2023

[karatemack]

Turn Undead Guide: 2023- Intro

I figured it was about time I got around to posting an updated guide to the signature class ability for Clerics: Turn Undead. Some people don't think Turn Undead is at all useful, some think it's only good in heroics, some think it's only good for the healing aura or Domain Turn Undead abilities, while some of us are able to make good use of it throughout most of the game. The goals of this guide are: 1) to provide players who are new to the Turn Undead experience with a better understanding of how to make the ability useful, 2) show an example build that can contribute in R10 quests which makes good use of Turn Undead at endgame, and 3) in the context of the first two provide the dev team with some feedback/suggestions on improving Turn Undead moving forward.

Things that are NOT going to be covered in this guide: Domain Turn Undead abilities, Radiant Servant Turn Undead abilities. These abilities each have their own unique utility- and can be situationally effective for certain builds. This guide is focused on cowering/destroying undead creatures only.


Turn Undead Guide: 2023- How the Ability Works

There are two separate "checks" involved in a Turn Undead attempt. These are the Turning Check and Turning Damage.

The Turning Check determines the Maximum Hit Dice a creature can have and still be affected by your Turn Undead attempt. The Turning Check is calculated as 1d20 + Effective Cleric Level + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus. The Turn Level Bonus is a value from -4 to +4 based on the result of a roll of 1d20 + Charisma Modifier (which is confusingly referred to as a "Turning Check Result". This only determines the -4 to +4 bonus which adds to the Turning Check). I will provide a chart below which shows the ways you can increase your MaxHD Bonus and Total HD Bonus. Here is a chart which shows you how to determine your Turn Level Bonus:

Turning Check Result	Highest Hit Dice Turned
Up to 0	Turning Value -4
1 - 3	Turning Value -3
4 - 6	Turning Value -2
7 - 9	Turning Value -1
10 - 12	Turning Value +0
13 - 15	Turning Value +1
16 - 18	Turning Value +2
19 - 21	Turning Value +3
22+	Turning Value +4

Your Turning Damage determines the total number of hit dice you are able to affect with your Turn Undead attempt (assuming Turning Check was successful). Turning Damage is cacluated as 2d6 + Effective Cleric Level + Total HD Bonus + Charisma Modifier (note that Paladins get -3 to Effective Level). Below is a chart which shows the ways you can increase your MaxHD Bonus and Total HD Bonus:

Bonus Type	Effective LevelBonus	MaxHD Bonus	Total HD Bonus
Hallowed	-	+14	-
Sacred	+14	-	-
Silver Flame	-	-	+6
Eternal Faith	+2	+2	+4
Insightful Faith	+2	+2	+4
TOD RS Set	+3	-	-
Improved Turning (Enhancement)	+3	-	+6
Improved Turning (Feat)	+1	-	-
*Bane of Undeath	-	+3	+3
Past Life: Cleric	+6	-	-
Seek Eternal Rest	+4	-	-
Aureon's Instruction	+2	+4	+4
Bane of the Restless	+6	+6	+6
Blessed Water	+3	+3	+3
Death Domain	+2	-	+2

*Requires you take the Improved Turning (Feat) and have spent all 3 ranks in Bane of Undeath.

Note- this chart does NOT include filigree bonuses. See my build example for an example setup that gives a +16 bonus to Effective Level Bonus, +6 to MaxHD Bonus, and +6 to Total HD Bonus. Charisma lands at 78 when wearing the swap gear for a 34 Charisma Modifier.

[karatemack]

Here is the DC Caster build I'm using for the example. Your insta-kill and CC DCs get into the 130s when boosting in Reaper. You have plenty of healing abilities and a decent spell pool that should last given the meta reductions. I was able to duo all of Isle of Dread on R10 on this build with a melee DPS. First is the main build and then the gear swaps are beneath:


Character name: DC Caster Cleric
Classes: 20 Cleric, 10 Epic, 2 Legendary
Race: Aasimar · · · · · · ·Alignment: Lawful Good


· · ·Start Tome Final · · ·Incorp:· · 10% · · ·Displacement:· ·25%
Str:· · ·8· · 8 · ·31 · · ·HP:· · · ·1835 · · ·AC:· ·148
Dex:· · ·8· · 8 · ·34 · · ·PRR: · · · 180
Con:· · 12· · 8 · ·65 · · ·MRR: · · · 113 · · ·+Healing Amp:· ·171
Int:· · ·8· · 8 · ·32 · · ·Dodge: · ·5/28 · · ·-Healing Amp:· · 35
Wis:· · 20· · 8 · 111 · · ·Fort:· · ·230% · · ·Repair Amp:· · · ·0
Cha:· · 18· · 8 · ·75 · · ·SR:· · · · ·42 · · ·BAB: · · · · · · 20
DR:
Immunities: Level Drain, Natural Disease, Magical Disease, Super-Natural Disease, Magic Missiles, Fear, Energy Drain, Falling damage, Stunning, dazing and disorientation from sound based spells,


Class and Feat Selection
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level Class · · · · · ·Feats
1 · · Cleric(1) · · · ·Standard: Quicken Spell
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Aasimar Bond: Aasimar: Protector Bond
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Follower of Faith: Follower of Aureon
2 · · Cleric(2) · · · ·Domain: Death Domain Tier I
3 · · Cleric(3) · · · ·Standard: Spell Focus: Necromancy
4 · · Cleric(4) · · · ·Wisdom: +1 Level up
5 · · Cleric(5) · · · ·Domain Feat: Death Domain Tier II
6 · · Cleric(6) · · · ·Standard: Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Deity: Aureon's Instruction
7 · · Cleric(7) · · · ·
8 · · Cleric(8) · · · ·Wisdom: +1 Level up
9 · · Cleric(9) · · · ·Standard: Spell Penetration
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Domain Feat: Death Domain Tier III
10· · Cleric(10)· · · ·
11· · Cleric(11)· · · ·
12· · Cleric(12)· · · ·Standard: Greater Spell Penetration
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Wisdom: +1 Level up
13· · Cleric(13)· · · ·
14· · Cleric(14)· · · ·Domain Feat: Death Domain Tier IV
15· · Cleric(15)· · · ·Standard: Past Life: Arcane Initiate
16· · Cleric(16)· · · ·Wisdom: +1 Level up
17· · Cleric(17)· · · ·
18· · Cleric(18)· · · ·Standard: Heighten Spell
19· · Cleric(19)· · · ·
20· · Cleric(20)· · · ·Wisdom: +1 Level up
21· · Epic(1) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Arcane Insight
22· · Epic(2) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Epic Spell Power: Positive
23· · Epic(3) · · · · ·
24· · Epic(4) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Embolden Spell
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Wisdom: +1 Level up
25· · Epic(5) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Elusive Target
26· · Epic(6) · · · · ·
27· · Epic(7) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
28· · Epic(8) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Dreamscape
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Wisdom: +1 Level up
29· · Epic(9) · · · · ·
30· · Epic(10)· · · · ·Epic Feat: Epic Spell Penetration
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Legendary: Scion of the Shadowfell
31· · Legendary(1)· · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Spell Specialty: Evocation
32· · Legendary(2)· · ·Wisdom: +1 Level up


Enhancements: 80 APs, Racial 16, Universal 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aasimar - Points spent: 16
Core1 Stronger Bonds I
Core2 Ability I: +1 Wisdom
Tier1 Improved Recovery I
Core3 Stronger Bonds II
Core4 Ability II: +1 Wisdom
Tier2 Divine Purpose: Divine Purpose: Protector
Tier2 Divine Resolve: Charisma - 3 Ranks
Tier3 Divine Charge - 3 Ranks
Tier4 Ascendant Bond: Protector
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Radiant Servant - Points spent: 41
Core1 Healing Power
Tier1 Altruism - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Bliss - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Divine Aid I
Tier1 Wand and Scroll Mastery - 1 Ranks
Tier2 Improved Turning - 3 Ranks
Tier2 Mighty Turning
Core2 Cure Moderate Wounds
Tier3 Ability I: +1 Wisdom
Core3 Positive Energy Burst
Tier3 Unyielding Sovereignty
Tier3 Divine Aid II
Tier3 Intense Healing - 3 Ranks
Core4 Improved Empower Healing
Tier4 Endless Turning - 3 Ranks
Tier4 Ability II: +1 Wisdom
Tier4 Divine Health
Tier4 Divine Aid III
Tier4 Incredible Healing - 3 Ranks
Core5 Positive Energy Shield
Tier5 Positive Energy Aura
Tier5 Cure Focus
Tier5 Divine Energy Resistance
Tier5 Radiance
Core6 Radiant Servant
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feydark Illusionist - Points spent: 27
Core1 Find Familiar: White Tressym
Tier1 Study the Arcane - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Feydark Explorer - 2 Ranks
Core2 Ability I: Wisdom
Tier2 You've Got My Back
Tier2 Bend Light
Tier2 Reality Bulwark - 3 Ranks
Core3 Greater Color Spray
Tier3 Ability I: Wisdom
Tier3 Refraction
Tier3 Spell Penetration - 3 Ranks
Core4 Ability II: Wisdom
Tier4 Ability II: Wisdom
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Divine Disciple - Points spent: 13
Core1 Emissary: Divine Emissary of Light
Tier1 Defense of the Heart - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Energy of the Disciple - 1 Ranks
Tier2 Efficient Metamagic I: Efficient Quicken - 3 Ranks
Tier3 Wisdom I
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Epic Destinies: 40 APs + 25 permanent Destiny Points
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exalted Angel - Points spent: 40
Core1 Astral Touch
Tier1 Bane of Undeath - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Angelic Form
Tier1 Born by Flame - 3 Ranks
Tier2 Endless Turning - 3 Ranks
Core2 Deepening Faith
Tier2 Divine Protection
Tier2 Saving Grace - 3 Ranks
Core3 Angelic Charge
Tier3 Angelic Spell Focus: Necromancy - 3 Ranks
Tier3 Shadows Upon You
Tier3 Noble Affinity: Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Tier3 Holy Presence
Core4 Heavenly Leap: Heavenly Blessing
Tier4 Angelic Soul
Tier4 Blood and Radiance
Tier5 Enhanced Angelic Spell Focus - 3 Ranks
Tier5 Ascendance
Tier5 Blessed Water - 3 Ranks
Tier5 Heavenly Magic: Chain Cure
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Draconic Incarnation - Points spent: 21
Core1 Draconic Bloodline: Draconic Bloodline: Shadow
Tier1 Dragonhide - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Dragon Scales - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Arcane Studies - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Draconic Perception - 3 Ranks
Core2 Draconic Heritage I
Core3 Elemental Blood
Tier3 Draconic Spell Focus: Evocation - 3 Ranks
Tier3 Inevitable
Core4 Draconic Heritage II
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shadowdancer - Points spent: 12
Core1 Shadow Training
Tier1 Well of Darkness - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Stealthy - 1 Ranks
Tier2 Lithe - 3 Ranks
Tier2 Sleight of Hand - 2 Ranks
Tier3 Shadowcaster: Shadowcaster
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dread Adversary - Points spent: 4
Core1 Reaper's Offense I
Tier1 Reaper's Strike - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Reaper's Strength or Dexterity I: +1 Dexterity
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dire Thaumaturge - Points spent: 44
Core1 Reaper's Arcanum I
Tier1 Reaper's Arcana I - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Reaper's Focus I
Tier1 Reaper's Power - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Reapers's Ability I: +1 Wisdom
Tier1 Reaper's Deep Magic I
Tier2 Reaper's Focus II
Tier2 Reaper's Arcana II - 3 Ranks
Core2 Reaper's Arcanum II
Tier2 Reaper's Ability II: +1 Wisdom
Tier2 Reaper's Deep Magic II
Core3 Reaper's Arcanum III: +1 Wisdom
Tier3 Reaper's Ability III: +1 Wisdom
Tier3 Reaper's Deep Magic III
Tier3 Reaper's Focus III
Tier3 Reaper's Arcana III - 3 Ranks
Tier4 Reaper's Deep Magic IV
Tier4 Reaper's Arcana IV - 3 Ranks
Tier4 Reaper's Potency - 3 Ranks
Tier4 Reaper's Efficiency - 3 Ranks
Core4 Reaper's Arcanum IV
Core5 Reaper's Arcanum V
Tier5 Reaper's Deep Magic V
Tier5 Reaper's Ability V: +1 Wisdom
Tier5 Reaper's Charge
Tier5 Reaper's Focus V
Tier5 Reaper's Arcana V - 3 Ranks
Core6 Reaper's Arcanum VI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Grim Barricade - Points spent: 58
Core1 Reaper's Defense I
Tier1 Reaper's Bulwark/Shroud I: PRR - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Reaper's Reflex/Fortitude/Will I: Reflex Save - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Reaper's Luck - 3 Ranks
Tier1 Reaper's Constitution I
Tier1 Reaper's Evasion I - 3 Ranks
Tier2 Reaper's Reflex/Fortitude/Will II: Reflex Save - 3 Ranks
Tier2 Reaper's Constitution II
Tier2 Reaper's Evasion II - 3 Ranks
Core2 Reaper's Defense II
Tier2 Reaper's Bullwark/Shroud II: PRR - 3 Ranks
Core3 Reaper's Defense III
Tier3 Reaper's Bulwark/Shroud III: PRR - 3 Ranks
Tier3 Reaper's Reflex/Fortitude/Will III: Reflex Save - 3 Ranks
Tier3 Reaper's Constitution III
Tier3 Reaper's Evasion III - 3 Ranks
Tier4 Reaper's Bulwark/Shroud IV: PRR - 3 Ranks
Tier4 Reaper's Heightened Evasion I
Tier4 Reaper's Steadfastness - 3 Ranks
Core4 Reaper's Defense IV
Tier4 Reaper's Resistance - 3 Ranks
Core5 Reaper's Defense V
Tier5 Reaper's Bulwark/Shroud V: PRR - 3 Ranks
Tier5 Reaper's Reflex/Fortitude/Will V: Reflex Save - 3 Ranks
Tier5 Reaper's Charge
Tier5 Reaper's Constitution V
Tier5 Reaper's Heightened Evasion II
Core6 Reaper's Defense VI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Spell Like / Special Abilities
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Healing Hands · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
Necrotic Ray· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
Destruction · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
Magic Missile · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
Cure Moderate Wounds· · · · · · · · · · · ·
Unyielding Sovereignty· · · · · · · · · · ·
Divine Energy Resistance· · · · · · · · · ·
Greater Color Spray · · · · · · · · · · · ·
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass· · · · · · · · ·
Chain Cure· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Equipped Gear Set: Standard
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armor · · · · Dinosaur Plate Armor· ·Drops in: The Isle of Dread, any chest
· · · · · · · IoD: Armor: Scale Slot: Goldscale
· · · · · · · IoD: Armor: Fang Slot: Voidfang
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Claw Slot: Claw: Physical Resistance Rating
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Horn Slot: Horn: +12 Resistance
· · · · · · · IoD: Set Bonus Slot: Echoes of the Walking Ancestors
· · · · · · · Green: +2 Sapphire of Armored Agility
· · · · · · · Blue: Sapphire of Greater Heroism
Belt· · · · · Legendary Black Satin Waist · Drops in: Quest: The Magma Must Flow
· · · · · · · Nearly Finished (Qual IWC): +3 Quality Wisdom
· · · · · · · Green: Empty augment slot
Boots · · · · Legendary Sunken Slippers · Drops in: Quest: Members Only
· · · · · · · Nearly Finished (Qual IWC): +3 Quality Charisma
· · · · · · · Yellow: Topaz of Feather Fall
Bracers · · · Legendary Kopru Bracers · Drops in: Quest: Bullywugs and Booby Traps
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Scale Slot: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Green: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Colorless: +2 Festive Constitution
· · · · · · · The Legendary Dread Isle's Curse
Cloak · · · · Legendary Walking Ancestor's Shroud · Drops in: Quest: Whispers of Return, end chest
· · · · · · · Green: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Colorless: +2 Festive Charisma
· · · · · · · Echoes of the Walking Ancestors
Gloves· · · · Alaric's Grim Gauntlets · Drops in: Raid: Skeletons in the Closet, Free Yarrow optional chest
· · · · · · · Blue: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Green: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · The Legendary Dread Isle's Curse
Goggles · · · Attunement's Gaze · Drops in: Raid: Project Nemesis
· · · · · · · Blue: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Green: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Legendary Esoteric Initiate
Helmet· · · · Legendary Walking Ancestor's Helmet · Drops in: Quest: Plundering Pirates' Point, end chest
· · · · · · · Green: Legendary Wraithborn Emerald
· · · · · · · Colorless: +2 Festive Wisdom
· · · · · · · Reaper: Reaper Ability Boost
· · · · · · · Echoes of the Walking Ancestors
Necklace· · · Cracked Core· ·Drops in: Raid: Project Nemesis
· · · · · · · Green: +2 Topaz of Spell Focus: Necromancy
· · · · · · · Yellow: Diamond of the Magi
Quiver· · · · Quiver of Alacrity· ·Drops in: Raid: Ascension Chamber
Ring1 · · · · Dinosaur Bone Ring· ·Drops in: The Isle of Dread, any legendary chest; or Dread saga legendary end reward
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Artifact Scale Slot: Scale: +15 Constitution
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Fang Slot: Fang: Healing Amplification +56
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Claw Slot: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Horn Slot: Horn: Sacred DCs
· · · · · · · Blue: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Green: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Yellow: Draconic Soul Gem
· · · · · · · The Legendary Dread Isle's Curse
· · · · · · · Filigree 1: Celerity/Vigilance: +2 Wisdom(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 2: Lunar Magic: Wisdom(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 3: Zarigan's Arcane Enlightenment: Wisdom
· · · · · · · Filigree 4: Frozen Wanderer: Wisdom(Rare Version)
Ring2 · · · · Legendary Signet Ring of the Earth· ·Drops in: Quest: Spiders and Flies, end chest
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Claw Slot: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Green: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Colorless: Globe of True Imperial Blood
· · · · · · · The Legendary Dread Isle's Curse
Trinket · · · Trinket of Freewill · Drops in: Raid: Killing Time
· · · · · · · Green: +2 Topaz of Spell Focus: Evocation
· · · · · · · Blue: +6 Sapphire of Riposte
Weapon1 · · · Attuned Bone Dagger · Drops in: Skeletons in the Closet, Raid Warded Chest
· · · · · · · IoD: Weapon: Scale Slot: Shadowscale
· · · · · · · IoD: Weapon: Fang Slot: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · IoD: Weapon: Claw Slot: Meltclaw: Wisdom
· · · · · · · IoD: Weapon: Horn Slot: Brighthorn
· · · · · · · Orange: Meridian Fragment
· · · · · · · Purple: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · The Legendary Dread Isle's Curse
· · · · · · · Sentient Weapon Personality: Sentient Jewel of Blackrazor
· · · · · · · Filigree 1: Celerity/Vigilance: +2 Wisdom(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 2: Lunar Magic: Wisdom(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 3: Lunar Magic: Charisma(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 4: Lunar Magic: Spell Resistance(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 5: Lunar Magic: Universal Spellpower(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 6: Zarigan's Arcane Enlightenment: Wisdom(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 7: Zarigan's Arcane Enlightenment: Spell Points(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 8: Zarigan's Arcane Enlightenment: 5% Force Absorption(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 9: Frozen Wanderer: Wisdom(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 10: The Serpent: Wisdom(Rare Version)
Weapon2 · · · Legendary Alchemical Orb· ·Drops in: U47 Raid: Legendary Master Artificer
· · · · · · · Legendary Alchemical T0: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Red: Empty augment slot
Trinket2· · · Restricted by another item in this gear set
Trinket3· · · Restricted by another item in this gear set


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gear Swaps


Equipped Gear Set: Turning Gear
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belt· · · · · Tokala's Belt · Drops in: Quest: Genesis Point
· · · · · · · Greater Ardor (CL: 1, 3/3)
· · · · · · · Wizardry +6
· · · · · · · Incredible Potential
Ring1 · · · · Dinosaur Bone Ring· ·Drops in: The Isle of Dread, any legendary chest; or Dread saga legendary end reward
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Artifact Scale Slot: Scale: +15 Constitution
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Fang Slot: Fang: Healing Amplification +56
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Claw Slot: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · IoD: Accessory: Horn Slot: Horn: Sacred DCs
· · · · · · · Blue: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Green: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Yellow: Draconic Soul Gem
· · · · · · · The Legendary Dread Isle's Curse
· · · · · · · Filigree 1: Embraced by Light: Turn Undead(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 2: Final Burial: Turn Undead Hit Dice(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 3: Final Burial: Turn Undead Max Dice(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 4: Angelic Wings: Turn Undead Hit Dice(Rare Version)
Ring2 · · · · Radiant Ring· ·Drops in: Quest: Tower of Despair, end chest
· · · · · · · Wisdom +6
· · · · · · · Exceptional Charisma +1
· · · · · · · Incredible Potential
Trinket · · · Legendary Gem of Many Facets· ·Drops in: Raid: The Chronoscope, Base Item plus crafting in the 12
· · · · · · · Legendary Facets Set Bonus 1: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Legendary Facets Set Bonus 2: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Cannith Trinket Prefix: Silver Flame
· · · · · · · Cannith Trinket Suffix: Eternal Faith
· · · · · · · Cannith Trinket Extra: Empty augment slot
· · · · · · · Yellow: Empty augment slot
Weapon1 · · · Drowned Priest's Torch· ·Drops in: Quest: A Legend Revisited
· · · · · · · Yellow: Underwater Action
· · · · · · · Red: Positive Spell Power
· · · · · · · Sentient Weapon Personality: Sentient Jewel of Blackrazor
· · · · · · · Filigree 1: Embraced by Light: Turn Undead(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 2: Final Burial: Turn Undead Hit Dice(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 3: Final Burial: Turn Undead Max Dice(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 4: Final Burial: Charisma(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 5: Angelic Wings: Turn Undead(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 6: Angelic Wings: Turn Undead Hit Dice(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 7: To Hell and Back/Embraced by Light: +2 Charisma(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 8: Sanctified Fervor: Charisma(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 9: Reverberation: Charisma(Rare Version)
· · · · · · · Filigree 10: Bend Fate: Charisma(Rare Version)
Trinket2· · · Restricted by another item in this gear set
Trinket3· · · Restricted by another item in this gear set


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[karatemack]

Using the build above for reference, we were able to get the following bonuses:

Bonus Type	Effective Level Bonus	MaxHD Bonus	Total HD Bonus
Hallowed	-	+14	-
Sacred	+14	-	-
Silver Flame	-	-	+6
Eternal Faith	+2	+2	+4
Insightful Faith	+2	+2	+4
TOD RS Set	+3	-	-
Improved Turning (Enhancement)	+3	-	+6
Past Life: Cleric	+6	-	-
Seek Eternal Rest	+4	-	-
Aureon's Instruction	+2	+4	+4
Filigree Bonuses	+16	+6	+6
Blessed Water	+3	+3	+3
Death Domain	+2	-	+2
Total Bonuses	+57	+31	+35

So, now that we know our bonuses and our Charisma Modifier (34 - see first post) we can work through the formulas:

Turning Check = 1d20 + 20 + 57 + 4 + 31 (1d20 + 112) (Range 113 - 132)

Turning Damage = 2d6 + 20 + 57 + 35 + 34 (2d6 + 146) (Range 148 - 158)

Picture to prove the math:



What this all means is this: I can turn a creature with up to 132 hit dice, and I can turn a total of 158 hit dice worth of creatures. When you use Turn Undead, first it will check to see if mobs are affected, and then it will cower/destroy the mob starting with the mobs with the least amount of hit dice in the area of effect and moving up to the creatures with the most hit dice. If there are 6 (six) mobs who each have 30 hit dice... my Turning Check would succeed as (113 to 132) > 30 and my Turning Damage would be able to affect up to 5 (five) of them (158 / 30 = 5 rounded down). With Mighty Turning you could outright destroy all of them. Or... you could destroy 2 of them and cower one without Mighty Turning.

[karatemack]

Here are questions about Turn Undead I would like answered:

1. Are the Turning Check and Turning Damage formulas I listed above correct? (Numbers from the combat log on live are 21 lower than my calculcations for Turning Check and 9 lower for Turning Damage.)
   
   1. Do some of the bonuses I have listed no longer stack? (or never stacked?)
   2. It seems as though only Effective Cleric Level bonuses are currently adding to the Turn Check. Is that correct? (It's off by 21, so maybe at least 20 of this can be accounted for if the actual Cleric levels aren't adding in?)
   
   
2. Is there an easy way for us to figure out how many HD mobs have? Is it equal to their CR? (some mobs like mages/archers seem to have far less HD than melee skellies)

Here are improvements to Turn Undead I would like to see implemented:

1. Increase the duration of the "cower" affect in R10. Currently you can only successfully cower mobs for 30s in R1 and 5s in R10. Compare this to other CC spells which can CC mobs for up to 12s in R10. Turn Undead is a signature class ability for the Cleric class and should be better than an arcane spell at dealing with the undead.
2. There are no epic/legendary feats which allow you to improve Turn Undead
3. The +1 to effective level for Turn Undead from Improved Turning (Feat) is not worth the feat. Could this be increased to +4? Alternatively, could this be combined with Extra Turning to provide extra uses?
4. There is no Emerald of Greater Turning (+3 uses of Turn Undead per rest).
5. Would it be possible to include Turn Undead immunity stripping in the RS tree? (IE: dispel magic, a new Turn Undead ability that uses 1 turn per use and is single target to strip immunity)

Here are some credits from sources I've used for Turn Undead over the years:

• Turn Undead Guide: 2017
  
• guardianx2009's "Cleric's Guide to the Turn Undead"
• DDO Wiki- Turn Undead
• Official 3.5e Turn Undead
• DnD4 Wiki- Turn Undead
• 5th ed Turn Undead

[Firebreed]

There are two separate "checks" involved in a Turn Undead attempt. These are the Turning Check and Turning Damage.

The Turning Check determines the Maximum Hit Dice a creature can have and still be affected by your Turn Undead attempt. The Turning Check is calculated as 1d20 + Charisma Modifier + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus. The Turn Level Bonus is a value from -4 to +4 based on the result of a roll of 1d20 + Charisma Modifier (which is confusingly referred to as a "Turning Check Result". This only determines the -4 to +4 bonus which adds to the Turning Check). I will provide a chart below which shows the ways you can increase your MaxHD Bonus and Total HD Bonus.

First of all, great post!

1) According to the wiki, the Turning Check is calculated very differently though. Which is correct?

You say: 1d20 + Charisma Modifier + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus
Wiki says: Effective Cleric Level + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus

Your version seems a bit weird, because Turn Level Bonus stems from the (1d20 + CHA modifier) clauses, but they also appear to be included as is. Also, Effective Cleric Level doesn't appear to be part of the calculation in your version, meaning it would only be affecting Turning Damage.

2) Additionally, you may wanna include Blessed Water (Exalted Angel T5) in your comprehensive list of Bonuses at the end of the first post, as "+3 to all Turn Undead attributes" isn't as clear as it sounds; It definitely affects MaxHD Bonus & Total HD Bonus, but does it also affect Effective Cleric Level, thus effectively increasing both the Turning Check and Turning Damage by +6? (if the wiki version of the Turning Check formula is correct)

3) I think the +3 you're missing in your toon's Turning Damage calculation is from the aforementioned Blessed Water, which would also indicate that Blessed Water does NOT in fact increase Effective Cleric Level (since your missing +3 would instead be a +6), but rather only increases TotalHD and MaxHD.

[gravisrs]

Turn undead system is broken. You can easily turn hordes on heroics, 2-3 on epics, almost zero on legendary.

So for endgame just build some decent DPS and you will be able to "dissapear" undeads faster than that useless-in-every-other-case cleric
It's much easier to invest in necro DC and just cast undeath to death and still perform better than this.

[karatemack]

First of all, great post!

1) According to the wiki, the Turning Check is calculated very differently though. Which is correct?

You say: 1d20 + Charisma Modifier + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus
Wiki says: Effective Cleric Level + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus

Your version seems a bit weird, because Turn Level Bonus stems from the (1d20 + CHA modifier) clauses, but they also appear to be included as is. Also, Effective Cleric Level doesn't appear to be part of the calculation in your version, meaning it would only be affecting Turning Damage.

Updated the OP (good catch). In my experience on live, it doesn't seem like the Effective Level Bonus is applying to the Turn Check. I excluded it as it was the only way I could get the math to make sense, but since the math is off by 20 maybe it's just the actual 20 levels of Cleric that isn't adding properly. I'm going to update the OP to include this as a question at the end. As when I add all the bonuses as mentioned, it doesn't seem like they're adding up correctly based on the live screen shot.

2) Additionally, you may wanna include Blessed Water (Exalted Angel T5) in your comprehensive list of Bonuses at the end of the first post, as "+3 to all Turn Undead attributes" isn't as clear as it sounds; It definitely affects MaxHD Bonus & Total HD Bonus, but does it also affect Effective Cleric Level, thus effectively increasing both the Turning Check and Turning Damage by +6? (if the wiki version of the Turning Check formula is correct)

3) I think the +3 you're missing in your toon's Turning Damage calculation is from the aforementioned Blessed Water, which would also indicate that Blessed Water does NOT in fact increase Effective Cleric Level (since your missing +3 would instead be a +6), but rather only increases TotalHD and MaxHD.

There's the 3 I was missing! Ty for that. Makes sense and I'm updating the OP to reflect.

Turn undead system is broken. You can easily turn hordes on heroics, 2-3 on epics, almost zero on legendary.

So for endgame just build some decent DPS and you will be able to "dissapear" undeads faster than that useless-in-every-other-case cleric
It's much easier to invest in necro DC and just cast undeath to death and still perform better than this.

In R10 quests? You can still turn lots of mobs. You aren't entirely wrong though... Undeath to Death and Implosion are also great options and not off the table on the build I posted which can do both. For Raids... you'll definitely question your life choices for building around a signature class ability that can only cower an undead mob for 5s (2 of which are gone by the time the animation for Turn Undead finishes).

[LightBear]

You say: 1d20 + Charisma Modifier + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus
Wiki says: Effective Cleric Level + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus

So investing into cha does nothing then?
All of a sudden it makes sense that my paladin lives sucked at turning undead.

I noticed that I can chain my turn attempts as long as I am able to destroy at least a few undeads.

I wonder if Quicken helps the "casting" animation of turn undead as well?

Great post, will look into gear options for hot swapping.

Btw, if you take an elemental domain you can destroy elementals this way. So that opens up more options in endgame.

[Firebreed]

So investing into cha does nothing then?
All of a sudden it makes sense that my paladin lives sucked at turning undead.

I noticed that I can chain my turn attempts as long as I am able to destroy at least a few undeads.

I wonder if Quicken helps the "casting" animation of turn undead as well?

Great post, will look into gear options for hot swapping.

Btw, if you take an elemental domain you can destroy elementals this way. So that opens up more options in endgame.

If the wiki is correct, then CHA only realistically affects Turning Damage, not Turning Check (as you're almost always guaranteed to get the +4 result in the "Turn Level Bonus/Turning Check Result" category if youre specced for Turning).

[magaiti]

CHA affects number of Turn Undead uses.

[shores11]

Turn undead system is broken. You can easily turn hordes on heroics, 2-3 on epics, almost zero on legendary.

So for endgame just build some decent DPS and you will be able to "dissapear" undeads faster than that useless-in-every-other-case cleric
It's much easier to invest in necro DC and just cast undeath to death and still perform better than this.

Any truth or untruth to your post is irrelevant as the point the OP is making is just for turning or destroying undead per the cleric or paladin ability. Stay on point, you can make your post in some other thread about how you do it.

[Enoach]

One of the changes I've posted about in the past is to increase the table past the 22+ on the Turn Check

something like
Turn Check Mod = ROUNDDOWN([(1d20 + CHA Mod) - 10] / 3) + TV

The reason I make this suggestion is because in 3.5 where this table comes from players having the ability to roll much higher than 22 on this table or who's minimum roll would be 22 was near impossible shy of demi-godhood

This would allow CHA advancement to also help improve turning and would be gated by character level with the Epic/Legendary benefitting without having to add more bonuses via equipment.


I will say that the change that prevented undead that were 'death warded' from even cowering was extremely welcomed

[hit_fido]

Fantastic work! I always thought stuff like Sacred, Silver Flame, and Eternal Faith didn't stack... Here's some random notes:

- You can Cannith craft Sacred as a prefix, but it's the non-scaling old style prefix that just adds +2.

- You can Cannith craft Eternal Faith as a suffix and last time I checked you could put it on a ML:1 item.

- You can Cannith craft Silver Flame as a prefix. So if these really stack, you could theoretically have a "Silver Flame/Eternal Faith" ML:1 trinket with a +2/+2/+10 bonus to Level/MaxHD/TotalHD, and another ML:1 item with Sacred for a grand total +4/+2/+10.

- In heroics, you can get a Celestial Beacon at ml:9 with +5 Hallowed and a Chainmail Coif at ml:11 for +6 Hallowed/+6 Sacred. Those appear to be the only two items in heroics with "new scaling" Sacred/Hallowed effects that go over +2. Dawn's Herald Charm at ml:10 gives Insightful Faith. So by level 11 in heroics, you can get up to +10/+10/+14 If you combine Chainmail Coif, Dawn's Herald Charm, and your own crafted trinket to have all of Silver Flame, Eternal Faith, Insightful Faith, and +6/+6 Sacred/Hallowed. Again, assuming those really all stack.

I did a test:

You roll for turning damage. You roll a 6 : 35 total hit dice of enemies can be turned.

I have 12 cleric levels and three cleric past lives so my effective level should be 18, right?. My Charisma bonus is +8. So the formula says 2d6 (6) + Effective Cleric Level (18) + Total HD Bonus (X) + Charisma Modifier (+8) = 35; therefore X must be 3 but I can't figure out where I'm getting a +3 bonus to Total HD from, the only turning related item I have is +5 Hallowed and none of my enhancements are related to Total HD bonus.

[karatemack]

I did a test:

I have 12 cleric levels and three cleric past lives so my effective level should be 18, right?. My Charisma bonus is +8. So the formula says 2d6 (6) + Effective Cleric Level (18) + Total HD Bonus (X) + Charisma Modifier (+8) = 35; therefore X must be 3 but I can't figure out where I'm getting a +3 bonus to Total HD from, the only turning related item I have is +5 Hallowed and none of my enhancements are related to Total HD bonus.

Let's assume you took advantage of every buff you can get at level 12. Here is what it would look like:

Bonus Type	Effective Level Bonus	MaxHD Bonus	Total HD Bonus
Hallowed	-	+6	-
Sacred	+6	-	-
Silver Flame	-	-	+6
Eternal Faith	+2	+2	+4
Insightful Faith	+2	+2	+4
Improved Turning (Enhancement)	+3	-	+6
Past Life: Cleric	+6	-	-
Seek Eternal Rest	+4	-	-
Aureon's Instruction	+2	+4	+4
Death Domain	+2	-	+2
Total Bonuses	+27	+14	+26

Assuming you have a Charisma Modifier of 8 (total Charisma is 26), would put you on the scale of -1 to +4 for your Turn Level Bonus. Here are the formulas:

Turning Check = 1d20 + 12 + 27 + (-1 to 4) + 14 (1d20 + 53 + (-1 to 4)) (Range 53 - 77)

Turning Damage = 2d6 + 12 + 27 + 8 + 26 (2d6 + 73) (Range 75 - 85)

In your example you don't list any bonuses. So without any bonuses it would be:

Turning Check = 1d20 + 12 + (-1 to 4) (1d20 + (11 to 16)) (Range 12 - 36)

Turning Damage = 2d6 + 12 + 8 (2d6 + 20) (Range 22 - 32)

Based on your result of 35 on a roll of a 6, your have to have some type of Turning Check bonus. Are you using any of the bonuses I listed above?

[hit_fido]

Based on your result of 35 on a roll of a 6, your have to have some type of Turning Check bonus. Are you using any of the bonuses I listed above?

On that attempt I also see:

You roll to see how effective your turn undead: cleric is. You roll a 10 : you hit foes up to 26 hit dice.

I don't have any radiant servant enhancements; I have one rank of Enhanced Turning and the only rank of Mighty Turning from Dark Apostate but neither of those claims to affect total HD. I have a Celestial Beacon equipped but Hallowed +5 should only affect the maximum HD, right? My cleric past lives should be adding +6 to my effective level making it 18 instead of 12.

But yeah, 2d6 (I rolled 6) + 18 + 8 = 32 so I can't account for the other 3 points...

By the way, you could add Death Domain to your list: "You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected."; my character however is not Death Domain and no other domains claim to affect hit dice.

[karatemack]

On that attempt I also see:



I don't have any radiant servant enhancements; I have one rank of Enhanced Turning and the only rank of Mighty Turning from Dark Apostate but neither of those claims to affect total HD. I have a Celestial Beacon equipped but Hallowed +5 should only affect the maximum HD, right? My cleric past lives should be adding +6 to my effective level making it 18 instead of 12.

But yeah, 2d6 (I rolled 6) + 18 + 8 = 32 so I can't account for the other 3 points...

By the way, you could add Death Domain to your list: "You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected."; my character however is not Death Domain and no other domains claim to affect hit dice.

The Turning Check is a d20. The Turning Damage is 2d6. Good catch with Death Domain. I’ll add that in when I get home.

[hit_fido]

By the way anyone who wants to test, Graverobber is a pretty good scenario with multiple packed groups of slow moving zombies starting very close to the entry.

A roll of 37 killed 3 Dread Zombies, a roll of 35 killed 2. On elite they're shown as CR12, so the math for total hit dice seems to work in practice, the numbers reported in the log seem legit.

[Mindos]

So this is the problem with some of the math?
https://ddocompendium.com/w/Blessed_Water

[karatemack]

So this is the problem with some of the math?
https://ddocompendium.com/w/Blessed_Water

It was when I first posted, however I have been updating the OP as anything I missed has been pointed out.

The primary points about some needed changes to the way Turn Undead functions (in the context of this thread) and the need for clarity for why the bonuses look different on live than on paper, still stand. Here's hoping a kindly dev will pop in at some point and provide some insight/commentary.

[hit_fido]

You have Exalted Angel's Bane of Undeath in your build but it's missing from your table of possible bonus - "Rank 3: If you have the Improved Turning feat, +3 to Effective Level for Turn Undead, +3 to Maximum Hit Dice for Turn Undead, and +3 Hit Die for Turn Undead."