Worst Enhancement Trees

[DaviMOC]

A lot of the trees being mentioned here are used only by that class. IMHO no tree should be boring and bland or what is the point? Sorc is definitely in a comfortable position though to need almost nothing but its preferred cores. But Savants still feel like some of the worst trees to use because they are so very dull. Should sorc trees be a priority? Absolutely not. But someday they will need to give them a once over and make them actually fun and interesting.

As you said sorcs are in a comfortable position right now. Making the trees better or fun without making it even stronger would mean moving its innate power to the tree. Are sorcs players willing to make the leap? Dont think so.

[Aelonwy]

As you said sorcs are in a comfortable position right now. Making the trees better or fun without making it even stronger would mean moving its innate power to the tree. Are sorcs players willing to make the leap? Dont think so.

Idk. I'd be willing to make that leap. But I also think they could have more flavorful choices without it necessarily being more powerful. Although I admit it would take a scalpel approach not often seen in this game. The biggest issue with the sorc trees is that they are almost copy-pastes of each other with just the element changing. Yes, some things need to be fair and even between the elements but they could each use some more unique elemental flavor that creates difficult choice. Still there are higher priorities with trees that belong to less strong classes needing serious polishing.

Examples for Elemental Flavor:
Air could have instead of the Featherfall effect (so incredibly ubiquitous on gear) something more like Autumn Winds from Season's Herald maybe minus the dodge.
Earth could have a a small chance to proc Stoneskin for Earthen Armor (a spell readily available to a sorc but this would self cast occasionally.)
Water could be a Freeze that works similar to Daze, no extra dmg, not helpless just stay put till I can get to you.
Fire... okay I'm not sure how to add flavor to fire without giving it power. Something to do with smoke? Or embers? That one will take careful consideration.

[DaviMOC]

Idk. I'd be willing to make that leap. But I also think they could have more flavorful choices without it necessarily being more powerful. Although I admit it would take a scalpel approach not often seen in this game. The biggest issue with the sorc trees is that they are almost copy-pastes of each other with just the element changing. Yes, some things need to be fair and even between the elements but they could each use some more unique elemental flavor that creates difficult choice. Still there are higher priorities with trees that belong to less strong classes needing serious polishing.

Examples for Elemental Flavor:
Air could have instead of the Featherfall effect (so incredibly ubiquitous on gear) something more like Autumn Winds from Season's Herald maybe minus the dodge.
Earth could have a a small chance to proc Stoneskin for Earthen Armor (a spell readily available to a sorc but this would self cast occasionally.)
Water could be a Freeze that works similar to Daze, no extra dmg, not helpless just stay put till I can get to you.
Fire... okay I'm not sure how to add flavor to fire without giving it power. Something to do with smoke? Or embers? That one will take careful consideration.

I agree with you and I like the ideas. Relying on element specific debuff is nice. They could just change others and leave fire savant the way it is. As it would be the only one untoched it would be unique in its own way. XD

I'm not a big sorc player but I believe In general the right thing to do would be reduce power a bit for more flavor, utility, flexibility and splash capabilities.But, again, I dont know if thats something people would accept specially when you have druids just being OP with way more utilities and flexibility and getting extra OP trees for free.

[droid327]

Idk. I'd be willing to make that leap. But I also think they could have more flavorful choices without it necessarily being more powerful. Although I admit it would take a scalpel approach not often seen in this game. The biggest issue with the sorc trees is that they are almost copy-pastes of each other with just the element changing. Yes, some things need to be fair and even between the elements but they could each use some more unique elemental flavor that creates difficult choice. Still there are higher priorities with trees that belong to less strong classes needing serious polishing.

I think that Savant, like Kensei for melee, is more about the passive bonuses than the active playstyle it provides - and that's OK if some trees do that, not every tree has to give you a 6 button rotation

I think it might be better, though, to turn Savant into a multiselector and give Sorc a third tree...I've always advocated for Mystic Theurge, which would give Sorcs a little divine flavor and some minimal functioning self-heal to put them - if not on par, at least comparable to - Wiz with PM healing. Even if its just Close Wounds SLA and maybe Cure Moderate Mass in the T5 or C5, alongside some bonuses and SLAs for Light or Force/Physical casting

[Cadveen]

Feels like Archetypes have kinda slowed the pace of modernizing the older trees, even though those updates are largely successful. What are your top 4 existing trees in need of an update?

Mine are:

1. Archmage. One of the weakest and most outdated tree designs, when it should be one of the most iconic D&D playstyles

2. Warpriest. Same as above, it just fails to give a competitive melee package, with no real signature ability

3. Ninja Spy. Just all over the place. All 3 monk trees could make the list but that one is the most pointless overall

4. Occult Slayer. The other two barb trees are really strong, but OS has a builder spender system that really doesn't offer enough value right now

Wizard update: WHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

[ZER0DIVISION]

An easy change I want out of the Savant sorc trees is to make their T5 clicky ability scale with charisma instead of constitution and incorporate school DC bonuses. The earthgrab, icy prison, and heat death abilities are super neat... they just don't scale in any meaningful way.

SSG doesn't have to listen to community feedback for every little change we want, but I feel like there's a lot of really simple changes that would bring a lot of value to playstyles or trees that are either underperforming or just feel bland.

[yfernbottom]

An easy change I want out of the Savant sorc trees is to make their T5 clicky ability scale with charisma instead of constitution and incorporate school DC bonuses. The earthgrab, icy prison, and heat death abilities are super neat... they just don't scale in any meaningful way.

SSG doesn't have to listen to community feedback for every little change we want, but I feel like there's a lot of really simple changes that would bring a lot of value to playstyles or trees that are either underperforming or just feel bland.

Yeah, the DC really does need to scale with the casting stat of the class. Did they get mixed up and assign it to the other stat that starts with C, or did they just want it to be **** near impossible for Sorcerer's to land the spell in difficulties higher than hard?

Speaking of simple changes, Energy of the Scholar in Archmage needs to cost 1 point per tier and grant 100 mana...like almost every other similar enhancement in the game.

[Bacab]

Yeah, the DC really does need to scale with the casting stat of the class. Did they get mixed up and assign it to the other stat that starts with C, or did they just want it to be **** near impossible for Sorcerer's to land the spell in difficulties higher than hard?

Speaking of simple changes, Energy of the Scholar in Archmage needs to cost 1 point per tier and grant 100 mana...like almost every other similar enhancement in the game.

Its been years since I did a Wizard life, which is odd, because I like playing Wizard. That Energy of the Scholar costs is silly high.

One thing I want to point out real quick.

Many of these enhancement trees are bad. But I just want to get into ones that are bad that aren't universal.

Archmage is especially bad because it doesn't really have a good universal tree for casting to lean into.

Like War Priest is bad...but Falconry is really strong as is VKF, so you can make due.

It seems odd that Bard has 2 caster Trees better than Wizard. I love Bard btw...but just pointing that out.

[SpartanKiller13]

Archmage (needs a rework).
Sorc Savant trees (make these a multiselector and buff them lol, then rebalance Sorc).
Radiant Servant (needs to be cheaper and better IMO, doesn't make me interested in a Cleric healbot).
Swashbuckler (needs something in later cores/higher tiers, it's only used for splashes that I see).

Specifically regarding the battle-trance here: of the four variations of battle-trances that affect weapon using builds (KtA, Deadly Instinct, No Step Missed, and DM) only one gives a to-hit bonus. That also happens to be the only one that is accessible as a t1 enhancement. I think it would be good for overall balance to standardize whether trances give to-hit or not. Insightful accuracy does exist on gear, but it is pretty limited in slots and available pieces and maxes out at +11 which is equal to 32 of a stat which I believe is very easily exceeded even for a third stat these days.

Class-based trances give Ins Accuracy, universal trances do not. Note that Divine Will also gives Ins Accuracy.

Warpriest is the one as a cleric player that bothers me the most.

There is zero pragmatic reason to use Warpriest as a main tree over Falconry. Warpriest needs a serious rework, it is not worth using as a main tree over Falconry in its current state for any melee cleric though it has some pretty good low hanging fruit in the first few tiers so a splash can be good.

I've gone T4 Warpriest on a few splash builds for the +10% DS, Divine Might, Haste Boost, and Arcane Backlash but it's pretty empty aside from that if you're not using Favored Weapon (and not much better if you are lol). I think the cores/T5 need work more than the first bit so you can use it as a main tree?

[misterski]

I've gone T4 Warpriest on a few splash builds for the +10% DS, Divine Might, Haste Boost, and Arcane Backlash but it's pretty empty aside from that if you're not using Favored Weapon (and not much better if you are lol). I think the cores/T5 need work more than the first bit so you can use it as a main tree?

Warpriest doesn't get haste boost, Warsoul does. It's one of the annoying differences between the two.

[elvesunited]

Wizard update: WHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

Prediction:

If they follow the pattern, I would predict that archmage will get an update at the same time that wizard gets an archetype.
Similar to how Tainted Scholar was improved when they added Skin of Acolyte.
It won't be a complete redesign just tweaks. Like doubling the power of the capstone, fixing arcane supremacy, putting the arcane spells on par with other spells, lowering the costs of some enhancements and putting more useful spells in the SLAs in the cores while keeping the ones people actually use like Phantasmal Killer.
Then like how Tainted Scholar Chain form got new usage after Skin so will Archmage enhancements.
( my bet would be that Palemaster would be the enhancement tree that gets replaced by the archetype )

Harper, on the other hand, is hot garbage, and the only reason I didnt include it on my OP list is because I have absolutely no idea what its trying to be, or how they could possibly make it into a more effective and complete standalone tree without completely rebuilding it with a new identity - and I dont want to lose my 12 point INT combat package, which is what I'm afraid they'd do ><

Harper is both one of the most powerful trees and the weakest.
The int combat package is a mainstay of many a int-maxing weapon builds to the point where those will be the first 12 points of enhancments they take.
My pure light armor repeater artificer even took it 31 points for the intelligence and because Renegade and Arcanotechnician didn't really apply to him.

But if you're not a int-maxing weapon user this tree isn't for you.
It's been a long time since Harper's Tier 5 was competetive with other tree's and enhancement.
And the capstone was basically a sign saying "Don't take this" even when the harper tree was new.

This one I don't see changing. Changing the lower stuff would cripple too many builds and no one uses the Harper Tier 5 stuff anymore so even if they were to improve it, almost no one would use it.

[LurkingVeteran]

Yeah, the DC really does need to scale with the casting stat of the class. Did they get mixed up and assign it to the other stat that starts with C, or did they just want it to be **** near impossible for Sorcerer's to land the spell in difficulties higher than hard?

...

This. Sorcs are fine for experienced players with enough DC and know-how to use the spells without running out of SP, but the SLAs are pretty outdated which make the trees boring and bad for players who want to spam SLAs. Sorcs mainly just need to have their SLAs fixed, which is mostly due to about half the arcane spells being ignored in the arcane spell pass, the other is wonky numbers on the T5s. They just fixed Melf's. If they fix Electric Loop and Frost Lance, as well as the DCs/numbers for the T5 SLAs like Earth Grab, it should be fine. They could definitely raise the MCL of some of the arcane spells/SLAs as well, as they are almost capped out already when you get them. Having MCL5 on the first SLAs doesn't really make sense, you cap it at L3 or even L2 with the proper gear.

It would also be good if they weren't quite so heavily penalized for other elements (-9 CL and -6 MCL?), especially Air really suffers from being penalized on both SL9 AoEs: Acid Well (Acid) and Meteor Swarm (Earth tag). When facing groups of more than 6 enemies, Air is currently even behind Water savants (who additionally can use Acid Well). Optionally one could raise the target limit on Chain (which in pen and paper is one per level).

[Aelonwy]

Prediction:

If they follow the pattern, I would predict that archmage will get an update at the same time that wizard gets an archetype.

Then I hope they are already penciling out ideas on the Wizard Archetype, because Archmage has needed a revamp for years.

Harper is both one of the most powerful trees and the weakest.

Meh. No more powerful than any tree that gives an alternate stat to to-hit/dmg and significantly less powerful than most. If you mean powerful as in build defining that I can understand. But I think if they improved the tree to be more than just support at Tier5/capstone, to actually be useful for a complete build than it would perforce attract more players to use it as such. Because it was never designed to look useful or to be as good as an actual class tree it got exactly the amount of use and regard that was intended.

[droid327]

Archmage is especially bad because it doesn't really have a good universal tree for casting to lean into.

Which just hammers home how undertuned Feydark Illusionist was when it was released, which is sad considering its relatively modern (compared to a lot of the other trees being discussed here)

Feydark should be able to serve as a force caster tree, which should synergize really well with all the Force bonuses in Archmage as well as the additional Force SLAs you get as an Evocation AM. But between the Magic Missile line being horribly outdated and not scaling enough at all, and the Shadowblade line also being horribly undertuned and not scaling enough at all, and the Arcane Blast SLAs being way undertuned and not scaling, there's just nothing to actually use as a force caster.

Maybe some kind of 17 Blightcaster/3 Wiz split, taking AM and FI for Force crit bonuses to use with Thorns spells? Even then, the best you're doing is Thorn Lance at 1d6+8...

[Tilomere]

When facing groups of more than 6 enemies, Air is currently even behind Water savants (who additionally can use Acid Well).

Why can't an air savant just spam doubled sonic spells at 2d6+6 with master of music? At 40% CDR they drop to 2 seconds, and you can rotate between the two endlessly.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Class-based trances give Ins Accuracy, universal trances do not. Note that Divine Will also gives Ins Accuracy.

Divine Might and Divine Will are the same thing. You get them from the same source and nowhere else.

I would find it reasonable that class-based trances had some minor advantage to them either in terms of stats or the fact that they only cost 4 AP instead of at least 8, but that's 1) not even consistent (Paladin DM is tier 2) and 2) the Insightful Accuracy is not a minor advantage. The most Insightful Accuracy you can get from gear is +10, which is significantly lower than what you can get from DW, and it only appears on a small handful of pieces that make slotting it pretty unviable.

If this system is going to favor classes over universal enhancement trees, I suppose I could get behind that but as it is it also currently favors Wis/Cha builds over others, and that seems unnecessary, unbalanced, unfun.

[SilentRunning]

Feydark Illusionist should have a selector for the attack and damage portion, either Charisma or Intelligence so it can work equally well with Wizards, Warlocks and Sorcerers.

This would leave Harper for classes like Rogues and Artificers.

droid327

Feydark should be able to serve as a force caster tree, which should synergize really well with all the Force bonuses in Archmage as well as the additional Force SLAs you get as an Evocation AM. But between the Magic Missile line being horribly outdated and not scaling enough at all, and the Shadowblade line also being horribly undertuned and not scaling enough at all, and the Arcane Blast SLAs being way undertuned and not scaling, there's just nothing to actually use as a force caster.

I think Eldritch Knight should be more Force casting focused more that Feydark Illusionist, sure there could be something to help out in the tree.

What type of archetype for wizard though? I'm sure you all have some ideas, atm I can't think of any.

[elvesunited]

Feydark Illusionist should have a selector for the attack and damage portion, either Charisma or Intelligence so it can work equally well with Wizards, Warlocks and Sorcerers.

This would leave Harper for classes like Rogues and Artificers.



I think Eldritch Knight should be more Force casting focused more that Feydark Illusionist, sure there could be something to help out in the tree.

What type of archetype for wizard though? I'm sure you all have some ideas, atm I can't think of any.

Order of the Scribes archetype
( excludes Eldritch Knight )
Has the enhancement ability to temporarily change the damage type of any spell. ( fireball doing cold damage for example )
Use your spellbook as a spellcasting implement.
Ability to have a ghost form of your spellbook float around you like some kind of pet.
Potentially UMD as a class skill with the ability to use int instead of cha as its attribute.

[Lotoc]

What type of archetype for wizard though? I'm sure you all have some ideas, atm I can't think of any.

I quite like the idea of Arcane Hierophant for wizard if we keep archetypes with the theme of 3/3.5 edition prestige classes
Swap EK for Nature's Protector (and add bear form), swap Pale Master for the Hierophant tree and revamp archmage.
Baseline medium proficiency and no ASF in medium, add some druid spells to the spellbook. Maybe some elemental forms that are distinct from druid, perhaps the capstone of the hierophant tree being an embodiment of primal magic as a form.
https://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/a...ant/index.html for reference.

Oddly enough, it could be a thematic batch of archetypes much like how the 3 most recent ones are edgier versions of their base classes.
Fist of the Forest Barbarian
Arcane Hierophant Wizard
and some third nature themed archetype.

[magaiti]

What type of archetype for wizard though? I'm sure you all have some ideas, atm I can't think of any.

Candle Caster!