Worst Enhancement Trees

[mbartol]

Archetypes themselves are already in need of modernizing.

So sad

[the_one_dwarfforged]

This can be said about most trees, Kensai is not the worst offender by any means.

Any source of doublestrike has an opportunity cost. Build for 100%, save a destiny feat/gear slot/epic stance.

This is true for many active abilities, more ranks only add extra weapon dice, which is a general design problem, not specific to Kensai.

1) Perhaps. And?

2) There is a difference between opportunity cost and pure waste. I personally think a 20 level investment, or 20th level investment, should never ever be undesirable for at least the specific purpose of that class/enhancement tree.

3) Ok. So fix that for all of them. Duh?

[noxx007]

if we're talking about fully investing in a given tree, Harper and Swashbuckler have got to be some of the worst. They're both surprisingly good splashes even in 2023, but going full T5 in them is a great way to gimp your character. There are RACIAL trees which perform better than these ones.

So I've been struggling to justify Swash as a splash anymore. 3 levels of bard for basically getting 19-20x3 crit finesse weaps. Some 18-20/3. However with things like Swords to Plowshares and Knights Training I can get the same for 1 feat on arguably better weapons. If I run something like shortswords I'm probably doing TWF and would take rogue or monk for dex to hit/dmg and bonus feats from monk. For throwing knives, I see potential from swash but idk, I just have a hard time justifying the 3 levels into bard just for swashbuckling. If it was a unique crit bonus I'd think completely different but it doesn't feel hard these days to get that competence bonus elsewhere.

[BlueLiger]

Feels like Archetypes have kinda slowed the pace of modernizing the older trees, even though those updates are largely successful. What are your top 4 existing trees in need of an update?


4. Occult Slayer. The other two barb trees are really strong, but OS has a builder spender system that really doesn't offer enough value right now

My Top 4 are

Ravager
Archmage
Ninja Spy
Arcane Archer

Though in regards to your 4th choice Occult Slayer I agree the builder spender is a little dared) at least works, unlike Ravager which is known to have about 5 choices in that tree that functionally do nothing in game.

[Bjond]

What about racial trees? Dwarf is just sad.

Dwarfs are full of CONtrary shortcomings. Even gnomes have a bigger tree.

Henshin mystic - HM is not that bad but definitely underwhelming, My main is 12 Fvs 6 monk Henshin

Anything Monk/HM can do, Rogue/TA does better with MUCH less AP and levels. My most recent stick "monk" only takes 3 levels in monk and that's pretty much just to give it a monk feel during play. Any more levels in monk than the bare minimum would reduce damage or defense.

IMHO, the majority of the enhancement trees can't stand alone and aren't worth taking to T5. There are only a few standout T5s. It's pretty easy to pick the winner when building for a particular style of play; eg. TWF = Tempest, Ranged = DWS (or HW), 2HF = FB, etc etc.. Casters are a bit different there, IMHO. They're much more dependent on base class levels and spellbook compared to tree (most SLAs are pretty bad compared to spells -- it's as if poor/weak spells were chosen as SLAs deliberately).

Most of the issues arise because people can't pick a style of play first; the determiner isn't purely personal taste, it's "type of TR". What TR you're doing will potentially constrain race and/or class. From there, it's just trying to make the best of things.

[elvesunited]

My Top 4 are

Ravager
Archmage
Ninja Spy
Arcane Archer

Though in regards to your 4th choice Occult Slayer I agree the builder spender is a little dared) at least works, unlike Ravager which is known to have about 5 choices in that tree that functionally do nothing in game.

While it's a rare build that I've never done, I have seen some do an Enchantment DC para-bow that pulled some decent DPS and CC. It's just one of the harder archer builds to pull off.

[SilentRunning]

Bjond

Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
What about racial trees? Dwarf is just sad.

Dwarfs are full of CONtrary shortcomings. Even gnomes have a bigger tree.

Or maybe you both are using the tree incorrectly.


Instead of talking about what enhancement trees are bad, maybe put up threads on each one, suggest changes without trying to make them op to the point of absurdity, like what happens every development cycle.

And keep those threads as current as possible. Also try to make suggestions without the usual vitriol that is seen in these forum.

[magaiti]

So I've been struggling to justify Swash as a splash anymore. 3 levels of bard for basically getting 19-20x3 crit finesse weaps. Some 18-20/3. However with things like Swords to Plowshares and Knights Training I can get the same for 1 feat on arguably better weapons. If I run something like shortswords I'm probably doing TWF and would take rogue or monk for dex to hit/dmg and bonus feats from monk. For throwing knives, I see potential from swash but idk, I just have a hard time justifying the 3 levels into bard just for swashbuckling. If it was a unique crit bonus I'd think completely different but it doesn't feel hard these days to get that competence bonus elsewhere.

Lies.
Any affected weapon (except light picks, due to their innate x4 crit) will have 15-20x3, while swashbuckling with appropriate improved critical feat.
You can't get the same with either swords or knight's on any end game (standard crit profile) weapon.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Lies.
Any affected weapon (except light picks, due to their innate x4 crit) will have 15-20x3, while swashbuckling with appropriate improved critical feat.
You can't get the same with either swords or knight's on any end game (standard crit profile) weapon.

It's been a couple weeks since I last used him, but I love my shadarkai handaxe swash/FB build, 15-20/x5 basic crit profile is such fun.

[jirksa]

Anything Monk/HM can do, Rogue/TA does better with MUCH less AP and levels. My most recent stick "monk" only takes 3 levels in monk and that's pretty much just to give it a monk feel during play. Any more levels in monk than the bare minimum would reduce damage or defense.

I disagree. While TA tree is better DMG, HM has some goodies:

• Dodge cap
• 10% elemental vulneribility (sorcs love me for this)
• Knock on the Sky or Unbalancing Strike debuffs
• an Imbue
• Heals (Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light)
• Compatible with Wis based characters

I know that TA has Haste boost, Helpless dmg, more double strike, more attack speed, etc.
I am just saying, that if you can get TA things from elsewhere, HM is a pretty interesting option with some unique debuffs and abilities

[misterski]

I disagree. While TA tree is better DMG, HM has some goodies:

• Dodge cap
• 10% elemental vulneribility (sorcs love me for this)
• Knock on the Sky or Unbalancing Strike debuffs
• an Imbue
• Heals (Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light)
• Compatible with Wis based characters

I know that TA has Haste boost, Helpless dmg, more double strike, more attack speed, etc.
I am just saying, that if you can get TA things from elsewhere, HM is a pretty interesting option with some unique debuffs and abilities

One glaring omission from HM, a THF (quarterstaff) focused enhancement tree, is strikethrough enhancements. I do believe that HM hasn't been updated since before strikethrough was added so that's probably why, but it's still a hole in the spec.

[jirksa]

One glaring omission from HM, a THF (quarterstaff) focused enhancement tree, is strikethrough enhancements. I do believe that HM hasn't been updated since before strikethrough was added so that's probably why, but it's still a hole in the spec.

Indeed, no strikethrough in this tree. They added the Imbue though, so they did not forget about this tree.

[Hawkwier]

My Top 4 are

Ravager
Archmage
Ninja Spy
Arcane Archer

Though in regards to your 4th choice Occult Slayer I agree the builder spender is a little dared) at least works, unlike Ravager which is known to have about 5 choices in that tree that functionally do nothing in game.

Can you elaborate on those 5 choices please? I'm concerned I might still be using some of them...

[misterski]

Indeed, no strikethrough in this tree. They added the Imbue though, so they did not forget about this tree.

They didn't add an imbue, they just updated the existing one to be compatible with the imbue system. They still haven't touched the tree as a whole in a very long time, though.

[droid327]

No one has mentioned how boring/old the sorc trees are? Or is it that the class itself feels so strong they could almost go without trees and be okay?

Harper is so underutilized. Int to hit/dmg, Know the Angles that's it, that's all that has ever really been desired from this tree on any character I've ever had that has used it.

Well I think its actually OK for sorcs, because Sorc trees are only for Sorcs, and Sorcs dont really need them. I think thats true of most pure caster trees though - aside from the statistical boost to power, crit, caster level, etc. they dont really do much, because its the spellbook that really provides your biggest build-side force multiplier. Maybe their SLA selections could use a bit of a tweak, but I think the trees are what Sorcs need them to be to stay competitive.

Harper, on the other hand, is hot garbage, and the only reason I didnt include it on my OP list is because I have absolutely no idea what its trying to be, or how they could possibly make it into a more effective and complete standalone tree without completely rebuilding it with a new identity - and I dont want to lose my 12 point INT combat package, which is what I'm afraid they'd do ><

It really depends on how you measure weakness. Looks to me like you're ONLY talking about T5 because other than Achmage, I've actually splashed the underlying classes specifically and ONLY to put points into Occult Slayer, Ninja Spy, and Warpriest/soul.

We did warn that DH was too weak in the Lammania forum, but it wasn't buffed up enough to be even a moderately interesting alternative.

Not necessarily T5s, but that's a big part of it. The trees all need a coherent identity, a playstyle they're designed around and adequately support. If a tree is only good for a single T3 splash or whatever, then I think it needs more work. Archmage is definitely in that category because its mainly a means to an end for certain SLAs, when its designed to be more of a force-casting tree, but it doesnt have nearly enough to fulfill that role.

Warpriest is meant to give Clerics a melee playstyle, but it doesnt have enough to give them the complete package - though yes, that's mostly because of the lackluster T5s, the clunky signature attack mechanic, not enough value in the cores, and the lack of baked-in standard crit bonuses (handcuffing to War Domain is bad enough, but then you're forced to multiclass for decent melee T5s which pushes back your Domain progression all the way to 20).

If a tree is only useful as a support tree for a multiclass and/or universal tree, then it needs more on its own.

[Bjond]

If a tree is only useful as a support tree for a multiclass and/or universal tree, then it needs more on its own.

I pretty much agree with that. INQuisitive isn't a top DPS tree at cap, but it's so beautifully self-sufficient that it makes one of the best leveling trees in the game.

Rogue's Thief-Acrobat is another that is incredibly self-sufficient to the point of being able to carry literally anything else you want to strap to it's back.

HW & VKF have features that I really REALLY hate, but use anyway because the trees are otherwise quite nice (VKF button mashing & HW misty step).

I'm trying to think of others that are that complete and drawing a blank. Others will likely fill it in, though.

[BlueLiger]

Can you elaborate on those 5 choices please? I'm concerned I might still be using some of them...

From this thread - https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...16#post6558416

I just tested most of Ravager, and the following enhancements don't do anything at all:

1) Laughter

2) Mutilate

3) Festering Wound

4) Dismember

[slarden]

1. Ninja. I tried playing it, with short swords, and it just stank. Too spendy, not enough effects. Switched to handwraps and its like the training wheels came off.
2. Archmage. Out of date, very AP pricey, needs more effects. Make magic missiles great.
3. Henshin needs more attention.
4. Acolyte of Skin, what a train wreck. Not what I expected, doesnt deliver and buggy too. Meh damage, form is not worth it.

5) Dark Apostate
6) Acolyte of Skin

I was really concerned they were going to nerf acolyte of the skin, but the comments here give me hope they won't

Based on my testing acolyte of the skin requires a much more active playstyle to optimize, but it's worked really well for me so far and seems to have a high ceiling for people willing to adjust playstyle to maximize acolyte of the skin potential. Aside from the stellar defensive support, the dps is very eldritch blast centric with fiendish symbiosis giving you massive burst damage with 33% up time. It has the same cooldown as wellspring of Power and same duration if using draconic pull from the wellspring so it pairs very nicely.

Against feared mobs, acolyte of the skin eld blast dps is 67% higher than SE T5 /TS capstone over a sustained period of time, but even higher for the 1 minute burst every 3 minutes. Against non-feared enemies aoe eld blast damage is still higher. SE/TS has the advantage of also boosting other spells like greater ruin, energy burst, arcane pulse, etc. where fiendish symbiosis is strictly a boost to eld blast damage, but this is still a compelling benefit for a tree with extremely high defensive capabilities

Since the bonus against feared mobs stacks with the bonus against helpless mobs and fiendish symbiosis, acolyte of the skin warlocks make great trash clearers in R10s if operated properly, and they are very durable with 20% extra hp - which is great for people with fewer reaper points and past lifes.

Here is a comparison of eld blast damage SE T5/TS Capstone vs Acolyte of the Skin. All setups assume at least 27 pts spent in TS for the pact dice, enervating shadow, penetrating blast for dr breaking, first 4 cores and chain.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

From a leveling perspective acolyte of the skin is a bit more front-loaded at almost every level range.

Is it perfect, no. But it's also less likely to get nerfed than blightcaster since maximizing potential requires a bit more effort. Also beast mode is really nice but is entirely melee ranged which balances it out. Based on comments maybe it will get a buff

I think archmage should be looked at as almost every wizard goes T5 PM or T5 EK for the hp. Monk needs a major overhaul in general.

[Hawkwier]

From this thread - https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...16#post6558416

I just tested most of Ravager, and the following enhancements don't do anything at all:

1) Laughter

2) Mutilate

3) Festering Wound

4) Dismember

Thanks for responding, and WOW! I'm using 3 of those!

Definitely put Ravager top of this list then. Whilst we can argue the merits and otherwise of intended trees, surely fixing glaringly broken bugs like these must be the priority. I mean, 4 in the one tree??!!

This is so ridiculous. What on earth are the Devs doing here?

[Aelonwy]

Well I think its actually OK for sorcs, because Sorc trees are only for Sorcs, and Sorcs dont really need them.

A lot of the trees being mentioned here are used only by that class. IMHO no tree should be boring and bland or what is the point? Sorc is definitely in a comfortable position though to need almost nothing but its preferred cores. But Savants still feel like some of the worst trees to use because they are so very dull. Should sorc trees be a priority? Absolutely not. But someday they will need to give them a once over and make them actually fun and interesting.