Character Style Balance - Sorc at an Anniversary Party

[Raithe]

Below is a video clip of my sorceror making a standard Anniversary Party run. This is not a speed run, it's just one run of what will end up being dozens. The point of posting this to the forums is for comparison purposes. I plan to use this initial post to illustrate why I think the "character style" (a combination of class abilities and combat style advantages) balance of DDO leaves much to be desired.



The sorc is first life, 28-point, no raid gear. Yet I use her or a similar sorceror of the appropriate level for any of the following:

1) Crystal Cove for ingredients
2) Cannith challenges for ingredients
3) Anniversary Party for favors
4) Mabar challenges for ingredients
5) Eveningstar challenges for ingredients
6) Saga quests for the purpose of trading the skill tome in for purified Eberron dragonshard fragments.

This has been true for I would say close to 15 years.

I will be running Anniversary Party on other characters, particularly melee characters, and seeing how well I can do in comparison. I will post the best attempts and make comparison comments. You can do likewise, or you can comment on the comparisons I make or any of the videos (I can't prevent you from posting anything you want, of course).

What "character style" do you think works best in this game?

Notes about this initial video (I may update this later):
1) After reviewing it a few times, it seems clear that most things in the challenge are just minor speed bumps, including some of the red-named. I doubt that will be true for most other characters that I use for this thread.
2) In at least one fight, I think I come out of it with more hit points than I went into it, without healing.

[Valerianus]

sorry, maybe i'm misunderstanding, but i have the impression that this would be about the endless game balance thing, but this has nothing to do with game balance, or representative of it whatsoever.


from what you describe the goal is a so-called "challenge farmer" build.

to stay on this topic, yeah i think you are doing it right


sure i agree the class, or multiclass, is very important, the character style, usually it's a first lifer and you usually want speed, buffs, dd, self-heal, while having good dps, all tailored for the normal diff the challenges are scaled to so yeah a squishy first life sorc will do good for the goal of mats\min + solo + stay alive, no way you are doing it imho e.g. with a pure fighter, maybe a multiclass swashbuckler for run speed and buffs and heals and dd, but usually casters are used for buffs and dd and aoe damage, aoe damage means speed. for heroics i would not have chosen a sorc, in epics it's a bit different, cocoon for everyone + full ap builds so everything is a lot easier, more build options.

also personal preferences, my old challenge farmer is a lvl 15, the usual golden level, iconic bladeforged pala2\warlock13, no worries about sp, warlock is survivable + easy racial self-heal in heroics, buffs, aoe, dd. when i rolled it was good, now i don't know anymore, i'm not into challenges anymore.



may i suggest you, imho if you have access to falconer, take sprint boost for moar speed.

[mrfantastic1]

Below is a video clip of my sorceror making a standard Anniversary Party run. This is not a speed run, it's just one run of what will end up being dozens. The point of posting this to the forums is for comparison purposes. I plan to use this initial post to illustrate why I think the "character style" (a combination of class abilities and combat style advantages) balance of DDO leaves much to be desired.



The sorc is first life, 28-point, no raid gear. Yet I use her or a similar sorceror of the appropriate level for any of the following:

1) Crystal Cove for ingredients
2) Cannith challenges for ingredients
3) Anniversary Party for favors
4) Mabar challenges for ingredients
5) Eveningstar challenges for ingredients
6) Saga quests for the purpose of trading the skill tome in for purified Eberron dragonshard fragments.

This has been true for I would say close to 15 years.

I will be running Anniversary Party on other characters, particularly melee characters, and seeing how well I can do in comparison. I will post the best attempts and make comparison comments. You can do likewise, or you can comment on the comparisons I make or any of the videos (I can't prevent you from posting anything you want, of course).

What "character style" do you think works best in this game?

Notes about this initial video (I may update this later):
1) After reviewing it a few times, it seems clear that most things in the challenge are just minor speed bumps, including some of the red-named. I doubt that will be true for most other characters that I use for this thread.
2) In at least one fight, I think I come out of it with more hit points than I went into it, without healing.

Hi Raithe,.
I think I have a interesting approach to this topic. I started forming a cohesive foundation that last night. Looking forward to exploring it more

[Raithe]

...i have the impression that this would be about the endless game balance thing, but this has nothing to do with game balance, or representative of it whatsoever

Please elaborate. I don't exactly follow your point. What part of DDO do you think is unaffected by the comparisons I'm going to make (which I haven't made yet)?

from what you describe the goal is a so-called "challenge farmer" build.

The goal is to make comparisons and have something to look at that backs up the assertion. Challenges didn't exist when the sorc in the initial post was made, which was about 4-5 days after launch of the game. Item #6 in the list isn't related to challenges - it's just completing quests in a strategic manner. My only purpose for playing my own personal version of DDO is to 1) kill time in a diverting fashion, and 2) figure out the best way of doing something. My premise for this thread is that figuring out the best way of doing something (anything in this game really) usually involves a sorceror and rarely involves a melee character.

...so yeah a squishy first life sorc will do good for the goal of mats\min...

"Squishiness" is something I am going to compare, for sure.

...maybe a multiclass swashbuckler for run speed and buffs and heals and dd...

It's funny you should say that...

[LightBear]

Fastest builds are Bard-Barians, swahbuckling not required.
Second fastest are Favored-Fists.
Runner up (pun intended) are Air Sorc with a whip of Barb or a few pinches Bard.

[yfernbottom]

For challenge farming a character that becomes strong at relatively low levels is generally best, at least in my experience. For example, you don't get more party favors for beating something down on an epic rather than heroic character. What you really want is something that is absurdly strong by around level 7 or 8, to max out your ability to blow through mobs that are still low level (your level +5 or so from the dropdown) and relatively weak.

[Rockcrusher99]

From what I've seen, the event isn't intended to be a major challenge for most players. I'm sure that's by design for approachability.

On max-level runs, my caster used to one-shot most of the bosses with a force-based Shiradi before the newer ED changes. We ran 4-man 2:09 runs and 2:30 two-man runs.
With the new EDs, almost every caster and melee build in the game can destroy these bosses quickly.

In a nutshell, I wouldn't use this event or any other as a yardstick for measuring player classes or damage.

[C-Dog]

from what you describe the goal is a so-called "challenge farmer" build.

I find the other end of the spectrum is a "sweet spot", before enemy casters get any real "save or suck" spells.

Level 5 Artificer 3/Barb 1/Fighter 1. Needs the right gear - not elite sets (tho' those would certainly help), but a simple 1-slot CC'd repeater (for +6d6 elemental damage), a few key items of drop gear, a couple easily farmed named items, and I use a Mimic cloak (for that DR). Give them Resilience since repeater Arti's don't need to cast repeated spells, and the kensai +8/+8 boost. Gets the job done (almost always) without fail.

(And there are some flaws in this comparison - obviously can't go for the top-tier Crystal Cove materials. )


Maybe what you're observing is less about character balance, and more about how a well-thought out build is superior to a random one, even with similar gear.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I am a strong advocate of a tireless pursuit of balance in games. This does not mean all classes being equally good at all things. 28 pt Sorc being good for speed running easy content is WAI IMO.

[Raithe]

28 pt Sorc being good for speed running easy content is WAI IMO.

Three things:

1) You can take that stance, but it ignores the fact that new players of other characters (non-sorcs, non-warlocks) have to go through character progression. Right now, non-reaper heroic progression (as in the original game up to level 20) is what I would call broken. Yes, you can solo it instead of grouping, but that doesn't exactly appeal to the internet gaming population, and even less to the typical fans of RPGs. No new players (or very few) eventually leads to server shutdown, it would be inevitable.

2) Level 37 on Anniversary Party is a six-star, as in that is as high as it goes. I would call it somewhere between legendary hard and legendary elite on a standard quest, at least as far as CR levels and DCs.

3) I wanted to complete the challenge in the video and make it clear what actually happened, but it wasn't important to the comparisons I am going to make. The point is not the speed run, which it wasn't. The dissection of the differences between "character styles" will be much more nuanced than just looking at the completion time, which is why I posted a video instead of a screenshot.

For anyone wondering, It will likely be a few days before I have comparisons to post. I wanted to post the initial video up front to let anyone wanting to post their own video adequate time before I stop adding to the thread. I actually have to get some of my melee characters to level 32 (from 31) before I can make a fair comparison.

[C-Dog]

Three things:

1) ... Yes, you can solo it instead of grouping, but that doesn't exactly appeal to the internet gaming population, and even less to the typical fans of RPGs.

I am always amused by statements like this.

Have you done a wide poll of "the internet gaming population", or of "typical fans of RPG's"?

I have no problem if you say "of my group" or "of the people I game with" or "in my Guild" - but (I'm confident in guessing) that you really are not in a position to speak for a wide population with any authority.

I'm confident in this, b/c I know a lot of people who enjoy soloing. I sincerely doubt that it's the majority, but they are as "typical" as any other.

[Raithe]

I am always amused by statements like this.
Have you done a wide poll of "the internet gaming population", or of "typical fans of RPG's"?

No polls are needed, the information is built into the very terms "online" and "role-playing."

1) There are TONS of single-player, non-online games. They are, in fact, more popular than online games. People go to online play to play with other people. The only reason I play solo is precisely what this thread is about.
2) Role-playing means taking part as a sub-construct of a social group. The term "role" is about playing a fighter, or a mage, or a rogue in a group of adventurers.

The part where I may be out on a limb is assuming people won't want to solo to get to the point they can take part in an online social group. I'm willing to take that bet simply because of a long life and experience with humans.

[yfernbottom]

2) Role-playing means taking part in a sub-construct of a social group. The term "role" is about playing a fighter, or a mage, or a rogue in a group of adventurers.

No. That is something very specific to Diku based MMOs. It's not even universally true of PnP DnD, which is where the idea of those mechanical class roles in a party basically game from. The "role" refers to taking on the role of a fictional character, and deciding how they deal with situations and develop over time in the fictional setting they are embedded in. It can be done entirely solo in a CRPG (including a MMO), though to someone roleplaying in the sense of taking on a fictional personality it is pretty pointless without an audience I will allow. In a pen and paper game you generally need at least two players, though there are gamebooks that blur the line.

This is pretty close to the standard definition (from Wikipedia):

"A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game, RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development. Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines."

[C-Dog]

2) Role-playing means taking part as a sub-construct of a social group. The term "role" is about playing a fighter, or a mage, or a rogue in a group of adventurers.

Sorry, when you said "RPG" I thought "MMORPG" - my mistake. I had no idea you were talking about table top.

(Why are you talking about tabletop in a MMO Game? There is not a lot of room for "role playing" in DDO, unless your static group is doing that.)

[Valerianus]

Please elaborate. I don't exactly follow your point. What part of DDO do you think is unaffected by the comparisons I'm going to make (which I haven't made yet)?

The goal is to make comparisons and have something to look at that backs up the assertion. Challenges didn't exist when the sorc in the initial post was made, which was about 4-5 days after launch of the game. Item #6 in the list isn't related to challenges - it's just completing quests in a strategic manner. My only purpose for playing my own personal version of DDO is to 1) kill time in a diverting fashion, and 2) figure out the best way of doing something. My premise for this thread is that figuring out the best way of doing something (anything in this game really) usually involves a sorceror and rarely involves a melee character.

"Squishiness" is something I am going to compare, for sure.

It's funny you should say that...

the "endless game balance thing" i was referring to is the whole "nerf the casters cause balance reasons" endless arguing and i find it weird cause i think there's no balance, it will never be, there is meta-shift. sure it's not nice when happens that something is ridicolously overpowered, but i don't think that it is happening now. about some melee tweak, yes, would be good.
i added that the party event can't be used as a metric imho.
so i wanted to say, yeah i admit what i wrote was not clear, that i expected yet another nerf casters thread but when i saw the party event involved i was not so sure anymore, cause some party event performance comparison means nothing.

but then you wrote "My premise for this thread is that figuring out the best way of doing something (anything in this game really) usually involves a sorceror and rarely involves a melee character" so in the end now i'm confused again, probably just because we see so many threads about nerf casters that even one, like yours, that does not say it explicitly, it triggers the feeling that it is saying it maybe implicitly.
i apologize, maybe the mess it's me thinking wrong and jumping to conclusions.


oh, that swashbuckler thing, i randomly mentioned it cause years ago, don't mind it, when sb was new-ish, i happened to duo some challenges with a friend, he wanted to farm stuff specially in the rushmore mansion series, and he did a pdk bard swashbuckler with some fighter and 1 barb iirc. it was very effective to run fast in that place and single target dps the bosses, with a couple of self buffs and heals. i was talking about challenges and it came to mind for no real reason. also he played it good, i am slow even if you give me a fast char.

after all, if building with a goal, a class is a tool, and we can combine tools for a purpose. so interesting.

anyway, now that i think about the topic, the anniversary event can be done fast by a melee too for sure, by any build that can just solo kill the bosses, if you have to solo. there are no large pack of mobs in this event iirc. also it's not mandatory to stop and kill everything.

you said a really nice thing " My only purpose for playing my own personal version of DDO is to 1) kill time in a diverting fashion, and 2) figure out the best way of doing something" yeah me too, totally what i am doing too, well, what i am trying to do: 1) have fun and 2) the meta aka learn something and try to improve. probably all of us, in some fashion. the problem\boon is we all see and define and prioritize things differently (yes i know, i'm stating the obvious) so we players discuss non-stop but that's why forum is a cool different game inside the game, after all.

ranting again, i'd better stop.

[Stradivarius]

Raithe, post a pure melee (fighter, monk, barb etc.) 28 pt no spectacular gear. Get it on YT, no tricks just vanilla straight up run it. It'll be hilarious.

P.S. Wouldn't be surprised if you even died.

[magaiti]

Fastest builds are Bard-Barians, swahbuckling not required.
Second fastest are Favored-Fists.
Runner up (pun intended) are Air Sorc with a whip of Barb or a few pinches Bard.

Bard-Barian: 30 + 19 fast movement + 10 barb + 15 Fleeting Footsteps
Sacred Fist: 30 + 20 fast movement + (10 SD OR 15 GMoF mantle)

edit: wanted to make an argument for SF being faster, but Sacred Defender 10% and GMoF 15% are both action boost bonuses

[Raithe]

Below is a speed run (as in I was trying to complete as fast as I could) for my primary melee character, which used to be a fighter/rogue (my version of a swashbuckler before the enhancement tree existed), but was reconfigured when the tree was released. The character is first life, 32-point (Drow), and was made a couple of months after launch of the game (when I earned Drow favor).



Comparisons

Damage
Analysis: The sorceror won all the damage contests, except for Lichabel, which was a tie. Note the sorceror could have used "Awaken Elemental Weakness" against the lich and it would have reduced the fight time dramatically (more than a 50% cut).

Bard-Fighter Melee

Challenge Star Fight	Video Time	Duration
Steelstar	1:01 - 1:45	44 seconds
Cordovan	2:17 - 2:54	37 seconds
Severlin	3:45 - 4:23	38 seconds
Lichabel	5:02 - 6:05	63 seconds
The Dark Overlord	14:42 - 15:00	18 seconds

Sorceror

Challenge Star Fight	Video Time	Duration
Steelstar	0:46 - 1:08	22 seconds
Cordovan	1:33 - 1:48	15 seconds
Severlin	2:33 - 2:45	12 seconds
Lichabel	3:52 - 4:55	63 seconds
The Dark Overlord	12:23 - 12:36	13 seconds

Defense
Analysis: neither character is in danger of dying in this quest, but the following notes could be taken:
1) The melee definitely takes less damage when hit, but spends more time in the middle of a thicket of mobs.
2) The sorc can "fly" away and heal under any conditions that seem problematic, and has "Barrier of Scales" to use and reuse to effectively add ~400 hit points on top of her actual hit points. She also has "Mass Protection from Elements" for a similar effect against elemental attacks.
3) As you raise the dungeon CR levels and damage amounts, the melee is going to have to spend more time healing and less time attacking. Not as true for the sorceror.

General Spelunking
Analysis: The melee character spent 7 minutes and 7 seconds running the kobold gauntlet (video time: 6:33 - 13:40) until he can talk to Jeets without interruption. The sorceror only spent 5 minutes 38 seconds (video time: 5:33 - 11:05) and killed more mobs. The sorceror has a huge advantage dealing with mobs from a distance and using effects like chain lightning that don't require mobs to be closely gathered. Note both characters have dimension door and access to scrolls including 9th level and artificer. The melee cannot use his sprint boost very often, because of the need to use other boosts which can't activate simultaneously.

Overall
I could probably beat the non-speed-run time of my sorc on the melee bard/fighter, with enough practice and optimization. I'm not going to bother. The sorceror simply does better at almost everything.

[Dmitrythewizzy]

I could probably beat the non-speed-run time of my sorc on the melee bard/fighter, with enough practice and optimization. I'm not going to bother. The sorceror simply does better at almost everything.

I can do the same thing as your sorc on my bombadier fire alch so you are balanced with him at least.

[rabidfox]

Nothing lives thru Endless Fusilade on my lowish damage utility artificer with the occasional exception of Steelstar because of how he's scripted. So 18 seconds or less on every fight.

IIRC the hardest part of the anniversary fights is coming in on lower level characters solo that can't deal with certain fights. Lich is a beast that's a pain on lower level casters because of Mantle of Invulnerability. (this is going off memory of my FvS caster not being able to kill Lich in a prior year's event)