Making Universal Trees Universal

[EdsanDarkbane]

I cannot articulate my solution without giving an example.

If I run feydark enhancements for to hit and dmg with CHA. Can I have my CHA score become the modifier for DCs in other Universal enhancement tree abilities?

If I run Harper enhancements that make INT my to hit and dmg, can I have INT become my modifier for universal trees?

I would like to see this extended to racial trees as well.

This is a great change.

[droid327]

Some caster abilities are (INT/WIS/CHA), these are the ones that are meant to be flex-stat abilities. Other abilities are limited to one stat because they're meant to align with builds that use that stat.

Universal trees dont mean you can use any stat...they mean any class can add it. So any class can be a CHA caster with Feydark, not that Feydark lets you cast everything with CHA

[ahpook]

I cannot articulate my solution without giving an example.

If I run feydark enhancements for to hit and dmg with CHA. Can I have my CHA score become the modifier for DCs in other Universal enhancement tree abilities?

If I run Harper enhancements that make INT my to hit and dmg, can I have INT become my modifier for universal trees?

I would like to see this extended to racial trees as well.

This is a great change.

So, MOAR power!? I really don't think that is what the game needs.

[EdsanDarkbane]

So, MOAR power!? I really don't think that is what the game needs.

This would open up more build options,

Why do you think this would increase power?

[C-Dog]

This would open up more build options,

Why do you think this would increase power?

Oh, that's funny! Thanks!

[EdsanDarkbane]

Oh, that's funny! Thanks!

Can you give me an example?

I am not dismissing the the opposing view, but I do not believe people using more trees in more ways is inherently power creep.

[C-Dog]

Can you give me an example?

Okay, walk with me on this.

I ~can~ give you an example - I can give you dozens - but if you can't think of how allowing "One Ability Modifier to Rule Them All!" would NOT create power creep, then, sorry, I don't see any common/middle ground for a place to start a conversation about it.

It's that obvious to me. <shrug>

[EdsanDarkbane]

Okay, walk with me on this.

I ~can~ give you an example - I can give you dozens - but if you can't think of how allowing "One Ability Modifier to Rule Them All!" would NOT create power creep, then, sorry, I don't see any common/middle ground for a place to start a conversation about it.

It's that obvious to me. <shrug>

I hard suggested it for the universal trees. I think this would be fun, and create more replayability. I don't see any ability or combo in the universal trees that can compete with a dragonborn 10th liger lvl 1 breath attack. Or a tiefling ash ability.

I think it would be fun for them to consider and test doing it for racials trees.

Hope this clarifies my point and allows you to give me an example.

[ahpook]

Can you give me an example?

I am not dismissing the the opposing view, but I do not believe people using more trees in more ways is inherently power creep.

Well, if a feydark illusionist splashes into the Falconry tree and takes Diving attack their DC currently would be 12 based on the limited wisdom of that char. With your rule change they would now get use their Cha and it would now be 22 as their Cha is 20 pts higher than their wis. That is moar power. But as C-dog mentioned this is so obvious it doesn't need pointing out.

If you are saying "but that is so limited and that Illusionist would have to give up allot to get that DivingAttack that it really wouldn't be power creep" then you may be right or their may other abilities where you are wrong. It is highly unlikely that their are no cases where it would not be power creep and if that were the case then who would really be taking advantage of this effort that the devs just put in (most people only swap out for things that make them stronger in the style of play they prefer). Is there a specific mix that you are looking at that you think would not be fun and not add more power?

So I guess a more fulsome answer would be: This seems like a bad idea because it will either add yet more power creep and possibly create an ability blend that is overpowered or it would be a waste of developer time as it would create an feature that very few people would use. Even in the unlikely case that things are well balanced and this is not a significant power creep, I would still rate this a low priority for the devs well behind fixing the ever increasing list of bugs, fixing lag, improving the TR process, improving quest mechanics, ....

[EdsanDarkbane]

Well, if a feydark illusionist splashes into the Falconry tree and takes Diving attack their DC currently would be 12 based on the limited wisdom of that char. With your rule change they would now get use their Cha and it would now be 22 as their Cha is 20 pts higher than their wis. That is moar power. But as C-dog mentioned this is so obvious it doesn't need pointing out.

If you are saying "but that is so limited and that Illusionist would have to give up allot to get that DivingAttack that it really wouldn't be power creep" then you may be right or their may other abilities where you are wrong. It is highly unlikely that their are no cases where it would not be power creep and if that were the case then who would really be taking advantage of this effort that the devs just put in (most people only swap out for things that make them stronger in the style of play they prefer). Is there a specific mix that you are looking at that you think would not be fun and not add more power?

So I guess a more fulsome answer would be: This seems like a bad idea because it will either add yet more power creep and possibly create an ability blend that is overpowered or it would be a waste of developer time as it would create an feature that very few people would use. Even in the unlikely case that things are well balanced and this is not a significant power creep, I would still rate this a low priority for the devs well behind fixing the ever increasing list of bugs, fixing lag, improving the TR process, improving quest mechanics, ....

Let's say they make the change and someone takes that attack you mentioned and made charisma based. Say it's a fire sorc.
Now let's say you and the universal fire sorc roll into welcome to sharn. You play a melee class you like.

At the first encounter let's make up a number 8. 8 bad guys. The fire sorc runs in to do his fancy blind attack. It chunks five of them pretty good but he gets no kills. You chase down the two ranges guys and check on your the fire sorc who has mopped up the other six.

Scenario 2

You continue and hit the next encounter of 8 bad guys. This time you are going to head to the main group....and one, two spells later you get to first enemy in time to pick the collectible.

I don't see how your suggestion makes a good case for power creep, or introduces balance issues.

I am suggesting it only as a way to increase build diversity.

[Artos_Fabril]

Why do you think this would increase power?

To spell it out where others wouldn't:
You pick up cha to hit and damage from FDI, now all your universal abilities depend off cha
You pick up (now cha based) KTA from Harper.
Then fire Sorc with remaining points in EK and inqis for sustained dpa and survivability between spells
With everything running of fire spellpower and cha.

[droid327]

LOL so a HW running with a DEX based GCS from Feydark?

I can add full WIS combat with a trance with just 7 pts Falcon 8 pts Harper instead of 23 Falcon