Meh Melee Class

[Stradivarius]

Agreed. Also reduce ranged DPS. This was the way it was early in DDO's history, which made it a fairly basic hack-n-slash but at least far better than what exists today.

Ignoring the much larger picture of what a D&D game should involve, making dungeons better for new players and old involves keeping them difficult to complete while maintaining the ease of avoiding death. Mobs do not need to be ultra deadly in every single encounter, and whether to bypass an encounter completely should be a consequential decision in a dungeon. There are at least 3 things I would add as notations to the discussions of this thread:

1) The name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons, not Reapers & Reincarnations. Nothing the developers decide in the way of design should be based on a mode of the game that is crudely scaling damage in both directions, saves and DCs up, healing down, and bestowing enhancement points that don't apply to other modes of the game. Reaper mode needs to go away completely for this game to deliver on group play. If they want, they can bring some of the decent design points of reaper mode into the standard game modes.

2) The problem with a small playerbase and a wide level range is identical to the problem of power creep in general. You wind up with design constraints that are too diverse and don't allow dungeons to be designed for new players and veterans. The level cap needed to be lowered, not raised, and power creep needs to be scaled down by an absurd amount. They will lose much of the ~5% to 10% of players who remain playing, but I really don't see that as much of a problem.

3) The original problem of DDO remains: what do players do when their character is "completed?" For most D&D campaigns, characters are retired and you start an entirely new campaign with new characters. They have been introducing content as if this was the strategy, but that is basically not how anyone plays. I could go into the politics and diplomacy aspect of what a single campaign could entail, but that is not going to happen with this development team. They need to rethink how "starting over" works in this game, and they need to make it better synchronized so that static groups can "start over" together. Part of the balance of the table top game is just being stuck with the classes of characters you rolled from the beginning.

Agreed. Reaper was a lazy bandaid to a much more intractable problem, powercreep and legacy characters. Usually alts are the solution to this problem but I guess that's not attractive in ddo?

[jirksa]

g some of the decent design points of reaper mode into the standard game modes.

2) The problem with a small playerbase and a wide level range is identical to the problem of power creep in general. You wind up with design constraints that are too diverse and don't allow dungeons to be designed for new players and veterans. The level cap needed to be lowered, not raised, and power creep needs to be scaled down by an absurd amount. They will lose much of the ~5% to 10% of players who remain playing, but I really don't see that as much of a problem.

Although I partially agree, they just can't and won't nerf a whole playstyle into oblivion. Because they cannot lose any more players. 10 % lost players equals 10% less revenue = more then 10% profit lost, since Costs exists. For example 100$ revenue and 80$ costs -> 20$ profit. Loose 10% players -> revenue goes to 90$, profit is 10$. Basic economics is not a music theory complex. Even SSG knows this.

[mbartol]

Although I partially agree, they just can't and won't nerf a whole playstyle into oblivion. Because they cannot lose any more players. 10 % lost players equals 10% less revenue = more then 10% profit lost, since Costs exists. For example 100$ revenue and 80$ costs -> 20$ profit. Loose 10% players -> revenue goes to 90$, profit is 10$. Basic economics is not a music theory complex. Even SSG knows this.

Tell that to the stealth players (if you can find any). Others will be able to passionately list other playstyles that got shafted over the years. The point is, SSG never seems to mind pushing players away.

[Blessedwynd]

If you want to play to the games highest potential the only way you're doing that is by playing a caster.

True, if your measure of highest potential is highest content on highest difficulty solo.

Casters have significant downside too. If you need to have it all try WoW.

[Bjond]

Really, all they'd have to do is change Plague Reapers from an anti-melee reaper to an anti-caster reaper; ie. instead of preventing melee from being healed on a successful melee attack, perform ranged attacks on those not in melee range that cut spell power, ranged power, and DCs by 90%. Or, add a Mirror Reaper that reflects all non-melee damage back at the source, including instant-kills, with magnified DCs.

There you go. Not one class nerfed and now reaper becomes too dangerous to run as a caster zerg-ball.

[thegreatcthulhu]

This is exactly what I started thinking while reading this thread. Seems like a good solution would be to reduce caster spell point efficiency. DPS is unchanged, only total damage/casts in the tank. Could be a reaper penalty to not affect lower level play. If casters are still able to solo r10 but require mana pots, then they can either fund the game or group, which seems fair enough to me.

I am under the impression hurting SP efficiency for casters is what Sev is thinking about doing with the reaper update. He made some comment on one of Cord's streams that he believes what is giving casters such a huge advantage in higher reapers is the sheer amount of reaper bonuses they get to SP (maybe also the lost soul pickups but that could be a separate thing). HOWEVER, I could be remembering his words incorrectly.

[Stradivarius]

I am under the impression hurting SP efficiency for casters is what Sev is thinking about doing with the reaper update. He made some comment on one of Cord's streams that he believes what is giving casters such a huge advantage in higher reapers is the sheer amount of reaper bonuses they get to SP (maybe also the lost soul pickups but that could be a separate thing). HOWEVER, I could be remembering his words incorrectly.

This is exactly what Sev said and he's right, but again, I think there is one dude on their team that just really really really enjoys playing casters and doesn't want any legitimate balancing done on them.

So nothings going to happen basically.

[EinarMal]

So I would just point out a few things that are not really being taken into account with the same crowd that posts on nearly every thread with the caster pitch forks.

1. Not all "casters" are the same
2. Show me a video of a deep gnome Wizard or a Warlock soling the entire Sharn chain at cap on R10 and I will actually be impressed (no EK builds)
3. Focus needs to be on the hand full of over performing classes not "casters"
4. If you blanket nerf "casters", lower spell damage overall etc... the less powerful classes will basically be useless
5. Immunity stripping is very useful basically for end game why? A huge portion of damage comes from Draconic mantle, Draconic Breath, Ruin Intensified
6. At cap the whole "just build a second element" argument is just flat out wrong, it is not possible to get even close to the same damage because of point #5 as well as losing main spells from rotation

I really don't think the following casters are overpowered at all.
1. Wizards
2. Bards
3. Clerics
4. Warlocks
5. FVS
6. Artificer

Those classes are fine, soloing on R8+ would require very top end gear and skill in my opinion across a broad range of quests. Some quests would likely be impossible due to immunities etc...

Basically we have Druids they are overpowered that is true they need some adjustments, maybe alchemists although they kind of "Self Nerf" by being less fun to play for most IMO. Sorcerers probably.

[Stradivarius]

So I would just point out a few things that are not really being taken into account with the same crowd that posts on nearly every thread with the caster pitch forks.

1. Not all "casters" are the same
2. Show me a video of a deep gnome Wizard or a Warlock soling the entire Sharn chain at cap on R10 and I will actually be impressed (no EK builds)
3. Focus needs to be on the hand full of over performing classes not "casters"
4. If you blanket nerf "casters", lower spell damage overall etc... the less powerful classes will basically be useless
5. Immunity stripping is very useful basically for end game why? A huge portion of damage comes from Draconic mantle, Draconic Breath, Ruin Intensified
6. At cap the whole "just build a second element" argument is just flat out wrong, it is not possible to get even close to the same damage because of point #5 as well as losing main spells from rotation

I really don't think the following casters are overpowered at all.
1. Wizards
2. Bards
3. Clerics
4. Warlocks
5. FVS
6. Artificer

Those classes are fine, soloing on R8+ would require very top end gear and skill in my opinion across a broad range of quests. Some quests would likely be impossible due to immunities etc...

Basically we have Druids they are overpowered that is true they need some adjustments, maybe alchemists although they kind of "Self Nerf" by being less fun to play for most IMO. Sorcerers probably.

This is reasonable.

But remember this game has so many builds criss-crossing whichever way. If they want to balance they need to deep dive on what is exactly letting these "caster-type builds" just solo wreck high end reaper content.

[EinarMal]

If they want to keep immunity strip as is they need to adjust a few classes.

Druid:
1. Get rid of save portion of mantle of icy soul
2. Double cooldown on ice flowers
3. Tsunami 20s cooldown

I am less sure on the blightcaster stuff, probably OP and could also use toning down.

But it is these kind of changes that are needed to bring Druid more in line.

Sorcerer:
1. Get rid of healing from Reborn in Fire
2. Get rid of shorter cool downs for Sorcerer

Alchemist:
1. 15s cool down on multi-vial

Those type of changes are what we should be doing not nerfing "casters"

[EinarMal]

This is reasonable.

But remember this game has so many builds criss-crossing whichever way. If they want to balance they need to deep dive on what is exactly letting these "caster-type builds" just solo wreck high end reaper content.

Almost all builds that I know of are pure class for casters, generally it doesn't help to multi-class.

At cap it comes down to immunity stripping and a few numbers. Classes that have it do much better DPS from mantle, breath, ruin intensified, higher critical damage multiplier, no mob healing from damage, easier gearing etc...

All they need to do to fix immunity is to change to absorption system.

1. Get rid of mobs healing from player damage spells
2. Change immunity to 50% absorption (so fire "immune" take half damage from fire)
3. Remove immunity stripping from game

The other thing you can do which eliminates a lot of complexity is to focus on key numbers and level cap them (along the lines of jump skill).

At the end of the day these matter:
Spell Power
Spell Critical Chance
Spell Critical Damage
Helpless Damage
Spell DC
Spell Penetration

That is pretty much it, if you level capped those it would reduce the top end, without affecting lesser players, lesser classes etc...

So at level 32 maybe it something like:
Spell Power: 1000
Spell Critical Chance: 50%
Spell Critical Damage: 50%
Helpless Damage: 30%
Spell DC: 120
Spell Penetration: 60

Essentially get there however you want, but anything above the cap does nothing. Makes it very easy to balance the game on casters with these two changes. The numbers above can be tweaked easily to balance, and would decrease/increase with levels.

[Zites]

Almost all builds that I know of are pure class for casters, generally it doesn't help to multi-class.

At cap it comes down to immunity stripping and a few numbers. Classes that have it do much better DPS from mantle, breath, ruin intensified, higher critical damage multiplier, no mob healing from damage, easier gearing etc...

All they need to do to fix immunity is to change to absorption system.

1. Get rid of mobs healing from player damage spells
2. Change immunity to 50% absorption (so fire "immune" take half damage from fire)
3. Remove immunity stripping from game

The other thing you can do which eliminates a lot of complexity is to focus on key numbers and level cap them (along the lines of jump skill).

At the end of the day these matter:
Spell Power
Spell Critical Chance
Spell Critical Damage
Helpless Damage
Spell DC
Spell Penetration

That is pretty much it, if you level capped those it would reduce the top end, without affecting lesser players, lesser classes etc...

So at level 32 maybe it something like:
Spell Power: 1000
Spell Critical Chance: 50%
Spell Critical Damage: 50%
Helpless Damage: 30%
Spell DC: 120
Spell Penetration: 60

Essentially get there however you want, but anything above the cap does nothing. Makes it very easy to balance the game on casters with these two changes. The numbers above can be tweaked easily to balance, and would decrease/increase with levels.

This is exactly what Sev said and he's right, but again, I think there is one dude on their team that just really really really enjoys playing casters and doesn't want any legitimate balancing done on them.

So nothings going to happen basically.

I am under the impression hurting SP efficiency for casters is what Sev is thinking about doing with the reaper update. He made some comment on one of Cord's streams that he believes what is giving casters such a huge advantage in higher reapers is the sheer amount of reaper bonuses they get to SP (maybe also the lost soul pickups but that could be a separate thing). HOWEVER, I could be remembering his words incorrectly.

If they want to keep immunity strip as is they need to adjust a few classes.

Druid:
1. Get rid of save portion of mantle of icy soul
2. Double cooldown on ice flowers
3. Tsunami 20s cooldown

I am less sure on the blightcaster stuff, probably OP and could also use toning down.

But it is these kind of changes that are needed to bring Druid more in line.

Sorcerer:
1. Get rid of healing from Reborn in Fire
2. Get rid of shorter cool downs for Sorcerer

Alchemist:
1. 15s cool down on multi-vial

Those type of changes are what we should be doing not nerfing "casters"

Look as much as I enjoy Throwing Sleet Storm and D-Door on caster at end chests, nerfing casters is not what is needed.

It's New Reapers in ether R5-up in currant reaper scaling progression or if they want to give us R11-going forward.

Reapers that target Casters and Ranged as well as, removing all self-healing 100% in R5-up in currant reaper scaling progression or if they want to give us R11-going forward.

They need to replicate the builds and player prowess on internal servers and tweek it accordingly, opposed to giving us DOOM-REAPERS that look for the nearest D-DOOR out of combat with their Dreaded enemy Casters and Ranged Players.

[Bjond]

1. Get rid of mobs healing from player damage spells
2. Change immunity to 50% absorption (so fire "immune" take half damage from fire)

Nerfing various aspects of casters isn't the real issue, though I strongly agree about immunities in general -- they have no place in an MMO. It should be scaled absorbs. Instead of a blanket 50%, I'd make it the same as for player gear at that level. Flavor without the ridiculous binary boom or bust.

I am under the impression hurting SP efficiency for casters is what Sev is thinking

Ugh, does he even play? SP should be eliminated or efficiency hugely increased. It's not fun to be so resource strapped you have to watch others play. It's a game. Casters need to be able to do things (plural, not one carefully conserved AE spell) that make a difference in each and every fight in an MMO. This isn't PnP where you carry your Wizard around for 20 sessions just so it can finally unleash hell on the BBG.

In PnP, the fun lies far more in the RP than the combat. No one much cares if the wizard is being carried though most combat because that's not the focus. In an MMO or CRPG, it's all and only combat. The whole "per day" mechanic of D&D is quite literally anathema to MMO or CRPG fun.

---

The problem is far more fundamental than individual class features. When I play as caster or ranged there is almost zero danger. Group burst damage is so strong that you can just march through dropping huge AE bombs on things that can't fight back because you're doing it without risk of being damaged in return.

By the time packs of mobs have finished their "wakeup and start fighting" animations, they're already dead. Champs and RNG will usually leave a few stragglers for melee to pickup, but that's about it. The only whines about "don't kill the Vengeance!" are from melee (BTW, if you want to be kind to your melee, CHARM Vengeance -- it protects them from early AE death).

Yes, there are some few (very VERY few) caster players that have hit the ceiling on caster power and can solo or nearly solo R8+. They are too few to matter and if you know what they've done to reach that point, they rather deserve it. It's the zerg-ball of 1st Life blasters that threatens to trivialize reaper. It's not yet become standard/meta, but it has become very common.

Want to make reaper more fun and need more teamwork from a varied class mix? Add (a LOT of) risk to the caster zerg-ball.

[Kotharsjach]

After thinking about it there's a couple of things they could do to balance casters.

#1 - change immunity stripping to immunity debuff 10% per stack max stack10, and double the duration.
#2 - global spell cooldown increase of 5% per skull. In other words, if your casting at 1/second on elite, your casting at 1/1.5 seconds on r10. This to me is a much more effective solution than efficiency reduction.
#3 - recalculating dcs from a 1d20 roll. Mobs will often have +50 in one save and +100 in a different save. And player dcs can change by 95% effectiveness to 5% effectiveness with a single piece of gear. For those who argue that it's not dnd without a d20 roll, we are dealing with inflated numbers which invalidate the element of chance with a dice roll. Something like 2d20, or 3d20 would make the save spread more relevant. Note this would also make the game alot harder for players when they are failing saves more often without investing in immunities or very high saves.

Melees could use an additional layer of defense, but I'm not really sure what that would look like or how it would be made melee specific, tbh I'm more in favor of a risk/reward approach. As for how their combat effectiveness could be increased.

#1 - Add melee power/half range power to the following stats. Deadly, accuracy, seeker, deception. Ie, if you have 20 accuracy, 10 deadly, 10 seeker, 10 deception, you'll get 50 melee power and 25 ranged power. Part of the divide between casters and melee is that spell power scales so much better and is easily acquirable.

#2 - reduce cooldowns on all melee active attacks by 33%. 30 seconds on a melee ability cd is just absurd, tbh I feel like melee cds could probably be cut in half outright, but 33% would more of a moderate approach.

#3 - it's been mentioned several times mobs have a "wake up time" this is true of melee combat as well, it can be a good 3 seconds or more from the time combat starts to when a melee starts to deal damage and time is spent also transitioning between targets. Being able to turn faster would be a godsend, maybe that's already possible and I'm just not aware of it. Outside of that longer weapon reach and a flat buff to melee attack speed might be enough to put them back on the map.

#4 - Make all melee cc outside of trips work on reapers. The fact that 90% of melee cc just flat does not work on a stock mob in every single quest on higher difficulties is just a slap in the face.

This ignores the problem that damage in general seems to be outpacing the content. It doesn't really matter how much the damage the enemies do or what special abilities they have when everything dies in seconds, even on R10. It's at the point where I've noticed that I'm reluctant to try to cc or debuff, because it really doesn't matter. I mostly see player toughness and no one wanting to tank/heal/CC being the central issue with trying to bump skulls, rarely is it that there isn't enough dps. This to me is an issue that should be addressed through content/difficulty modes.

[misterski]

[QUOTE=Raithe;6572268]Agreed. Also reduce ranged DPS. This was the way it was early in DDO's history, which made it a fairly basic hack-n-slash but at least far better than what exists today.

Ignoring the much larger picture of what a D&D game should involve, making dungeons better for new players and old involves keeping them difficult to complete while maintaining the ease of avoiding death. Mobs do not need to be ultra deadly in every single encounter, and whether to bypass an encounter completely should be a consequential decision in a dungeon. There are at least 3 things I would add as notations to the discussions of this thread:

1) The name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons, not Reapers & Reincarnations. Nothing the developers decide in the way of design should be based on a mode of the game that is crudely scaling damage in both directions, saves and DCs up, healing down, and bestowing enhancement points that don't apply to other modes of the game. Reaper mode needs to go away completely for this game to deliver on group play. If they want, they can bring some of the decent design points of reaper mode into the standard game modes.


1) So what? This is an MMO not a table top session. It's not even a table top session done over video chat. This game has diverged far from the 3.5 ruleset. The loot system isn't D&D, PRR/MRR isn't D&D, to hit is percentage based rather than d20 based, etc. There's no point in arguing otherwise. This game may be D&D themed but it is its own thing.

[LiveFast]

Why not give some vampirism to every melees? That applies on it and doesnt get nerfed on reaper. It would considerably lessen the 'burden' on the party without any nerfs to casters and ranged for balance. Some kind of movement penalty when running backward sounds nice too.

[Oxarhamar]

Why not give some vampirism to every melees? That applies on it and doesnt get nerfed on reaper. It would considerably lessen the 'burden' on the party without any nerfs to casters and ranged for balance. Some kind of movement penalty when running backward sounds nice too.

This gets brought up every now & again

Nerfing ranged & casters doesn’t fix melee though

[Stradivarius]

This gets brought up every now & again

Nerfing ranged & casters doesn’t fix melee though

What if we're not trying to "fix" melee though. What if we're just trying to balance casters back to where they should be?

[Fisto_Mk_I]

What if we're just trying to balance casters back to where they should be?

Did you decide they should be there? What if I disagree? What if all the players playing casters disagree, too? Why did you even decide that you were right?

[Stradivarius]

Did you decide they should be there? What if I disagree? What if all the players playing casters disagree, too? Why did you even decide that you were right?

Beeeeecause they're soloing R10's like it was a daily and nobody else can't.