A Noob's Guide to Fighting Styles

[Bacab]

So I am a returning player...and I have always played more of support/hybrid classes or casters.

Recently, I have been trying new builds and learning about melee mechanics and I have a few observations:

It appears on high stat melees, especially with a battle trance (KtA, Falconry, Divine Might)...it appears that Two Hand Fighting is way stronger than Single Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Fighting. At least on groups of monsters. I have a feeling on single targets (like bosses) maybe TWF pulls ahead with more extra effects?

I also think Precision may end up out-pacing Power Attack unless the build (Class/Race) has lots of bonus Power Attack enhancements? Such as Warforged or Half-Orc and Barbarian?

I am sure it has been written down, but it "feels" like monsters have way more fortification on higher Reaper. Also random crits on "un-crittable" monsters is nice (slimes, undead, constructs).

Also there are few nice abilities that benefit Two Hand Fighting. I stacked up "Ancient Power" 3 times which now gives me a +6 to attack BUT also gives +6 to DMG if using Two Handed Fighting (yes, this effects Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes if you have the Feats)

So some quick math with the top 3 feats of the Weaponstyle.

GTHF gives a 3x bonus on Stat to dmg and a 140% strike through (I may have misread this)
EDIT: its only 1.6 Bonus to stats for DAXE and BSword. I play melee Artificer's a lot and the Dwarven Axe/Bastard Sword builds seems to kill groups of monsters way way way faster than a Warhammer build, even with Knight's Training Worked in. Though maybe if you AoE with Rune Arm and Spells the SWF Warhammer build can pull ahead? I enjoy both playstyles...

GSWF gives 1.5x Stat bonus to dmg and a 30% speed increase (though it appears to be more like 43% speed increase if wiki is correct?)

GTWF is like you attack 1.8 times as fast because you get 80% off hand attack (and the build that use TWF probably have enhancements to push this up), but it appears you don't get Stat bonuses?

I don't have experience with the Shield Combat and stuff. I have seen people do really well with Vangaurd. But I have also seen posts on here (that are old) that claim there is a shield speed cap. Unsure if its the animation or some sort of math cap?

Do these observations look correct?

[FuzzyDuck81]

Pretty much got it i think. 2wf in particular has an advantage in more proc effects so against single targets yeah, it's a very effective slice & dice approach, particularly if you have sneak attack dice & imbues etc.

Yep, you're limited to 1 shield bash per second due to engine/animation limitations & therefore is generally the weakest, unless you have access to vanguard which compensates for that lower dps by granting more defences & having the shield bashes become really, really powerful - stunning shield has a high DC potential for crowd control & missile shield gives a great layer of automatic defense too.

[C-Dog]

Do these observations look correct?

Sorry, can't hear you from way over here.

Pewpewpew!

[droid327]

THF: Pro - full time aoe and high stat mult so good all around damage. Con - no off hand, fewer procs on single target

SWF: Pro - speed and damage bonuses, additional feat options, good weapon selection, compatible with the most trees, easiest reqs. Con - limited aoe

TWF: Pro - highest single target damage with maximal investment, fastest hit rate for proc effects. Con - most MAD, almost no aoe

[Fisto_Mk_I]

Sorry, can't hear you from way over here.

Pewpewpew!

Best answer in whole thread.

[Bacab]

THF: Pro - full time aoe and high stat mult so good all around damage. Con - no off hand, fewer procs on single target

SWF: Pro - speed and damage bonuses, additional feat options, good weapon selection, compatible with the most trees, easiest reqs. Con - limited aoe

TWF: Pro - highest single target damage with maximal investment, fastest hit rate for proc effects. Con - most MAD, almost no aoe

As far as the TWF having no AoE...would a Tempest using Dance of Death and Spamming Whirlwind Attack have decent AoE?

[Bacab]

Sorry, can't hear you from way over here.

Pewpewpew!

I think in a few weeks/months I am gonna make another thread...

"A Noob's Guide to Ranged Styles"

Though I would LOVE for someone to give the pros/cons of Bow, Cross Bow (Mechanic and Inquisitive), Repeaters, Ninja Stars and if Dart from Alchemist could ever be good?

Also, I always wanted to try a Vistani Knife Throwing build. Unsure if it would work or be a trap.

[Redtalktree]

I think in a few weeks/months I am gonna make another thread...

"A Noob's Guide to Ranged Styles"

Though I would LOVE for someone to give the pros/cons of Bow, Cross Bow (Mechanic and Inquisitive), Repeaters, Ninja Stars and if Dart from Alchemist could ever be good?

Also, I always wanted to try a Vistani Knife Throwing build. Unsure if it would work or be a trap.

As a vistani thrower? you need alcmy lvls for the Oped imbues, 12 achmy, 6 ranger and 2 rogue will oped as any, 1-20 o.k ish but you need epic noxious Fang with imbue filigrees (reverbx2,longshadowx3,electro or snake bite x3 (snake is better due to poison) and a few others, which gets you 17 imbue die @20 and thats not trying (3 more imbues @23 in draconic, 3 more in profane experiment@29 might have missed out a few others somewhere.

[C-Dog]

Quick thumbnail sketch...

(And this does NOT fully address Epic or end-game potential; I don't spend a lot of time there, so I'll leave that to others who can better speak to that from experience.)

the pros/cons of Bow, Cross Bow (Mechanic and Inquisitive), Repeaters, Ninja Stars and if Dart from Alchemist could ever be good?

All so very different, altho' playstyle is the same - try to find a safe spot to stand (to boost Archer's Focus), deal death tactically to specific targets, kite backwards if truly threatened.

The main* (non-casting**) AoE relies on IPS, which is straight-line and slightly lower Ranged Power, meaning a) you have to toggle it selectively, and b) long narrow halls are your (only) friend. Due to these two limitations, many modern builds ignore IPS, at least until Epics (when the loss in Ranged Power can be negated via Epic Destiny). IPS can also be useful to focus on a boss and run in wide circles around that target, letting trash "get in the way" and slowly whittle that down just by accident.

* Adding some heavy Tendon Slice helps this a lot, especially on a high-volume-of-fire weapon style (i.e. repeaters, inquis).

(** Alchemists bring a new element to AoE, see below)


Inquisitive (using simple Crossbows, dual-wielding) is still quite popular, but is not the strongest for low heroics (see next). Some builds take advantage of repeaters until the start of mid-heroics (L7 or so), when RatCatcher enters the picture (along with some strong higher-tier enhancements), but many players just go Inquis from the start, and shrug at the lower DPS since early heroics are soft as a rule.

Repeaters are strong even by themselves at low level, and any decent repeater, even without any addition of "stat to damage", can cover Level 1-4 content just by itself. What this means is that a tricky build can wait until Level 7 (or a bit more) to get its poup in a group and trigger "X-Stat to Damage" (or abandon repeaters and swap to Inquisitive). Add a stat to damage (or Kensai +8/+8 damage boost) for real boss-cleaning power. And you can get into "Endless Fusilade" type builds, which just spew damage downrange. Harper is a popular tree here and perhaps the default, allowing Int to Damage before Level 4 (12 AP), but Wisdom (via Falconry) and Charisma (Feydark Illusionist) are also valid alternatives. Artificer, pure or splashed, is also the obvious choice for a number of reason, tho' there are strong and surprising work-around builds.

Not sure what the final consensus is on bow since the overhaul - certainly better than it had been. Reports and responses, and new builds, say to me it's now competitive, if still not FotM level. Ranger and AA builds are the obvious, but a variety of counter-intuitive "X-archer" solutions have arisen, including Bardchers, Monk-chers, and Wizard-archers/casters, among others.

Great Crossbow (aka GXB) may be the current mule among this bunch, tho' only by comparison. GXB almost exclusively implies a Rogue Mechanic (pure or w/ splashes). GXB is still strong, and ample to get to 20 and even 30, just not when measured against a good Inquis or Repeater build. But Rogue 6 gives Int-to-Damage, which solves the F2P "... but I don't own Harper tree yet" dilemma, and a GXB comes with an innate "Knock Down on Vorpal" effect, which is its own CC. Turns pew-pew-pew into BLAM!... BLAM!...

Throwers, including stars, tend to be back-loaded, i.e. they start (very!) slow and can suffer from early Heroic weakness. This is due to often needing many different parts to form the necessary synergy for them to shine, a need to "reach critical mass" if you will, usually starting to hit their stride not until mid-late Heroics (10-15 or so). Thus many throwing builds are Iconic, where the build can start at level 15 and have all the parts in place from the start. And, perhaps more than other ranged builds, they can be heavily gear dependent to be "really good". But into late Heroics, and certainly into Epics and to end game, they can potentially be one of the stronger ranged builds.

I haven't personally run Alchemist, but have run with many, and whether pure or multi'ed they seem to have the potential to combine strong ranged attacks (inquisitive or thrown) with their quirky arcing AoE splash casting. Some strong Alche's out there, no doubt.


(Edit: pew pew )

[Zites]

So I am a returning player...and I have always played more of support/hybrid classes or casters.

Recently, I have been trying new builds and learning about melee mechanics and I have a few observations:

It appears on high stat melees, especially with a battle trance (KtA, Falconry, Divine Might)...it appears that Two Hand Fighting is way stronger than Single Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Fighting. At least on groups of monsters. I have a feeling on single targets (like bosses) maybe TWF pulls ahead with more extra effects?

I also think Precision may end up out-pacing Power Attack unless the build (Class/Race) has lots of bonus Power Attack enhancements? Such as Warforged or Half-Orc and Barbarian?

I am sure it has been written down, but it "feels" like monsters have way more fortification on higher Reaper. Also random crits on "un-crittable" monsters is nice (slimes, undead, constructs).

Also there are few nice abilities that benefit Two Hand Fighting. I stacked up "Ancient Power" 3 times which now gives me a +6 to attack BUT also gives +6 to DMG if using Two Handed Fighting (yes, this effects Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes if you have the Feats)

So some quick math with the top 3 feats of the Weaponstyle.

GTHF gives a 3x bonus on Stat to dmg and a 140% strike through (I may have misread this)
EDIT: its only 1.6 Bonus to stats for DAXE and BSword. I play melee Artificer's a lot and the Dwarven Axe/Bastard Sword builds seems to kill groups of monsters way way way faster than a Warhammer build, even with Knight's Training Worked in. Though maybe if you AoE with Rune Arm and Spells the SWF Warhammer build can pull ahead? I enjoy both playstyles...

GSWF gives 1.5x Stat bonus to dmg and a 30% speed increase (though it appears to be more like 43% speed increase if wiki is correct?)

GTWF is like you attack 1.8 times as fast because you get 80% off hand attack (and the build that use TWF probably have enhancements to push this up), but it appears you don't get Stat bonuses?

I don't have experience with the Shield Combat and stuff. I have seen people do really well with Vangaurd. But I have also seen posts on here (that are old) that claim there is a shield speed cap. Unsure if its the animation or some sort of math cap?

Do these observations look correct?

Wrong This false math dnt mean a thing unless your fighting non boss Lamania Kobolds that dnt hit back.

1. TWF Is still King because it kills single targets the fastest and thats what matters in high skulls for melee, the casters and range kill the mobs way before strikethrough hits them.

2. SWF is the Queen or 2nd best, Just build it right and you will see.

3. THF is the best looking by a mile and that's all its good for in high skulls.
In low reaper it just ok, but do to hitting so many mobs at a time, its very hard to stay alive in high skulls pulling so much aggro,, unless your married to a true dedicated healer that's not spamming atk spells and doing melee poorly, when they should be healing you.

If you have been playing high skulls and push raids you will not see, any THF's, except maybe Cetus if he still plays. And of course stick fighting kitties abusing dodge and undisclosed things.

[Bacab]

Wrong This false math dnt mean a thing unless your fighting non boss Lamania Kobolds that dnt hit back.

1. TWF Is still King because it kills single targets the fastest and thats what matters in high skulls for melee, the casters and range kill the mobs way before strikethrough hits them.

2. SWF is the Queen or 2nd best, Just build it right and you will see.

3. THF is the best looking by a mile and that's all its good for in high skulls.
In low reaper it just ok, but do to hitting so many mobs at a time, its very hard to stay alive in high skulls pulling so much aggro,, unless your married to a true dedicated healer that's not spamming atk spells and doing melee poorly, when they should be healing you.

If you have been playing high skulls and push raids you will not see, any THF's, except maybe Cetus if he still plays. And of course stick fighting kitties abusing dodge and undisclosed things.

I was more/less planning for Heroic and Elite and Low Skulls.

I have done R8-10, but when I do, I am usually the Cleric/FVS or Bard or Arty (and I just buff and CC and Heal, I don't focus on melee because I am not good enough at that yet).

Could you give a good SWF build? I have done SWF with Warhammers on Arty (this was before Knights Training to give you an idea when I did it). And OFC I have done Swashchanter SWF (freezy build leveraging Swashbuckling, using special crit weapons to cap)

I have to agree, the big 2 Handed fighters usually get splatted on high reaper, unless the CC is on absolute lockdown.

My latest enjoyment has been AoE melee to cap that can convert to to support at level cap for high reaper.
Such as :
WF FVS (I smack stuff to cap and when solo, but change my playstyle to caster stick and shield at R8-10).
WF Arty that I smack stuff otw to cap, but in R8-10 I swap to tossing potions, casting deadly weapons and using converter to Recon the main aggro magnet.
Currently doing a pure 2 Hander Warchanter Bard that has been a breeze for leveling in Low Reaper solo and have done some harder skulls while leveling in groups...Warchanter songs are still really nice.

I have been looking at making a Swashbuckler that focuses on debuffing a target while the "real DPS" put it down. Swashbuckler can get Improved Destruction as an enchancement. Curious if that and other debuffs would be worth it and just focus on being the second melee to engage in high skull.

[C-Dog]

... Curious if that and other debuffs would be worth it and just focus on being the second melee to engage in high skull.

If you have a static group, or even a reliable Guild, where you can count on that "real DPS" showing up, then yes; but if it's just PUGing, then you're relying on luck of the draw for that plan to work out. :/

[Bacab]

If you have a static group, or even a reliable Guild, where you can count on that "real DPS" showing up, then yes; but if it's just PUGing, then you're relying on luck of the draw for that plan to work out. :/

Yeah, I have farmed a TON of RXP at cap on a Healbot Cleric, but when no one was around...it was horrible...usually led to me TRing a little earlier than I wanted to.

Its why I have enjoyed some "Hybrid" builds that can solo OK, and party up nicely and keep being fluid in how I play them.

My 2HF Warchanter has been great so far, though haven't made it to cap (level 30...I hit 20 last night) yet.

My next life, I plan on doing a 20 Pure Cleric using Falconry and Radiant Servant and going Dwarf (need 1 more Dwarf life). I will basically be using Axel's melee cleric, but using Carnifex until SoS and then ESoS then Blackrazor. Thinking at cap, when doing some raiding and RXPing, I can sit in back and focus on heals etc...

Though I am on Ghallanda atm, so haven't seen many raid LFMs up lately

[droid327]

As far as the TWF having no AoE...would a Tempest using Dance of Death and Spamming Whirlwind Attack have decent AoE?

Tempest was the reason I said "almost" no AOE. DoD does a great job turning TWF into AOE, but the opportunity cost is so high (43 AP, T5s, still having to pick up Crit Range in DWS or somewhere else, and realistically, having to find that last 10% Offhand Strike in either Core 5 or VKF) that its difficult to fold much else into that template - there's only a few degrees of freedom in a Tempest to actually make it anything but just a Tempest.

As for WWA (and also all Cleave type attacks)...the problem there is it only uses your mainhand weapon, it doesnt proc offhand hits. And since TWF gets no stat multiplier bonuses or attack speed bonuses, a single mainhand attack is pretty weak - WWA with SWF is going to be faster and punchier, and WWA with THF is going to hit like a truck. Plus, 1 AOE attack every 5 secs isnt really going to do THAT much AOE damage, most of your overall DPS is still going to be single-target. I think only Fists can really build around it because they get multiple WWAs to use in parallel (though I think a SWF dagger Fist is still better off overall than TWF)

[Bacab]

Tempest was the reason I said "almost" no AOE. DoD does a great job turning TWF into AOE, but the opportunity cost is so high (43 AP, T5s, still having to pick up Crit Range in DWS or somewhere else, and realistically, having to find that last 10% Offhand Strike in either Core 5 or VKF) that its difficult to fold much else into that template - there's only a few degrees of freedom in a Tempest to actually make it anything but just a Tempest.

As for WWA (and also all Cleave type attacks)...the problem there is it only uses your mainhand weapon, it doesnt proc offhand hits. And since TWF gets no stat multiplier bonuses or attack speed bonuses, a single mainhand attack is pretty weak - WWA with SWF is going to be faster and punchier, and WWA with THF is going to hit like a truck. Plus, 1 AOE attack every 5 secs isnt really going to do THAT much AOE damage, most of your overall DPS is still going to be single-target. I think only Fists can really build around it because they get multiple WWAs to use in parallel (though I think a SWF dagger Fist is still better off overall than TWF)

Oh wow, I didn't know WWA didn't also do off hand attacks.

I had a MNK buddy who swore by it, though maybe Handwraps work different?

I have run WWA builds before when I did my Fighter lives, but I was using a 2Handed Weapon (so my recollection of it was definitely different from what it ACTUALLY is).

Also, by SWF Dagger Fist...is that a Sacred Fist using Vistani and SWF?

[Saekee]

Oh wow, I didn't know WWA didn't also do off hand attacks.

I had a MNK buddy who swore by it, though maybe Handwraps work different?

I have run WWA builds before when I did my Fighter lives, but I was using a 2Handed Weapon (so my recollection of it was definitely different from what it ACTUALLY is).

Also, by SWF Dagger Fist...is that a Sacred Fist using Vistani and SWF?

I think handwraps hit 2x with WWA. Anyway that is what happens with the SF faux copy of it whereas the same SF attack hits once when using swords

[C-Dog]

Oh wow, I didn't know WWA didn't also do off hand attacks.

World Wrestling Association? They allow everything (except the dreaded figure-4 leg-lock, which is illegal in 7 states!*)

(* altho' they say that everywhere, and never say which 7 states. )

[droid327]

I think handwraps hit 2x with WWA. Anyway that is what happens with the SF faux copy of it whereas the same SF attack hits once when using swords

Everything hits 2x with WWA now, which means TWF gets the least value out of it

Both my feat and enhancement WWA on my Fist double tap with my single dagger, so I dont know whats making you think it only hits once with swords

Also, by SWF Dagger Fist...is that a Sacred Fist using Vistani and SWF?

Yeah, I like it 18/1 Monk/1 FvS for stances and Divine Might and spin to win

[Marshal_Lannes]

People will debate the numbers until the end of time so I'm just going to focus on how the combat styles "feel".

THF - is super sexy and seductive. Once you rip off 50K, 70K, 100K hits with Adrenaline in Fury you get hooked. Strikethrough crushes mobs in R6-8 Reaper where most of your groups play.

SWF - feels like you're listening to a podcast in x2 speed, except your killing stuff. Overall fun animations and speed.

TWF - still has the worse animations in the game. Does allow more flexibility with item sets since you have an extra weapon you can use for an off-hand proc or as part of say an IoD set.

S&B - mostly restricted to Vanguard Fighters and Paladins or Bard mixes. Feels like SWF if done well with better defenses. Plus you're bashing enemies with a giant slab of steel or wood and that feels good.

Then, at some point, you run R10 Tempest Spine and you just do what CDog said, grab a bow, and start shooting because you don't want to get hit. At all.

[Saekee]

Everything hits 2x with WWA now, which means TWF gets the least value out of it

Both my feat and enhancement WWA on my Fist double tap with my single dagger, so I dont know whats making you think it only hits once with swords



Yeah, I like it 18/1 Monk/1 FvS for stances and Divine Might and spin to win

hey CDog when I use it with short swords I only see one floaty number over mob heads vs 2 with wraps. This is not hard data by any means and deeply limited by the rig and settings