U58 Preview 3: Dark Hunter Ranger Archetype

[KookieKobold]

Dark Hunter is a new Ranger Archetype with themes of Assassination, sneaking, hunting, trapmaking, scavenging, and throwing weapons.

Changes from last preview are listed in Blue!

Feats and Features This Archetype Gets (that base Ranger does not):

• Trapfinding (1)
• Trap Making (3)
• Trap Sense +1 (3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) (same as rogue and barbarian)
• Sneak Attack 1d6 (1, 5, 10, 15, 20) (every 5 levels instead of every 2, means they get half of the sneak attack dice as Rogue does, 5d6 instead of 10d6)
• Medium Armor Proficiency (1)

Feats and Features This Archetype DOES NOT Get (that base Ranger does):

• All Favored Enemy feats that are not: Vermin, Elf, Aberration, Animal, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid
• Evasion

Spellbook:
While Base Ranger has Cure spells, Dark Hunter does not - Instead, they get Curative Admixture spells. Otherwise, their spellbook resembles the Ranger one.


Skills:
Dark Hunters get Open Lock and Disable Device as Class Skills, and otherwise have the same Class Skills as Base Rangers.

Past Life:
Dark Hunter: +1 Sneak Attack and +1 Sneak Attack Damage per stack of this Past Life.

Enhancement Trees:
This archetype gets the new Dark Hunter tree in place of Arcane Archer! It retains the Tempest and Deepwood Stalker Trees.

• (It's worth noting that if you have another source of the Arcane Archer, such as the Elven version, you may use that tree with the Dark Hunter Archetype).

Dark Hunter Enhancement Tree:

• Core 1: Underdark Stalker: You gain +5 HP, +1 reflex saving throw, and -1 Medium Armor Check Penalty per core ability you take in this tree.
• Core 3: Smoke Trap: Throw a smoke grenade at a target, if they fail a fortitude save (DC20 + Dex Mod + Assassinate + Trap DCs) they lose their immunity to sneak attack and 25% of their fortification for 25 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)
• Core 6: Underdark Defenses: While wearing Medium Armor, gain Exceptional bonus to Armor Class +10% and you take 50% trap damage.
• Core 12: Escape Through the Dark: Whenever you become Invisible, you gain a Primal bonus to Sneak Attack Dice equal to your Wilderness Lore. This lingers for 5 seconds after you become Invisible and may only trigger once every 60 seconds.
• Core 18: Death Stalker: +25% Sneak Speed. While you are sneaking, you gain a 5% enhancement damage bonus to your melee, ranged and unarmed attacks. This lingers for 10 seconds after you leave Stealth. (note: this does not stack with the Relentless Fury item affix)
• Core 20: Hunter in the Dark: +2 Dex, Int, and Wis. +10% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. +10 Melee and Ranged Power. Your Cull the Weak bonus now applies against enemies that are Snared or Entangled.

Tier 1:

• Dark Wolf: You gain a Black Wolf as an Animal Companion. Each rank also gives you +5 HP.
• Wolf Hide: (req Dark Wolf) +2/4/6 PRR
• Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks
• Bleed the Weak: Imbue Toggle: 1d8 Bleed damage, scaling with Melee Power. Increases to 1d10 vs enemies below 50%, and increases again to 1d12 against enemies below 25%. While toggled on, your Dark Wolf also uses this Imbue using the same number of Imbue Dice you have.
• Awareness: +1/2/3 Listen, Search, Spot, and to-hit.

Tier 2:

• Furor of the Hunter: Your Black Wolf gains +3/6/10 to hit and damage, +2/4/6 Primal Bonus to AC, and its attacks bypass 10%/20%/50% of enemy Fortification.
• Assassin's Training: +1/2/3 Assassinate DCs.
• Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks
• Improved Traps: +1/2/3 to the save DC's of Alchemical Trap Attacks and Magical Traps. Elemental Traps that you place now have a DC equal to 65/80/100% of your Disable Device Skill instead of 50%. (copied from Mechanic)
• Action Boost: Skills or Sprint

Tier 3:

• Primal Energy: Your Black Wolf gains a +2/+4/+6 Primal Bonus to all Ability Scores. You gain +1/2/3 Imbue Dice.
• Snap Trap: Toss a snapping trap at the targeted enemy. If they don't make a Fortitude Save (DC 20 + Dex Mod + Assassinate + Bonus Trap DCs) they are rooted in place by the trap's jaws.
• Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks
• Use Magical Device: +1/2/3 Use Magic Device
• Ability Score: Multiselector: +1 Dex / Int / Wis

Tier 4:

• Lupine Instincts: Your Black Wolf inherits your Search and Spot scores, and will automatically find traps and secret doors for you assuming you meet the statistical threshold. You gain a bonus to Search and Disable Device equal to your Wilderness Lore feats.
• Slayer in the Dark: Killing an enemy grants you a +5 Morale bonus to Melee and Ranged Power, stacking 2/3/4 times. Duration: 20s
• Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks
• Smoke Bomb: Smoke Bomb SLA
• Ability Score: Multiselector: +1 Dex / Int / Wis

Tier 5:

• Ferocity: You gain +10% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. Your Black Wolf gains 25% Attack Speed and 100% Fortification Bypass.
• Stone's Hue: Your Camouflage spell also grants the target +1 PRR per 2 caster levels, max caster level 20.
• Death Attack: Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Attempt to Assassinate a foe before you. If it is an enemy type that a Dark Hunter could have as a Favored Enemy (Vermin, Elves, Aberrations, Animals, Humanoids, and Monstrous Humanoids) then you attempt to snuff out its life, killing it instantly unless it makes a Fortitude save vs Death (DC 10 + Ranger Level + highest of Dex, Int, or Wis Mod + Assassinate bonuses). If it is a different enemy type, or it makes its Fortitude save, you instead mortally wound it, lowering its Physical and Magical Resistance rating by 10 and dealing an extra 1d20 Bleed damage per character level.
• Blade Specialization: Multiselector: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier or Threat Range with your weapons.
• Dark Sight: You have True Seeing and +25% Competence bonus to HP. You may also toggle this on to gain Underdark Sight while within the Underdark.

Known Issues:

• N/A

[Seph1roth5]

Did we ever get an answer to if cull the weak was bleed the weak? And if it is, what bonus is applied? the one for <50% or <25% ?

[Deivonte]

Did we ever get an answer to if cull the weak was bleed the weak? And if it is, what bonus is applied? the one for <50% or <25% ?

The description in-game is clear but not the notes.

[Pretty_Good_Old_One]

So far, I am really enjoying how this class plays. I spent a little time at level 4 and level 12, just to get a feel of it for leveling. At level 4, the 3 bonus imbue dice for the pet wolf, along with the other enhancements for the pet, make it very strong (along with augmented summoning). Walk into Searing Heights at level 4 in stealh and watch it kill groups of 3 level 6 monsters easily. All you need to do is heal it after battles.

I know, it is just level 4, but it gives a completely different way to play low to mid level rangers. I get all the issues with the pet at level cap, but adding in the imbue dice is really nice at lower levels.

At level 12, I wanted to try the new opportune moment. Smoke bomb works fine for turning it on, and at level 12, with only points in Dark Hunter, I got 19d6 sneak attack. It only lasts 5 seconds, but can be combined with the death attack. So against a non favored enemy, it is 19d6 sneak +12d20 bleed, + another 4d(8-12) bleed. Maybe not that great at cap, but it felt pretty good for level 12. Death attack also works with strikethough, so the starter axe was hitting two enemies at once for 250+ per hit. Not earth shattering, but nice for something you can do fairly often.

Overall, I like the feel of it as being different from rogue, artificer, and other rangers. I get the concern about losing evasion, but I think going in a different direction here helps. It is a ranger with a pet and all the rogue skills. It seems like there should be something taken away to even things out. It still gets all the free bonus feats, spells, and the higher HP. There are also already a couple variants of ranger in D&D that have no evasion for the ranger, so this is not completely out of left field. This is kind of a commando character.

Issues: I hate to call attention to this, but opportune moment may be giving the bonus too often. My character sheet was at least showing 19d6 sneak attack dice more often than once every 60 seconds.

Bleed damage may sometimes not be using all the imbue dice. My wolf seemed to do 4d8 bleed damage all the time, but I had a lot of attacks that seemed to be low (8-10) damage - so I wasn]t sure it was always firing or using enough dice against things like kobolds. This was when both my character and my wolf were attacking the same target.


Other: I love all the suggestions everyone has, and there are some great ideas out there. That said, and apologies for sounding preachy, I do think there is a big difference between the developers not listening and the developers deciding not to use an idea. Even when 4 or 5 people all chime in that they love a change, the developers may have a completely different idea of how this character is supposed to play, and there may even be another archtype coming that uses the ideas. Over the last build I see a lot of changes and bug fixes that people asked for that were implemented for Dark Hunter. When so many changes are being implemented, it doesn't seem that fair or conducive to collaboration to claim they are ignoring everything here. The fact that they don't agree on things like evasion doesn't mean they aren't listening. Sometimes people have different visions for how something should play.

OK, end preaching...

Last comment. Can we officially change the archtype name. Dark Hunter is ok, but this would be so much better as... Night Ranger.

[spifflove]

Other: I love all the suggestions everyone has, and there are some great ideas out there. That said, and apologies for sounding preachy, I do think there is a big difference between the developers not listening and the developers deciding not to use an idea. Even when 4 or 5 people all chime in that they love a change, the developers may have a completely different idea of how this character is supposed to play, and there may even be another archtype coming that uses the ideas. Over the last build I see a lot of changes and bug fixes that people asked for that were implemented for Dark Hunter. When so many changes are being implemented, it doesn't seem that fair or conducive to collaboration to claim they are ignoring everything here. The fact that they don't agree on things like evasion doesn't mean they aren't listening. Sometimes people have different visions for how something should play.

Instead of a logical balance like restriction to rogue weapons they created their own logic and once a decision was made they clung to it not only in the face of a hostile crowd but in the face of the irreparable conflict with the tempest tree. That is tone deaf.

[Pretty_Good_Old_One]

How many people are in this hostile crowd? There are definitely a few who like the archetype, and the total number who don't like losing evasion seems a little larger, but how many total people actually said they thought it was a big mistake to take out evasion. I don't think the devs should change their design every time 5-10 people disagree on the internet. Sometimes they do, and other times they have a different plan.

On a side note: I don't think limiting things to rogue weapons is much of a limit.
If the main concern is the loss of enhancements that use light armor, adding in a higher level feat in the tree like Sacred Fist, which allows the ranger to count as wearing light armor for Tempest and DWS feats might help. But again, I really am not seeing a problem with the power level of the Dark Hunter not having evasion. There are ways to get it, and part of the whole point of archetypes is they are supposed to be more different than just a new enhancement tree. I get that people got very excited at a ranger who traps, and are now frustrated that some builds they wanted to make don't work - but the disagreement seems more over what the overall concept of the archetype is, not about balance.

If the idea was to focus on medium armor, the archetype could just as easily have an enhancement that lets evasion work with medium armor, but if that isn't want the designer envisioned the archetype as being, I'm not sure he is tone deaf just for not changing this character to match what some people hoped it would be... especially when a new rogue or artificer may soon fill that role anyway. At least for leveling, it seems very playable as is: a stealthy, medium armored trapper, that can sneak attack like crazy under the right conditions. Combining the DWS and DH trees gives a character that can hit for 22 or 23 sneak attack dice by level 12... If you want that, I don't think not having evasion or a few of the other enhancements in Tempest or DWS is an automatic deal breaker. But that is just my opinion, I can see how adding in the other enhancements and evasion would be much more powerful in a lot of builds.

[Firebreed]

Edit: This has been fixed.

(Smoke Trap & Snap Trap should also have "highest of DEX/INT/WIS" in their DC.)

[spifflove]

Druid gets everything Ranger gets nothing. Well I’m glad I’m no longer young and idealistic.

=[

[Xgya]

Any chance to have the Armor Check Penalty core also increase Max Dex Bonus?
This IS supposed to be a dex-based tree after all.

I also can't for the life of me figure out why you'd give a saving throw to the Smoke Trap. It mirrors an existing ability that doesn't have one, and already has the flaw of requiring a throw to keep them apart.

[R1ncewind]

I tried I really tried to give feedback, but I feel like in the end it wasn't just me that wasn't heard, it was 90% of the feedback.
This tree manages to end up worse than preview 2 and the T5 worse than the first preview (and second)
**** I miss Lich

Can you at least remove the light armor requirement of the Capstone of tempest plz? so we can still use this as a 3° tree for medium armor tempest build?

[Assassination]

Still really like this archetype's features. Still confused why evasion was removed from a character that is more sneaky than a regular ranger.

Still mystified at this tree that has been created. Way to triple down on this bad tree, impressive, most impressive.

[Duhboy]

What the hell is "Cull the Weak"?

[Firebreed]

What the hell is "Cull the Weak"?

We've been asking that question for 3 previews now.

[Aelonwy]

You didn't listen to feedback from preview 2, if a more rogue-like ranger looses evasion for medium armor prof that goes UNSUPPORTED for most of the class and enhancements... what is the point? Seriously, what is the point of the archetype? And what is the point of giving feedback that's being ignored?

This tree and rogue skills are not worth loosing evasion, and definitely not worth loosing most of my Favored Enemy feats in addition to loosing evasion.

As far as I can tell its worse than a traditional rogue/ranger multi-class... and if you have to multi-class the archetype to get evasion then it doesn't even have the ability to stay pure going for it.

Typically Ranger's get evasion at 9th level, right? How about instead of auto-granting evasion at 9th make the archetype DH choose between Evasion or Med Prof at 9th level like a class feat selection.

Then most of us can play this archetype like a ranger and those that want some tougher? barbarian-esque version of ranger can choose what you guys seem to prefer.

[Xgya]

You didn't listen to feedback from preview 2, if a more rogue-like ranger looses evasion for medium armor prof that goes UNSUPPORTED for most of the class and enhancements... what is the point? Seriously, what is the point of the archetype? And what is the point of giving feedback that's being ignored?

This tree and rogue skills are not worth loosing evasion, and definitely not worth loosing most of my Favored Enemy feats in addition to loosing evasion.

As far as I can tell its worse than a traditional rogue/ranger multi-class... and if you have to multi-class the archetype to get evasion then it doesn't even have the ability to stay pure going for it.

The silly part about losing Evasion is their specific Enhancement tree gives more bonuses to Reflex saves than any other heroic tree on the market. (the second best is Bombardier)
Pick a lane already!

That Ranger keeps the melee-centered tree that has 3 Enhancements specifying Light Armor. The other tree this archetype has access to mentions Light Armor in three of its own.
This one mentions Medium Armor twice. The Medium Armor Archetype has 6 abilities keyed to Light Armor, and two to Medium.
It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[lain5246]

The silly part about losing Evasion is their specific Enhancement tree gives more bonuses to Reflex saves than any other heroic tree on the market. (the second best is Bombardier)
Pick a lane already!

That Ranger keeps the melee-centered tree that has 3 Enhancements specifying Light Armor. The other tree this archetype has access to mentions Light Armor in three of its own.
This one mentions Medium Armor twice. The Medium Armor Archetype has 6 abilities keyed to Light Armor, and two to Medium.
It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Hey you will still not hate your evasion build when you take 2 rogue

[lain5246]

You didn't listen to feedback from preview 2, if a more rogue-like ranger looses evasion for medium armor prof that goes UNSUPPORTED for most of the class and enhancements... what is the point? Seriously, what is the point of the archetype? And what is the point of giving feedback that's being ignored?

This tree and rogue skills are not worth loosing evasion, and definitely not worth loosing most of my Favored Enemy feats in addition to loosing evasion.

As far as I can tell its worse than a traditional rogue/ranger multi-class... and if you have to multi-class the archetype to get evasion then it doesn't even have the ability to stay pure going for it.

Typically Ranger's get evasion at 9th level, right? How about instead of auto-granting evasion at 9th make the archetype DH choose between Evasion or Med Prof at 9th level like a class feat selection.

Then most of us can play this archetype like a ranger and those that want some tougher? barbarian-esque version of ranger can choose what you guys seem to prefer.

I would disagree. Evasion is not everything and to be honest having medium armor makes tempest more attractive. The fact that developers are making improvements to medium armor users is refreshing. Though you want to say medium armor is not supported than aside from this Archetype you have barbarian, enlighten spirit, eldrich knight, artificer, and war chanter. If you need Evasion so bad don't play this Archetype or join the furry club.

[spifflove]

If you need Evasion so bad don't play this Archetype.

Basically this unless you are a 6 split or a hair ball.

[Aelonwy]

I would disagree. Evasion is not everything and to be honest having medium armor makes tempest more attractive. The fact that developers are making improvements to medium armor users is refreshing. Though you want to say medium armor is not supported than aside from this Archetype you have barbarian, enlighten spirit, eldrich knight, artificer, and war chanter. If you need Evasion so bad don't play this Archetype or join the furry club.

I'm saying medium prof is NOT well supported in DH tree or by this class... if you need to multiclass to get support for a class/archetype feature because it is not well supported in and of itself that is an issue.

Evasion is not everything but for a sneaky, dodgy, high-ref, mostly dex focused class evasion is superior to med armor furthermore, light armor prof is far more supported by the other enhancements available to rangers including DH.

You want med? fine. I want evasion. Both should be fine, if they take the suggestion to force a class feat choice at level 9. It does NOT have to be that only one of us can be satisfied.

[Splunge]

having medium armor makes tempest more attractive

You lose 10 MP, 10 PRR, and 10 MRR from your capstone. It also kills six other enhancements the tempest and DWS trees. And you lose evasion. Doesn't seem that great to me.