U58 Preview 3: Dark Hunter Ranger Archetype

[Kermon]

I think I have to agree with the community consensus that the ranger should get a choice between evasion or medium armor proficiency.

[Pandjed]

Alright, devs seems to stick to this. I have no idea what the vision is supposed to be, but either there is one, or there won't be time and opportunity to go back to the drawing board, so let's make the best out of it, instead of whining about we think about missed opportunities. We can always say "we've told you" later and let's see if our expectations of ppl not going beyond trapper splits and PLs goes true.

After looking and trying some builds with this tree as a main, here are some thoughts:

* Not having evasion or medium armor is not a deal breaker, though artificer is easier, because it has better heals.
* Entangle mechanic is really hard to pull of yourself, as you lack the DCs and I can't imagine druids using entangle as a spell, even with some blightcaster synergy. Because whatever they can entangle, they can also tsunami to death instead. The own entangle is just way too low in DC with no way to boost it reasonably. This tree would need a +5 to entangle DC to make it work or have an entangle that works off your assassinate DC to be self-sufficient. Does it work with evard's black tentacles or the web spell?
* Snap Trap does work, but feels much worth than having a AoE option, especially with the wolf going into constant danger
* Managing web traps is super annoying with wolf, as the AI is just so stupid. Even on defensive, it sometimes charge into the enemy and parking it somewhere and thenc all it to you is super, duper, mega annoying
* Could you delete "Use Magic Device" until you find something better? I take that being a tier 3 still as an insult. Seriously, even for new trees there is no need to have all of it filled. I take an open spot over a bad enhancement!
* Death Attack is also very hard to use. You got your pet, which aggroes the enemies, which then move away, so you move to it, then it dies, then they move away once again, and then you may finally successfully using it. Being a stealth attack while having a pet is a big downturner.
* It sorely lacks any threat reduction, which would be really important for a DPS without any panic button, as elaborate parry and medium armor doesn't work with each other.


Here some ideas:
* Like some summons, make the pet hide automatically all the time it's out of combat. Don't reduce its running speed. Or make an enhancement, which gives it this strategy, using your own move silently and hide values. Like in the spot of Use Magic Device.
* Give an option for ranged combat instead death attack, as to be honest: It felt better to use a bow with this tree than a pair of melee weapons. It does synergize with the ranged part of DWS somewhat, as you double down on things. Maybe something like a beast attack, which makes the pet wolf chgarge to a target, use intimidate and get a 95% damage absorption for some seconds, followed by a diplomacy right before the absorption runs off. This would be cool and would run with the fact, that this tree has a lot of pet support (for whatever reason).
* Plase change the tooltips of the Survivalist line in DWS and Improved Dodge in Tempest, as they do function with medium armor.


I won't say it's good, but you can do some PLs with it. Primal Avatar as ED does work somewhat, mostly due to the good epic strikes and the strong mantle, in addition to having enough feats left for metamagics. I guess, casting ranger it is! Use those spellpoints for once!

But it's a disappointment, that this tree opens the can of bad pets without any changes to their mechanic, despite archetypes being advertised as a chance for devs to overhaul some older mechanics and trees. Instead, we got more druid spells. Why pushing out this archetype then (or the warlock's, which also needed much more attention)?
Devs, these aren't the first archetypes you put out. You can do one at a time. Seriously, nobody will blame you for taking time to do more, you don't need to vomit them. Make it wholesome. This (and warlock) sadly only earned a sad smiley.

[Firebreed]

I still think regular Ranger should get Cure Critical Wounds while we're at it, since this archetype gets Cure Critical Admixture.

[newmart]

Another problem with archetypes in general is the lack of EPIC DESTINES to support these ideas.

An artificer/mechanic tree focused on traps could improve this ranger 10x. Better trap placement, better trap damage, new alchemy traps and admixtures... Without epic destines many classes and archetypes end playing in same way.

[DaviMOC]

To be honest i dont miss evasion at all. Barbarians ignores traps all the time . I already see beefy melee rangers walking around so With high reflexes and reduced damage from traps(50%) I feel the hunter will do the same but better.

Besides the assassination abilities on the tree dark hunter looks to me more like the tough thug. The duregar hunting on the underdark.

Said that the tree dosent look very Archethic. Seems like the wolf and the imbue would be its mark but lets be honest Pets cant be the main feature of any class on the current DDO. As much extra dices you can get MP based imbues still fall short to the SP ones. Having pets as main feature also kills alot of multiclassing. Could make good use from Primal avatar mantles if it can manage to survive.

Blade specialization is begging for a 6lvls fighter splash or to ignore it completly and go t5 on a barbarian tree.

Assassination here I guess is less about sneaking and more about backstabing while eligible.

What I found nice is that its not fully locking on dual-wielding or ranged on a ranger tree besides not being optimal its nice to have more freedom on the class and its splashses. Hope to see such freedoms on future for rogues too.

[spifflove]

Thanks for the response, and I respect your point of view. We are talking at cross purposes. Both of us have now spoken out as what we believe are ad hominem attacks, and I don't see this going anywhere but in circles. If you don't agree with me that there is a significant component of ad hominem attacks against the devs in and around the posts I responded to, I can see how anything I would say about it would appear to be trying to undermine those both arguing for change and exposing that the devs are doing something wrong (ignoring, tone deaf) by not making the change.

I could very well be wrong and what I see as ad hominem attacks against the devs are justified, so I won't continue the loop of rebuttal, with each of us seeing progressive attacks and misrepresentations in the explanations. Right or wrong, you don't need the acrimony and neither do I.

Enjoy the game and keep pushing for what you think will make it better.

It’s true I became defeatist after seeing iteration 3 and that I got too caught up in all this when there are more important things in this world and maybe even stretched the limits of decorum but at least I was funny about it.

I would like to make one last point: the solution of only allowing sa damage with rogue weapons preserves the original ranger as the martial weapon king (and makes thematic sense) while removing evasion does not necessarily preserve the old ranger as there are ways to work around it and medium armor might even be better for end game min maxers. (and is anti-thematic)

[Mamalian]

I think I have to agree with the community consensus that the ranger should get a choice between evasion or medium armor proficiency.

That would make this suck less.

[elvesunited]

One of the big pitfalls of Dark Hunter was that if you didn't go intelligence based harper splash, you would be a fairly poor trapper. But with the wilderness feats now adding to skill scores. That expands the Dark Hunter's options and perhaps you could switch out intelligence for strength for the enhancement tree attribute bonuses and checks. A medium armor ranger could choose to max strength rather than a dexterity as ....

Looking at my dex based ranger I noted that I'm actually better off with light armor than medium regardless of evasion or tempest/deepwood enhancements. The loss of AC and dodge from the lower max dexterity bonus by themselves make medium armor a worse option.

Perhaps I'm an odd duck but I think that a musclebound ranger in medium armor throwing a smoke bomb and then charging in and getting sneak attack damage with his two handed great sword would be an interestingly twisted build idea.

[spifflove]

Perhaps I'm an odd duck but I think that a musclebound ranger in medium armor throwing a smoke bomb and then charging in and getting sneak attack damage with his two handed great sword would be an interestingly twisted build idea.

That makes two odd ducks because that’s definitely what I am going to do if this is the final iteration. Nice job

[Scrag]

That makes two odd ducks because that’s definitely what I am going to do if this is the final iteration. Nice job

Ok, so I _also_ was going to do this, but with some barbarian in the mix (natures lore!!). It feels like a waste of the free twf feats, and I am not sure if I could get mileage out of ranged attacks, but yeah a smash-trap mentality is exciting to me.

What stats would you dump into? Int? Str?

edit: lupine instincts is THE BOMB.

[Pretty_Good_Old_One]

One of the big pitfalls of Dark Hunter was that if you didn't go intelligence based harper splash, you would be a fairly poor trapper. But with the wilderness feats now adding to skill scores. That expands the Dark Hunter's options and perhaps you could switch out intelligence for strength for the enhancement tree attribute bonuses and checks. A medium armor ranger could choose to max strength rather than a dexterity as ....

Looking at my dex based ranger I noted that I'm actually better off with light armor than medium regardless of evasion or tempest/deepwood enhancements. The loss of AC and dodge from the lower max dexterity bonus by themselves make medium armor a worse option.

Perhaps I'm an odd duck but I think that a musclebound ranger in medium armor throwing a smoke bomb and then charging in and getting sneak attack damage with his two handed great sword would be an interestingly twisted build idea.

Very good catch on the wilderness feats. As is, that is how I want to play the character too... edit: though maybe with a dash of bearbarian.

[spifflove]

Ok, so I _also_ was going to do this, but with some barbarian in the mix (natures lore!!). It feels like a waste of the free twf feats, and I am not sure if I could get mileage out of ranged attacks, but yeah a smash-trap mentality is exciting to me.

What stats would you dump into? Int? Str?

edit: lupine instincts is THE BOMB.

16 points into str and 6 points into intelligence. May need two past lives to get enough dex. I would like to play wood elf but there is an intelligence penalty. I have to admit dwarf, wf and horc the best choices.

[painkiller3]

I see one big problem with dark hunter tree…it is a melee tree but no competence bonus to hit points. This alone makes it worse than tempest

[elvesunited]

I see one big problem with dark hunter tree…it is a melee tree but no competence bonus to hit points. This alone makes it worse than tempest

what is:

"Dark Sight: You have True Seeing and +25% Competence bonus to HP. You may also toggle this on to gain Underdark Sight while within the Underdark."

?

[painkiller3]

what is:

"Dark Sight: You have True Seeing and +25% Competence bonus to HP. You may also toggle this on to gain Underdark Sight while within the Underdark."

?

My bad I was looking at DDO builder which wasn’t updated as recently as lammania . Thanks for correction

[sjbb87]

It's better than the second version, but it still lacks synergy with Ranger and his other two trees.

Once again I ask, Exchange Core lvl 12 Escape Through the Dark with Blade Specialization.

Return with evasion (anyway evasion doesn't work with medium armor so anyone who runs with this build doesn't change anything)

without these changes, this class/tree is not viable

[Scrag]

It's better than the second version, but it still lacks synergy with Ranger and his other two trees.

Once again I ask, Exchange Core lvl 12 Escape Through the Dark with Blade Specialization.

Return with evasion (anyway evasion doesn't work with medium armor so anyone who runs with this build doesn't change anything)

without these changes, this class/tree is not viable

Core 12 is something extremely valuable to work towards that doesnt require a massive outlay in AP to get. Giving up escape sneak dice is a really bad move.

[SocratesBastardSon]

The build is a little schizophrenic: it pushes DEX as a class focus, but then includes aspects that are anti-DEX, like no evasion and Medium Armor focus. I'd like to see the Devs provide a tighter focus in what they're trying to do here, or increase the options just a bit more. As it is, it looks a somewhat awkward and contradictory.

I actually love the whole Ranger tank idea. I played one in the past, and liked it, but that isn't the Rangers' strength (pun intended). DH seems to be trying to open up a tank build and make it a more attractive play style.

Some posters like elvesunited have mentioned adding a STR stat option, and I agree wholeheartedly. Given that Rangers get TWF without the DEX reqs, it almost begs for a STR focus. (If you really want to go nuts, give DH the option to choose the THF line instead of TWF; after all, if you're throwing heal pots, it's difficult to do with two weapons. ) If that means replacing INT with STR for the Stat selector, so be it. The Wilderness Lore-to-trapping from Lupine Instincts easily makes up for it (and what a cool enhancement!). I know Harper fans would prefer to keep INT, and so would I, so I hope a STR/DEX/INT/WIS selector is possible.

To sum up:

• Make Underdark Defenses a Medium Armor buff/Evasion selector for DEX builds.
• Add some MDB bonus along with ACP for DEX builds if you don't want to offer Evasion.
• Add STR as a stat option.

That will make this class far more coherent and a Ranger Tank play style really sing. Or hunt. Or really something good.

Thanks for reading!

[Tilomere]

* Entangle mechanic is really hard to pull of yourself, as you lack the DCs and I can't imagine druids using entangle as a spell, even with some blightcaster synergy. Because whatever they can entangle, they can also tsunami to death instead.

Technically speaking, since Tsunami clears spell effects no druids have entangle synergy, even blight casters will be using Tsunami over entangle or earthquake. And since this patch means tons of druids will be running around casting Tsunami, that means no one else in the game has entangle (or persistent spell) synergy as well.

Well, maybe a sleetstorm Cut the Strings user, but outside of sleet storm which doesn't get blown away I can't think of any persistent spell user that will be effective until blight caster lives are complete.

[R1ncewind]

I miss the times when Devs used to actually replay posts in the Lamannia forums =(, there are almost no conversations this the past 3 preview