ARCHMAGE tree is 100% Worthless comapred to PM/EK - How to Fix it(AD&D elemental spec

[SorcererVictor]

The tree is worthless. For example.

• Necrotic blast at lv 20 would deal 20d6+20*5 and assuming 3.5 as average roll for d6, 170 damage before spellpower and metamagic. Arcane blast in other hands, would deal only 70(20d6) damage in average.
• Talents which increase critical chance increase only 1% instead of 2%(PM)
• Most SLA are trash, while sorc gets lighting bolt, fireball and so on, Archmages gets nothing interesting.
• Nor cool transformations like undead form and elemental form
• No survivability.obtained(except by hate decrease)
• The capstone is also trash. PM gets a powerful aura which can easily heal them every 3 seconds for hundreds ot hit points and do colossal damage and offer better attribute gains than "Master of Magic"
• (...)

To fix the class. I would suggest two approachs. The first is buffing the class, making Arcane Blast do similar damage to necrotic blast, giving more DC and spell power and so on.

The second, is IMO more interesting. Would be to make "elemental archmage". That tree would't be focused on raw power as sorc, but would give powerful abilities for DC casters.

An elemental archmage would become Pyromancer or Cryomancer focused elementalist tree. Player would chose it when investing the first point.

• Have his Arcane blast and bolt replaced into (cold//fire/) blast
• +crit buffed
• Better SLA, elemental versions of typical spells and mostly DC based spells. Eg - An cryomancer would get flesh to ice instead of flesh to stone, and freeze heart instead of finger of death as SLA, pyromancers could get "magmaskin", which combines stoneskin + fire shield.
• Core would get a bit less spell power and caster level than sorc but more DC for his elemental spells
• An CONSTRUCT or elemental PET.
• The capstone would allow the archamge to become an Efreet or an Marid
• (...)

That way, we would get eleemental wizards which are vastly different from sorc.

For those who don't know, the first elemental specialized wizard come from AD&D's tome of magic. As you can see, in the description bellow, some of the kit's traits - From tome of magic - page 9.

[archest]

unforce the spell core slas. its not necessarily the path we choose that's been chosen for us.
maybe the character build uses more than one school.

change something to increase caster level.

I mean a caster has a lot of spell choices as it is, 1/2 of them sit unused in a tool bar ( until an opportunity to use them exists , banishment for example).

I still think there should be a melee staff tree for casters.
while if you multi class you have access to the rogue tree but then your multiclassing .
as a traditional caster using a staff access to staff training should be available in your class.

[archest]

things like a Improved paralyzing staff buff
Improved stunning buff
Improved freeze buff
Improved banishing

similar to the archers arrows.

from melee hits to aid in evading the melee battle and get back to ranged spell casting.

on critical hit slay living spell tics

[capsela]

I approve of this thread.

[Smokewolf]

1) The Archmages (AM) Arcane Bolt / Blast is largely unresisted, which I suspect lead to it having lower damage. The upside is that this can be greatly enhanced by Meta-Magic / Destinies to good effect. (Very strong vs mobs that resist elemental damage and in Reaper)

2) The AM tree wasn’t developed in a vacuum and as such was intended to be used in conjunction with EK / PM trees to add the needed survivability.

3) The Illusion school with Specialization 4 (Phantasmal Killer) is very useful for DC casters. Other than that, the rest of the Specializations are all but useless for veteran players. To be honest I’d rather see Specialization provide +1 to the chosen schools DC (-1 to opposing) per “Specialization” core taken, than having a bunch of lack luster SLA’s. This would provide +5 to a single school, prior to Mastery I & II. (For a combined total of +7)

4) Wizards are meant to be Generalist, while Sorcerers are devoted to a chosen Element. Thus Wizard EK’s shouldn’t use Elemental damage, but instead have access to “ Rust, Force, Negative, and Sonic “ damage effects. This fits better with the class while allowing the Wizards the ability to more readily bypass DR via physical attacks.

-Smoke

[Pandjed]

To not rewrite the same stuff over again, let's look at an earlier post of mine in a different thread which also includes more links to other posts!

As I said here, here, here, and here, Archmage basically ties into how wizards specialize into schools in the actual D&D Pen and Paper, though this tree doesn't do it well.
Therefore a huge rewrite would be needed to not only make it viable, but also give it an identity beyond the "Oh boy, I'm just a better spellcaster". In your rewrite, why should I go beyond tier 2? I mean, that's spellpower thrown at you without much opportunity cost. Even one point would be enough for several multiclass cases (as wizards also get a feat at 1st level).

I'd rather see Archmage put to rest (and make a ED with the same name), and add 2-3 other trees that picks up some wizard schools that fits together. Warmage for a evo/conj tree, Shaper as a illu/transmut tree (well, Feydark could have become a wizard tree, but no, CHA to hit and damage needed to get in there), Warder as a abjuration/divination tree, and the like.

Alternatively, make the tree interact with metamagics and your specialized school better. Like instead of normal SLAs, make improved versions of spells, like instead of fireshield SLA, get the Weathershield SLA, which gives absorb to both elements. Make sure that it feels special to be specialized, that you got the feeling "I've delved deeper into the school than most other spellcasters". Give short-term buffs when using an actual spell of your school, like temp SP or HP, PRR or the like, rewarding a school-specialized playing style. Give a metamagic mastery at tier 5, which allows you whenever you cast a spell (instead SLA) with a metamagic toggled on, you get a buff depending on the metamagic or that the metamagics itself become more potent (+200% duration for extend, more spellpower or better crit profile for empower/maximize, quicken speeds your spellcasting time to a sorcerer with quicken, etc.).

Archmage's power-problem is less of an issue than its blandness and lack of noticeable identity.

The problem of the wizard was always the sorcerer, as D&D 3e only differed them from one game mechanic (prepared spells vs. known spells), but they shared the same spell list and the wizard got additional feats (but these metamagics were very bad). So going an elementalist route would be rather sad and unimaginitave and just degrade the wizard to the onviously worse sorc, a pitiful copycat, a no-good, a sad excuse of game-design that got all F-grades and got hanged on by its underwear by its own parents because just looking at it is so embarassing, that even they had to bully it or be part of the laughingstock themselves.

So I stick to my earlier posts: Go with the specialized mechanic, and go harder on it, while also getting the SLAs out of the core.

[DaviMOC]

I like your input Pandej. but I would keep archamage as how it is. My understanding is that archmages needs to be more than just about direct damage. That is the sorcerer job after all.

If they could make summons more useful and bring in something like (mordenkain sword) and familiars.

Implementation and creative use of biggy hand spell line.

After seeing some mobs doing it I was hoping for Mirror image to finally arrive on the game.

Visage spells such as ghost and etheral.

Implementation of Spellmantle spell and a rework on the globe ones.

Shaperchange implementation and a rework on tenser transformation to fit the current game.

Reduce/Enlarge person.

Gate as part of the summon rework.

Not only from d&d but we could have stuff from other games like blink spells, buff stealers, replacement spells , damage transfer, polymorph target.

And many other spells that are more than just deal XdY+B damage of type Z per spell caster level and scales at 1xx% of your spell power.


Right now we just have the sorcerer most common selected spells and the other spells in the game its implementations just dont fit the current game. Having more spell options that does more than direct damage with different focus backed by the enhancement system would make it meaningfully different from a sorc and if well done be relevant by itself on the meta.

Or we could just strip the imunity strippers and make it master of exotic damage. Thats a sad but simpler solution that would make alot of sorcerers and other spellcasters very angry.


While all spells are about dealing direct damage sorceres will be kings over wizards as nuking is a part of the sorcerer theme.

[capsela]

Wizard class is terrible compared to sorcerer. This fact, is balanced by giving them extra metamagic. When metamagics are worthless, the class is no longer balanced.


Is that simple enough for everyone to understand?

[Artos_Fabril]

The tree is worthless.

hyperbole, but in essence I agree.

The second, is IMO more interesting. Would be to make "elemental archmage".

I applaud anyone who proposes ideas to fix the problem, but I disagree with your solution, as I find it insufficiently distinct from elemental sorc.

I have also proposed a solution, in somewhat more detail. https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...=1#post6497233

So I stick to my earlier posts: Go with the specialized mechanic, and go harder on it, while also getting the SLAs out of the core.

A Specialist Wizard would be a good choice for an Archtype (probably in place of Pale Master, to avoid double-tapping on Pale Master/Necromancer). An Archmage, however, is not traditionally a Specialist caster, but a generalist master of the arcane. I believe that conflating these two concepts was the fundamental flaw of the Archmage tree from its inception.

[capsela]

Archmage's decrepit enhancement tree was last updated 2010. Magic missile is a spell that is iconic to DnD. Yet, it seems, nobody uses it even at low levels. It's got really cool unique animations as well. Why not make Archmage a magic missle tree. Each level increases magic missle caster level and max caster levels. Also make pink archon call it "living magic missile" and have it follow you around and be a pet. All sorts of possibilities exist.



Please bring back this iconic spell. Perhaps a new variation on it. Here are some ideas.

Magic Missile Mastery [Metamagic]
You have learned the secrets of magic missile.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast magic missile, Intelligence 15+
Benefit: Your caster level is considered four higher for the purpose of casting magic missile, also increase MCL of magic missiles.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time beyond the first your caster level only goes up by one.( so the second time you takes this feat you cast Magic Missile at +5 caster level.)

Epic magic missiles - ???
Leonardo's Everflowing Chalice of Missiles You summon a pool of radiance that unleashes magic missiles.
Self Projectile Turn into a magic missile and launch yourself at your foes.
Isaac's Missile Swarm An upgraded version of Magic Missile, with slightly higher damage and restrictions
Magic Warhead Fires off a larger version of Magic Missile that not only automatically hits its target, but also damages those around it.
Mordenkainen's Force Missiles You create powerful missiles of magical force, which darts from your fingertips and unerringly strikes their designated targets.
O'Bannon's Siege Missiles You fire a barrage of oversized magic missiles capable of battering down castle walls.

[Artos_Fabril]

Double post. Please delete

[Artos_Fabril]

Archmage's decrepit enhancement tree was last updated 2010. Magic missile is a spell that is iconic to DnD. Yet, it seems, nobody uses it even at low levels.

It has a relatively slow casting speed, a single target, and doesn't scale past level 9 on anything but spellpower.

It also already has 2 improved versions that don't impose a feat tax. Chain Missiles at level 3 and Force Missiles at level 4.

The numerous problems for the Archmage tree will not be resolved by hyper specializing it around one icon spell that is not suited to the current state of the game.

Even if Core 1 was "all magic missiles are quickened, empowered, extended, and maximized" it wouldn't solve the problem with either Archmage, or the way the state of play has depreciated the spell.

Magic Missile Mastery [Metamagic]
You have learned the secrets of magic missile.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast magic missile, Intelligence 15+
Benefit: Your caster level is considered four higher for the purpose of casting magic missile, also increase MCL of magic missiles.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time beyond the first your caster level only goes up by one.( so the second time you takes this feat you cast Magic Missile at +5 caster level.)

Also, this feat does nothing beyond CL9, because magic missile explicitly doesn't scale with caster levels beyond the 5th missile. This isn't an issue with the CL or MCL of the spell, so increasing those doesn't help.

If SSG wanted there to be fun magic missile builds, they wouldn't have specifically nerfed the interaction between magic missile and Shiradi.

[vik1]

I don't think it's useless, but it's good as a supplement not as a primary enhancement tree. I agree with the poster who mentioned the pyromancer idea was too similar to a sorc. What I would suggest instead is maybe taking some aspects from Red Wizard of Thay in Neverwinter Nights 2. Maybe you focus in 2 spell schools, lose out on 2, and you gain some DC, spell pen, and caster levels as a tradeoff?

[Artos_Fabril]

The term Archmage is an honorary title bestowed to those Wizards who have spent their entire lives studying and mastering the use of magic in all its many forms, and particularly the strongest of spells.
They are of the greatest class of spell casters and magic users to ever exist. Archmages are capable of controlling, manipulating, conjuring and mastering nearly every form of magic in existence.
An Archmage is not a specialist caster. An Archmage is not an Evoker or Necromancer, Enchanter or Transmuter, an Archmage is a master of all schools of magic

I think a less drastic rebuild could be equally if not more effective, but that Archmage should be a generalist, rather than a specialist caster (that was a separate basic caster option in 3.5e)

In fact, I think the biggest mistake made in the original AM tree is trying to make it a specialist caster without really supporting school specialization.

I'll take a shot at reimagining Archmage as a generalist caster while allowing it to work in DDO where everything is balanced against maximal overspecialization:

Core 1: Each core ability in this tree grants +7 universal spellpower; Each point spent in this tree grants 2 SP; Select a spell school, gain a permanent effect based of the chosen school:

• Aburation: Gain permanent Nightshield
• Conjuration: Gain the Augment Summoning Feat
• Enchantment: Gain +1 Spell Penetration
• Evocation: Gain +5 Spellcraft
• Illusion: Gain Invisibility SLA
• Necromancy: You are immune to Fear effects
• Transmutation: All weapons and armor you equip gain +1 enhancement bonus; weapons also gain +3 Implement bonus to spellpower.

Core 2: Reduce the cost of all Metamagic feats by 1. If you posses Augment summoning, +1 to all stats of summoned creatures; If you possess Mental Toughness, gain 1% crit chance for all spells; Select a school other than that chosen for Core 1, gain an effect or SLA:

• Aburation: Nightshield grants +10 MRR and MRR cap
• Conjuration: Web SLA
• Enchantment: Gain Resistible Dance SLA
• Evocation: Gain +5 Spellcraft
• Illusion: You are always under the effect of the Blur spell
• Necromancy: Gain Scare SLA
• Transmutation: All weapons and armor you equip gain +1 enhancement bonus; weapons also gain +3 Implement bonus to spellpower.

Core 3: Gain +1 all DCs, and an additional +5 Universal Spell Power; If you possess Augment summoning, +1 to all stats and +25% fortification for summoned creatures; If you possess Mental Toughness, gain 1% crit chance for all spells and +50SP; Select a school and gain the associated SLA:

• Aburation: Gain Stoneskin SLA; your stoneskin also grants 10 PRR
• Conjuration: Acid Rain SLA
• Enchantment: Gain Hold Person SLA
• Evocation: Gain Chain Missiles SLA
• Illusion: Gain Displacement SLA
• Necromancy: Gain Burning Blood SLA
• Transmutation: Gain Haste SLA

Core 4: Gain +1 all DCs; Gain +1% crit chance for all spells; Gain +1 to DCs to all spell schools selected in Core 1-3; If you possess Augment Summoning, +2 all stats for all summoned creatures; Select an SLA or effect from the list:

• Aburation: Gain Protection from Elements SLA; This SLA has no Max Caster Level
• Conjuration: Summon Moster V SLA; +2 all stats for all conjured creatures
• Enchantment: Gain Hold Monster SLA; +1 Spell Penetration
• Evocation: Gain Cyclonic Blast SLA; +10 Force Spell Power
• Illusion: Gain Phantasmal Killer SLA; Phantasmal Killer deals 2d3+6/caster level on a successful fort save
• Necromancy: Gain Enervation SLA; You are immune to level drain
• Transmutation: Flesh to Stone SLA; Your weapons gain an additional +1 enhancement bonus and +3 implement bonus to spell power

Core 5: +1 all DCs; Reduce the cost of all metamagic feats by an additional 1. If you possess Improved Mental Toughness, gain 1% crit chance to all spells and 100SP; if you possess Mobile Spellcasting, reduce the cost of Quicken Spell by 2; Greater Spell Focus feats grant an additional +1 DC; Select a school effect from the list:

• Aburation: Your abjuration spells also grant temp HP equal to your Int modifier to you, and all party members in the area of effect.
• Conjuration: Your offensive conjuration spells have a 2% chance to Trap the Soul; Your summons are immune to banishment and death effects
• Enchantment: Your Enchantments gain the Widen Spell metamagic, doubling their area of effect
• Evocation: Reduce the Cooldown of Evocation spells by 10%
• Illusion: While Displaced, your spells generate 50% less threat; while invisible, gain 5% spell crit chance
• Necromancy: Your offensive necromancy spells heal you for 1 damage per target per caster level; if you are in an undead shroud, you are healed for 1 negative damage per target per caster level, and 50% of overhealing is added as temporary HP for 1 minute (stacks with other sources of temp HP but not itself)
• Transmutation: Gain 20 PRR, 10 MRR and DR 10/Crystal

Core 6: +4 Int; +5 Spellcraft; reduce the cost of metamagic feats by an additional 1; Apply the Eschew Components feat to all your spells. Arcane Scrolls you use are cast at your caster level, and are heightened and maximized if you possess those feats.

Tier 1:

• Subtle Spell Casting: Your damaging spells generate 10%/20%/30% less hate.(3 Tiers, 1AP)
• Energy Of The Scholar: Increase your maximum Spell Points by an additional 30/60/100(3 tiers, 1AP)
• Mastery of Spellcraft: Increase your Spellcraft Skill by 2/4/6 points; 25%/+50%/+75% effectiveness from your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells, and +1/+3/+6 to the save DC of your offensive wands. This will block Wand and Scroll Mastery in other enhancement trees.(3 tiers, 1 AP)
• Traditionalist Caster: Gain 3/6/10 Universal Spellpower when wielding an Orb or 5/10/15 when wielding a staff (3 tiers, 1AP)
• Arcane Critical: Gain 1% crit rate for acid/cold/electric/fire/untyped and 2% for force spells (2AP)

Tier 2:

• Efficient Metamagic: Choose one meta magic to reduce the increased spell cost by a certain amount based on the chosen Metamagic. (Can Choose from all available Metamagics except epics, 3 Tiers, 2 AP)
• Spell Penetration: +1 Spell Penetration. (2 tiers, 1 AP)
• Arcane Bolt: Gain Arcane Bolt as an SLA. 6/4/2 SP 15/10/5 sec CD (3 tiers, 1 AP)
• Arcane Boost: Gain 10/20/30 Universal Spellpower for 20 seconds (3 tiers, 1AP)
• Arcane Critical I: Gain 1% crit rate for acid/cold/electric/fire/untyped and 2% for force spells (2AP)

Tier 3:

• Intelligence: +1 Intelligence (1 tier, 2AP)
• Arcane Surge: When Arcane Boost is activated, gain 15/30/50 temp SP for 20 seconds
• Arcane Vulnerability: Damaging spells have a 1% per wizard level chance to inflict a stack of Vulnerability (2AP)
• Arcane Power I: Increase Universal spellpower by 3/6/10 points (3 tiers, 1AP)
• Arcane Critical II: Gain 1% crit rate for acid/cold/electric/fire/untyped and 2% for force spells (2AP)

Tier 4:

• Intelligence: +1 Intelligence (1 tier, 2AP)
• Arcane Unravelling: Gain 3/6/10 MRR and 10/20/30 MRR cap (3 tiers, 2AP)
• Arcane Utility: Casting a non-damaging spell has a 33/66/100% chance to grant you 10 temporary SP (3 tiers, 1AP)
• Arcane Power II: Increase Universal spell power by 5/10/10 points; at tier 3 gain +1 all DCs. (3 tiers, 2AP)
• Arcane Critical III: Gain 1% crit rate for acid/cold/electric/fire/untyped and 2% for force spells (2AP)

Tier 5:

• Spell Like Ability: Arcane Blast. (Activation Cost: 12/8/6 Spell Points. Cooldown: 18/12/6 seconds.) (3tiers, 1AP)
  Raw arcane energy assails your target, dealing 1 to 6 hit points of force damage per caster level to all within its radius, and leaves the survivors dazed, the force of the blast may knock your opponents off their feet. A successful Reflex save reduces the damage by half; a successful Fort save negates the knockdown; a successful will save negates the daze effect
• Will of the Archmagus: You may use your Int modifier instead of wisdom for Will saves (1 tier, 2AP)
• Flash of Insight: shorten all spell and SLA cooldowns by 60 Seconds; Cooldown: 600 seconds (1tier, 2AP)
• Arcane Augmentation: Gain 1/2 Caster Level/MCL to all spells (2 tier, 2AP)

[Enoach]

The one suggestion I would put out there for the AM tree is instead of a set innate spell per core, open it up for selection of a school and then any spell of that school of the appropriate level or lower that core enhancement represents.

This would open up customization even allowing newer spells to be added as an option as they get added.

[Artos_Fabril]

The one suggestion I would put out there for the AM tree is instead of a set innate spell per core, open it up for selection of a school and then any spell of that school of the appropriate level or lower that core enhancement represents.

This would open up customization even allowing newer spells to be added as an option as they get added.

Great idea on paper. I have no idea how difficult it would be to code, but I don't have a lot of confidence in SSG to implement things we haven't seen done before.

[dunklezhan]

An Archmage, however, is not traditionally a Specialist caster, but a generalist master of the arcane. I believe that conflating these two concepts was the fundamental flaw of the Archmage tree from its inception.

Indeed.

[SorcererVictor]

1) The Archmages (AM) Arcane Bolt / Blast is largely unresisted,)

Same for sorcs past lv 20 and PM past Unholy Avatar.

2) The AM tree wasn’t developed in a vacuum and as such was intended to be used in conjunction with EK / PM trees to add the needed survivability.

Wrong. It is the worst damage and zero survivability

3) The Illusion school with Specialization 4 (Phantasmal Killer) is very useful for DC casters. Other than that, the rest of the Specializations are all but useless for veteran players.

Agreed.

4) Wizards are meant to be Generalist, while Sorcerers are devoted to a chosen Element. Thus Wizard EK’s shouldn’t use Elemental damage, but instead have access to “ Rust, Force, Negative, and Sonic “ damage effects. This fits better with the class while allowing the Wizards the ability to more readily bypass DR via physical attacks

According to whom? Specialized Wizards since AD&D ""kits"" and DDO is a game where chars are far more specialized than in 3.5e.