The Future Reaper Update

[Ereshkigal]

If lag is the reason for potentially removing reaper trees, I think making reaper trees always apply is an ok solution. Most entries are on R1+ anyway (except newbies, slayer zone, some raids and specific quests). It makes people stronger on those difficulties but better than taking reaper trees away. Which would upset a LOT of people.

Or alternative, have reaper trees always apply and then remove them on elite or lower, but it might not reduce lag enough.

my understanding is that the lag is because the software goes through and checks each enhancement on each tree individually to see if they have been acquired, and then adds the bonuses accordingly, one at a time, resulting in lag.

Why not add a 'reaper tab' to the character sheet that would be updated through that same process, but it could be done when the reaper tree is updated, instead of each time a quest is entered, then instead of a bunch of queries at the beginning of a reaper quest, it would just add the precalculated bonuses on the reaper tab. Seems like an easy fix, plus a nice place to view your total reaper bonsues.

[slarden]

my understanding is that the lag is because the software goes through and checks each enhancement on each tree individually to see if they have been acquired, and then adds the bonuses accordingly, one at a time, resulting in lag.

Why not add a 'reaper tab' to the character sheet that would be updated through that same process, but it could be done when the reaper tree is updated, instead of each time a quest is entered, then instead of a bunch of queries at the beginning of a reaper quest, it would just add the precalculated bonuses on the reaper tab. Seems like an easy fix, plus a nice place to view your total reaper bonsues.

Not to be an armchair ddo developer here, but yes storing the totals of each stat when the reaper tree changes are saved and applying only the total is the way I would expect something like this work. If they are really reading one enhancement at a time and applying changes one enhancement at a time it's just an example of rushed development. I have no knowledge of what they are doing under the hoods, but I do experience lag when entering a quest for sure.

If they get rid of the trees it's likely something they wanted to do anyhow and it's just an excuse to do so. They should definitely be able to load stats better without eliminating the trees.

[KoobTheProud]

So I'm going to ask again: what was the point of putting in higher difficulty levels with built-in power creep?

Who thought this one up and why should anybody count on them to fix it?

Because obviously the next move is higher difficulty levels with built-in power creep.

/hamster jumps off the wheel

[ahpook]

...

If they get rid of the trees it's likely something they wanted to do anyhow and it's just an excuse to do so.

This is my take as well. Reduce lag! is the Benefit! that they seem to be happy to tack on to any change as their "spoonful of sugar". If they actually need to swap trees out for a predetermined progression to solve a lag problem then this code base is beyond redemption IMO.

[Tyrande]

This is my take as well. Reduce lag! is the Benefit! that they seem to be happy to tack on to any change as their "spoonful of sugar". If they actually need to swap trees out for a predetermined progression to solve a lag problem then this code base is beyond redemption IMO.

Its probably a quickly put together hack to challenge those people who think EEs were too easy.

Some old code cannot be refactored. They will need to be wiped, cleaned and rewritten from scratch for scaling support.

[Sheneran]

About the point 2. I dont like much to discuss monetization but IMO vip is the best and only thing you need to invest when you start this game. The extra 500pts and the acess to elite will unlock an healthy enough experience and build the points required to buy every expansion pack that is not the latest one( and its completly fine to not have it as a newbie). The only issue about that is that gamers nowdays cant stand subscription or p2p models so it is still a barrier for new folks.

"build the new points to get the expansions"... you mean, after months you can buy them. Not very interesting for someone trying out the game for the first time. Considering a good part of the lfms are something related to the expansions, and the items are way better than what you find elsewhere. From 500 to 500 per month + the points you get with favor, you've already quitted before you got them. Let's not talk about the other premium stuff you kinda need to have to play this game seriously like tomes, bank etc.

[Sheneran]

So I'm going to ask again: what was the point of putting in higher difficulty levels with built-in power creep?

Who thought this one up and why should anybody count on them to fix it?

Because obviously the next move is higher difficulty levels with built-in power creep.

/hamster jumps off the wheel

This is what MMO's are about. The specific problem of DDO is, as I pointed out in the last page, that the wheel doesn't reset, but keeps getting bigger and bigger, widening the gap between old and new players, and between old players who play a lot and who play less. In DDO the "wheel" is not actually a wheel, they simply move goal higher. This doesn't happen that much with other MMO's because their "wheels" are acutally wheels, i.e., the benefit from farming doesn't keep accumulating and accumulating via inherent benefits you get from XP (past lives, fate points, reaper trees), but the wheel is more about item farm, that can't be really accumulated.

There are some forms of solving the problem, and if they really want to fix it they need to implement a little of all of them:
1) nerfing the benefits from past lives, reaper trees and fate points
2) raising the power creep so high that they become trivial
3) actions like this sharing power mechanic the devs are presenting

[Ereshkigal]

This is what MMO's are about. The specific problem of DDO is, as I pointed out in the last page, that the wheel doesn't reset, but keeps getting bigger and bigger, widening the gap between old and new players, and between old players who play a lot and who play less. In DDO the "wheel" is not actually a wheel, they simply move goal higher. This doesn't happen that much with other MMO's because their "wheels" are acutally wheels, i.e., the benefit from farming doesn't keep accumulating and accumulating via inherent benefits you get from XP (past lives, fate points, reaper trees), but the wheel is more about item farm, that can't be really accumulated.

There are some forms of solving the problem, and if they really want to fix it they need to implement a little of all of them:
1) nerfing the benefits from past lives, reaper trees and fate points
2) raising the power creep so high that they become trivial
3) actions like this sharing power mechanic the devs are presenting

Eh, first lifers can do R10s so I don't think the "gap" is so dire.

https://youtu.be/7F3Bny3c5EI

[KoobTheProud]

This is what MMO's are about. The specific problem of DDO is, as I pointed out in the last page, that the wheel doesn't reset, but keeps getting bigger and bigger, widening the gap between old and new players, and between old players who play a lot and who play less. In DDO the "wheel" is not actually a wheel, they simply move goal higher. This doesn't happen that much with other MMO's because their "wheels" are acutally wheels, i.e., the benefit from farming doesn't keep accumulating and accumulating via inherent benefits you get from XP (past lives, fate points, reaper trees), but the wheel is more about item farm, that can't be really accumulated.

There are some forms of solving the problem, and if they really want to fix it they need to implement a little of all of them:
1) nerfing the benefits from past lives, reaper trees and fate points
2) raising the power creep so high that they become trivial
3) actions like this sharing power mechanic the devs are presenting

They've done #2 already. The stats on items were overwhelming most past life benefits and so they did a stats crunch to bring them back in line.

[Wizard1406]

So I'm going to ask again: what was the point of putting in higher difficulty levels with built-in power creep?

Who thought this one up and why should anybody count on them to fix it?

Because obviously the next move is higher difficulty levels with built-in power creep.

/hamster jumps off the wheel

It's like this in other MMOs too.

- Do difficulty 1 for lvl 100 gear
- difficulty 2 drops 110 gear, and once you have full 110 gear difficulty 2 is easy, 1 is trivial
- difficulty 3 drops 120 gear

etc.

Except in DDO the drops barely increase from elite to R1 since reaper bonus is so rare. And R2-10 gear doesn't increase at all. So we have other progession, reaper points and pastlives.


Difference is player skill and build play a bigger role in DDO. And there is no catchup for pastlive bonuses, they pump out new PL really fast.
Where as in other MMOs, the lowest difficulty in a new expansion would drop gear as high as one of the highest difficulties of an old expansion, so new/returning/casual players can catch up fast.

[Thar]

Counterpoint. .maybe what needs rebalancing isn't reaper, but people's expectations...

R10 being standard operating difficulty for many parties suggests players have become overtuned. Especially since R10 often revolves around CCing everything to negate a lot of the challenge, which suggests it's those DC mechanics that are the fulcrum. If removing reaper trees forces everyone down a few skulls and makes R10 a legit challenge for well prepared full groups, then that sounds about right.

if you think that's the only way to complete R10s then your not running with non casters.

melee tanks - heals or dodge hold agro until others beat it down.

Ranged - just like in all other content you can't get hit if you aren't in range.

destiny, a lot of the trees have ways to slow, stop or otherwise cc mobs.

R10 isn't easy but if you are smart and play as a team you can get through it ok usually unless you get a bad combo of reapers.

[Thar]

It's like this in other MMOs too.

- Do difficulty 1 for lvl 100 gear
- difficulty 2 drops 110 gear, and once you have full 110 gear difficulty 2 is easy, 1 is trivial
- difficulty 3 drops 120 gear

etc.

Except in DDO the drops barely increase from elite to R1 since reaper bonus is so rare. And R2-10 gear doesn't increase at all. So we have other progession, reaper points and pastlives.


Difference is player skill and build play a bigger role in DDO. And there is no catchup for pastlive bonuses, they pump out new PL really fast.
Where as in other MMOs, the lowest difficulty in a new expansion would drop gear as high as one of the highest difficulties of an old expansion, so new/returning/casual players can catch up fast.

Which is why this game survives as a whole new gearset that is the same for everyone ever reaper level would be a paid, clog up inventory even more and the dev's have shown in the last 2 years that they can't come up with gear/sets that make sense to individual classes much less are good to all the different builds. how many good bard sets are there at endgame? 1

[LurkingVeteran]

The stat squish actually made PL/RP power creep worse because you can't compensate as much by items any more.

Part of the problem is also that DDO end game basically has built-in power checks for many builds (e.g. +DC for DC casters, reflex nukers, hit points + mitigation for melee). These could be addressed to make progression smoother (e.g. rethinking melee damage mitigation, rethinking DC / monster evasion).

[Rastallin]

Eh, first lifers can do R10s so I don't think the "gap" is so dire.

https://youtu.be/7F3Bny3c5EI

Myself along with Khyber friends have been running r10s for years now. We know every quest, where mobs spawn, where to stand on every pull etc etc. I don't play my maxed out toons, there is no progression, feels like no point.

So a lot of us just make new toons, these start off with no reaper points etc. It's would be a safe bet to say we understand what a maxed out toon is like to play and what a first life toon is like to play in r10. With out gear and knowledge you will have problems in r10. With gear, the right build and quest knowledge you will be able to contribute as much as any other average player. Take any of the 3 out, it won't be fun. So, new players don't need a catch up mechanism, they need guidance. So what's the answer here, dumb down builds, gear, reaper points and quests so the odd new player can rush in and not die every pull? Is there even such a thing as new players? If there is, do they even have idea of what end game players are doing? I doubt it.

[Rastallin]

Double post

[DaviMOC]

Myself along with Khyber friends have been running r10s for years now. We know every quest, where mobs spawn, where to stand on every pull etc etc. I don't play my maxed out toons, there is no progression, feels like no point.

So a lot of us just make new toons, these start off with no reaper points etc. It's would be a safe bet to say we understand what a maxed out toon is like to play and what a first life toon is like to play in r10. With out gear and knowledge you will have problems in r10. With gear, the right build and quest knowledge you will be able to contribute as much as any other average player. Take any of the 3 out, it won't be fun. So, new players don't need a catch up mechanism, they need guidance. So what's the answer here, dumb down builds, gear, reaper points and quests so the odd new player can rush in and not die every pull? Is there even such a thing as new players? If there is, do they even have idea of what end game players are doing? I doubt it.

I always said that but gave up talking about that for a while. It is possible now for low PL and RXP toons to tag along on high reaper on a meaningful way. With monster/difficulty rebalance and ED revamps made it all much easier but it was also possible back before it. Player knowledge + gear enables any toon and weights much much heavier than any PL or RXP.

Dont want to drag this discussion here but i feel the need to say Melees will feel harder the lack of power as being targeted or caught in a aoe is much more possible . The reaper challenge is all about actually surviving and being on the frontline is a huge disadvantage. But still viable with any Meta build.


Still hits really hard on new players when they join a party and while they are still buffing and listening to the introduction narration the veterans already got 50% of the quest done . Sharing RXP feels to me bad as it would kill most incentives to farm RXP but I cant present any smart solution for that.

[Ereshkigal]

Myself along with Khyber friends have been running r10s for years now. We know every quest, where mobs spawn, where to stand on every pull etc etc. I don't play my maxed out toons, there is no progression, feels like no point.

So a lot of us just make new toons, these start off with no reaper points etc. It's would be a safe bet to say we understand what a maxed out toon is like to play and what a first life toon is like to play in r10. With out gear and knowledge you will have problems in r10. With gear, the right build and quest knowledge you will be able to contribute as much as any other average player. Take any of the 3 out, it won't be fun. So, new players don't need a catch up mechanism, they need guidance. So what's the answer here, dumb down builds, gear, reaper points and quests so the odd new player can rush in and not die every pull? Is there even such a thing as new players? If there is, do they even have idea of what end game players are doing? I doubt it.

well said.

as far as new players, i see a multitude of them on Argonessen, even when it's the default. Possibly because it has been known as the most populated server and a google search can tell you that, of course that may change now with the great server merge of 2023...

The biggest thing they complain about is feeling so weak compared to others when they group. Also, they are almost always using a preset path - and I think this is the reason why they feel gimped - because they are gimped by the presets, have zero gear yet, and have no game knowledge. Personally I think bad presets are worse than no preset and here's why:

Someone that's new - that makes a custom build - in a game that is obviously very complicated - then doesn't do well --- might consider doing more research and trying again.

Someone that's new - that uses a premade build - designed by the developers of the game - to make the game choices easier for new players - then doesn't do well - might be less likely to consider that doing research and making a custom build might make playing the game more enjoyable.


I truly believe we're chasing people off with a stick by giving brand new players broken builds to play with and telling them they're great for new players to try out until they learn the game better.

There's really no point in fixing anything else at all, until they remove the broken premade builds, otherwise the slow spiral of server populations will just continue south until there's nothing left.

/end rant

[Kelledren]

well said.

as far as new players, i see a multitude of them on Argonessen, even when it's the default. Possibly because it has been known as the most populated server and a google search can tell you that, of course that may change now with the great server merge of 2023...

The biggest thing they complain about is feeling so weak compared to others when they group. Also, they are almost always using a preset path - and I think this is the reason why they feel gimped - because they are gimped by the presets, have zero gear yet, and have no game knowledge. Personally I think bad presets are worse than no preset and here's why:

Someone that's new - that makes a custom build - in a game that is obviously very complicated - then doesn't do well --- might consider doing more research and trying again.

Someone that's new - that uses a premade build - designed by the developers of the game - to make the game choices easier for new players - then doesn't do well - might be less likely to consider that doing research and making a custom build might make playing the game more enjoyable.


I truly believe we're chasing people off with a stick by giving brand new players broken builds to play with and telling them they're great for new players to try out until they learn the game better.

There's really no point in fixing anything else at all, until they remove the broken premade builds, otherwise the slow spiral of server populations will just continue south until there's nothing left.

/end rant

Exactly on point- both you and Rast. +1/+1

Right now it’s mostly the community that helps (and helps retain) new players. And that is only if they reach out in the forums, r, or in game. Most do not and are less likely to stay. They need to get rid of the terrible paths and replace them with something like a handbook- one for each class or play style.

[Kotharsjach]

Counterpoint. .maybe what needs rebalancing isn't reaper, but people's expectations...

R10 being standard operating difficulty for many parties suggests players have become overtuned. Especially since R10 often revolves around CCing everything to negate a lot of the challenge, which suggests it's those DC mechanics that are the fulcrum. If removing reaper trees forces everyone down a few skulls and makes R10 a legit challenge for well prepared full groups, then that sounds about right.

Personally I'm not a big fan of removing reaper trees or introducing for example reaper 11. A consolidation of the way Rp is calculated to reduce lag sounds beneficial tho. R10 already has a consistent scaling system which reaches %debuffs that already make sense on R10, part of the problem with R11 is how would you even tweak those values in a way that makes any sense. I think the solution actually lies in reexamining what reaper mode is to begin with. Which is to say Reaper mode is actually just Elite with a scaling system and a random added enemy spawn. lets say we added a 4th base difficulty level. Nightmare mode, all enemies spawn as champs, have 50% more hp and do 30% more damage, they also have +10 to all saves. From there, you could run nightmare mode from base mode to R10, and you get a 10% bonus to rexp and a 5% increased drop chance of named loot.

R11 would only appeal to maybe 10-20% of the game population. Nightmare mode R1 could be run by people who normally run R4. For people who have trouble with self heals, nightmare mode R0 might actually be easier than elite R1. nightmare mode R0 could also have the same bonus exp that elite R1 has. I think a 5% increased chance of named loot would be enough incentive for people to actually run it. With the changes compared to elite I'm suggesting or comparable ones, I seriously doubt many groups breezing through elite R10, would still be able to do the same on nightmare R10.

[Rastallin]

well said.

as far as new players, i see a multitude of them on Argonessen, even when it's the default. Possibly because it has been known as the most populated server and a google search can tell you that, of course that may change now with the great server merge of 2023...

The biggest thing they complain about is feeling so weak compared to others when they group. Also, they are almost always using a preset path - and I think this is the reason why they feel gimped - because they are gimped by the presets, have zero gear yet, and have no game knowledge. Personally I think bad presets are worse than no preset and here's why:

Someone that's new - that makes a custom build - in a game that is obviously very complicated - then doesn't do well --- might consider doing more research and trying again.

Someone that's new - that uses a premade build - designed by the developers of the game - to make the game choices easier for new players - then doesn't do well - might be less likely to consider that doing research and making a custom build might make playing the game more enjoyable.


I truly believe we're chasing people off with a stick by giving brand new players broken builds to play with and telling them they're great for new players to try out until they learn the game better.

There's really no point in fixing anything else at all, until they remove the broken premade builds, otherwise the slow spiral of server populations will just continue south until there's nothing left.

/end rant

This is a really good point regarding the premade characters. Also would it be game breaking to throw them 10-20 reaper points? They could make a new account starter pack, obviously disabled on hc.