The Future Reaper Update

[Diracorvus]

I would argue that reaper trees are not the reason toons are one shotting mobs in R10...looking at the bonuses below, it become apparent that a Melee with +21 Melee Power is not why reaper is easy, nor does it say to me that a spell caster with +48 Spell Power is the reason why mobs are being nuked. What you see below is a nominal amount of power that allows builds other than Meta builds to have a chance at running in high skull. Nothing below to me is broken when it is a very small % of the attributes we have already at endgame. I think its more of a balance thing vs. reaper points are OP...cause to me, they are not.

A maxed out toon gets the following:

Melee/Range Power: +21
Tactics: +4
Damage: +4
Spell Power: +48
Spell Points: 550
Spell DCs: +4
Spell Pen: +5
Ability: +15 (+5 in one choice in each tree) (equates to +2 DCs/+2 damage)
All Saves: +2
Select saves: +12
Dodge: +10%
Dodge Cap: +2%
MRR and PRR: +3
MRR or PRR: +21

Various Boosts
+1k HPs

This game is about accumulating a lot of small buffs. Of course it is not only those buff but add epic past lifes to that, racial past life extra AP, guild buffs, set bonuses etc. Also all the % buffs to HP make that 1k+ into much more. DCs are also hit or miss.
It's a simple fact that players have become too powerful for the content and more power creep shouldn't be the answer. When the devs proposed to make reaper harder instead of reducing player power there was a huge backlash in the lamannia forums and they had to step back from it. So what is it? Do we really want diablo style balance where we eventually get to +10000% health and damage just so the numbers always go up? This isn't an action RPG but it is now played like one by many people.
You also see that in quests design: people complain when there is a puzzle, a backtrack or really anything that isn't just a corridor filled with fireball-shaped monster blobs. And of course loot always has to be more and more powerful. And never nerf anything.
I really think in many things we should just leave the game design to the game designers. And everyone should just ignore the angry people on this forum. Which by the way is unique to just here. Look at reddit, any discord, twitch, youtube, steam forums etc. and it is so different. Let me reiterate that: Youtube comments and steam forums are less hostile than this forum. So I think the threats about everyone leaving and the game going bankrupt if they nerf a few things is really just a storm in a teacup.

[Mjolnyr]

This game has gone wrong since a long time ago. The fundamental error, is dev team's bad habit to inflate numbers to please players. This makes the system out of control, and some basic rule designs obsolete (such as barbarian DR, eventually the devs added resistance rating, and some players called this "CUSTOMIZATION".)

DnD 3.5 isn't a perfect system, but it is solid enough that supporters forked out Pathfinder rule sets and inherit its essential spirit. One of the best aspects of DnD 3.5, is its non-linear growth of characters (and especially multi-class ones). Bonus from items is capped carefully (remembering the time when max enhancements for heroic items were +6, some extraordinary epic items came with +7?), and the control is necessary. Epic quests were challenging that players have to team up carefully and use strategies to overcome the situations. From my point of view, I would say: 20000dmgs vorpal strike isn't DnD, 50000dmgs critical spell hit isn't DnD. Also, PRR/MRR isn't DnD, melee/ranged power isn't DnD. And reaper mode, which is brought to players who argued "DDO is too easy" after these insane twists to DnD 3.5 rules, isn't DnD to me.

Abandoning reaper enhancements makes players who invested in unhappy. However, this is the way to revamp and revive ordinary normal-hard-elite modes, just like how dev team decided to adjust inflated bonus down (such as resistance 16 down to 10, parry 10 down to 6) and brought some obsolete items viable again (such as devil's gambit sets. still under-powered somehow, but not completely eclipsed & useless anymore). I do support a new reaper scaling method other than enhancement tree.

[Maldorin]

This game has gone wrong since a long time ago. The fundamental error, is dev team's bad habit to inflate numbers to please players.

I would say it's more like inflate numbers to sell them to players. Then later reduce some numbers, repackage them and sell them back again. The game is a business, I understand they want to profit, however in my opinion, this is not a very healthy way game-wise to go about it in the long term. Wreaks havoc with balance. I mean the game is what, 17 years old? and they're still constantly tinkering with balance. Is it because they can't figure it out? I would say no, more like it's part of sales strategy.

[Ereshkigal]

We all want server merges- .

I do not want server mergers. it would simply limit any growth that might come with a mainstream D&D movie ( or if we're extremely luck, a whole series of them ). Or if they actually tried to fix the new player experience to improve retention of all the new players that try DDO even now.

I don't have a problem finding a group, because when i did, I just moved servers. That option is available to anyone now for free even.

...and I remember the early days when public areas had multiple instances because the population was so high, and they weren't what some people crack them up to be.

I'd rather see them spend the money on rehashing the new player experience ( I'm looking at you, Character Class paths ), because those predetermined paths are frequently why people don't stick around when they try DDO for the first time. It makes them feel like they suck at the game because they're playing with a terrible character build. Soooo many new players are trying out this game all the time... Why not fix the reasons why they're not being retained?

[Ereshkigal]

Excellent.

I also don't really see the reaper trees as all that customizable (and not at all if you have 156 points). What you select is pretty much determined by your class and main stat. The degree of customization will not really be missed. I think people just like the feeling they are making choices even when they are actually fairly trivial. Kinda like how we like to vote even though our one vote makes little difference.

anyone that isn't capped on reaper has customization options.

My feeling is that the vast majority of people that currently have reaper points are not capped.

I'm suggesting your viewpoint is the minority one, not the majority.

Also in their live discussion there was talk that this consolidation wasn't going to just be the same rewards we get now piled together. No. They want to replace some of the current bonuses with things like cosmetic items you earn by reaching a certain reaper point level, and even things like "+1% reaper XP". This change might not be what you're thinking it's going to be.

[TheMaxpower]

Many players spent a lot of time (years) and money (xp pots) to grind out reaper points based on a system that SSG designed and implemented. It would be extremely unfair and insulting to many players if this change results in any kind of nerf. It would be like "Bait and Switch." What's next, past lives no longer give you the benefit you were promised and worked hard for? I can see it now .... each past life now grants: +1 HP, +1 MRR, +1 PRR. "Sorry, the original rules no longer apply. See you back in the game." Perhaps not. LOL

[elvesunited]

Also in their live discussion there was talk that this consolidation wasn't going to just be the same rewards we get now piled together. No. They want to replace some of the current bonuses with things like cosmetic items you earn by reaching a certain reaper point level, and even things like "+1% reaper XP". This change might not be what you're thinking it's going to be.

This bell having been rung would be highly destructive to the game if unrung. A big reaper nerf would be a massive insult to all those players who grinded hard to get their points. To replace with cosmetics and very weak bonuses to reaper xp would just be icing to the insult cake.

[Aelonwy]

Many players spent a lot of time (years) and money (xp pots) to grind out reaper points based on a system that SSG designed and implemented. It would be extremely unfair and insulting to many players if this change results in any kind of nerf. It would be like "Bait and Switch." What's next, past lives no longer give you the benefit you were promised and worked hard for? I can see it now .... each past life now grants: +1 HP, +1 MRR, +1 PRR. "Sorry, the original rules no longer apply. See you back in the game." Perhaps not. LOL

Not that I care two farthings for Reaper but every time they change something that people have purchased and to which they have devoted time and effort... well it gives out strong Vader vibes "I'm altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further." *shrug* Often times the sycophants will say its a game, they're the devs they can change whatever they want, deal with it. Which conveniently overlooks that it is also a PRODUCT. Unfortunately, most people's method of dealing with it is to loose trust and confidence in the company and leave. Or at the very least, stop paying even if they play occasionally. No idea how this works out for their word-of-mouth-marketing.

[MaeveTuohy]

anyone that isn't capped on reaper has customization options.

Minimal.

[Zites]

Not that I care two farthings for Reaper but every time they change something that people have purchased and to which they have devoted time and effort... well it gives out strong Vader vibes "I'm altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further." *shrug* Often times the sycophants will say its a game, they're the devs they can change whatever they want, deal with it. Which conveniently overlooks that it is also a PRODUCT. Unfortunately, most people's method of dealing with it is to loose trust and confidence in the company and leave. Or at the very least, stop paying even if they play occasionally. No idea how this works out for their word-of-mouth-marketing.

Your guys Griping about bait and switch are right, they should just nerf casters and ranged down to the point where they can no longer exploit current reaper mechanics.

Or give us some new Reapers that change casters/ranged ability to game the Reaper system by EXPLOTING current mechanics, and remove all self healing from Reaper putting all classes on the same page.

[erethizon]

WoW had 10 MM+ paying subscribers then, now they have less than 5 MM, a 50% decrease but is still a huge revenue stream. DDO has maybe 12,000 and shrinking? Not sure if WoW is a valid comparison.

I have no idea how DDO even makes enough money to stay afloat, but these kinds of changes are not going to reduce the decline.

The free to play model is a way better business model than monthly subscriptions. One of the dumbest things WoW does is it takes it biggest customers, people that would gladly spend $1000 a month if they just had something to buy, and tells them, "No, no. Only give us $15. We don't want any more than that."

Let your big spenders spend. If you do that, you don't need all that many customers to have a successful business.

[erethizon]

I get why its unpopular, but I like moving away from highly selective Reaper trees towards something more like D3's Paragon system, where you just allocate small, generic incremental bonuses...

The reason being Reaper trees are particularly guilty of pigeonholing builds into a hyperspecialty, and that makes it difficult to balance things at high-tier endgame because the builds that totally specialize in something can do it so much better than those that even partly focus on it, that you're left with either making mobs so strong that only a hyperspecialist can do that thing, or making them weak enough that a hyper-specialist can do it every time without fail.

So that kinda puts the devs in the position where they're forcing everyone into a hyperspecialist build, which is bad for build diversity...or they're letting hyperspecialist builds negate the difficulty of R10 by being able to no-fail CC or IK every mob. Neither is healthy for the game.

One of the best changes they ever made to the game was to the Armor Class system. We had monks running around with 80 AC that could only be hit when they rolled a 1, and then we had characters like my cleric wearing full plate armor and a large shield that got hit 95% of the time. A D20 system simply didn't work for AC and it doesn't work for spells either when it is possible to get your required saving throws up to the triple digits. The difference between the worst and best character in the game shouldn't be more than 50% (meaning if the worst character has a 30% chance then the best character has an 80% chance), so they either need to ditch the D20 or the most you can possibly improve your saving throws is +10 over someone that does nothing.

[YUTANG75]

anyone that isn't capped on reaper has customization options.

Don't confuse customization with complexity. In my opinion, the reaper trees in their entirety are unnecessary added complexity. The original problem was that experienced players were finding Elite to easy and grouping was lacklustre. So to solve this, they added... an additional difficulty that gets easier the more you play it???

The simple state of the matter is that because R10 pugs exist we know players are too powerful and reaper mode has failed in its primary purpose.

[cmecu]

This tells me I was right not to invest any time or energy in grinding reaper points.

That and it also tells me that they sit around and think about the most stupid stuff instead of working on actual problems and issues.
Its like they are oblivious to us not having bank space, or major bugs in the game already, or lag, or chat bug where you cant connect to chat server.. what else.. list goes on forever.. Its like they would rather think of all these new things to make the game more complex than it already is.. create more bugs by releasing half finished product.. it just makes no sense. I really think they want this game to come to an end. Im talking about the higher ups who make decisions on the way the game goes, the direction. Those people need to be held accountable. Only way to get action done it to email The owners of the game. Go to the top and email EG7 , I have. They own it. Make them aware of the frustrated people on the forums. Its clear people are sick of how this game is going.

[Zites]

One of the best changes they ever made to the game was to the Armor Class system. We had monks running around with 80 AC that could only be hit when they rolled a 1, and then we had characters like my cleric wearing full plate armor and a large shield that got hit 95% of the time.

True but now DODGE IS KING.

A D20 system simply didn't work for AC and it doesn't work for spells either when it is possible to get your required saving throws up to the triple digits.

This is relative to the class you play however illusion of choice rules the day unfortunately.

The difference between the worst and best character in the game shouldn't be more than 50% (meaning if the worst character has a 30% chance then the best character has an 80% chance), so they either need to ditch the D20 or the most you can possibly improve your saving throws is +10 over someone that does nothing.

The sentiment is kinda right but your suggested implementation is off.

It really come down to the further they move from the (Holy Trinity+1) aka Dungeons & Dragons-

(The original Dungeons & Dragons, Only three main classes: the Cleric, the Fighting man, and the Magic-User. Greyhawk, added the Thief as a fourth main class, as well as the Paladin as a Fighting Man subclass.)

These four fantasy gaming archetypes represent four major tactical roles in play:
1.The Fighter offers direct combat strength and durability
2.Thief offers cunning and stealth
3.Cleric provides support in both combat
4.Magic-User has a variety of magical powers.

-the harder they make their job to balance and Reaper only turns it up to 11 LOL.

[Kelledren]

I do not want server mergers. it would simply limit any growth that might come with a mainstream D&D movie ( or if we're extremely luck, a whole series of them ). Or if they actually tried to fix the new player experience to improve retention of all the new players that try DDO even now.

I don't have a problem finding a group, because when i did, I just moved servers. That option is available to anyone now for free even.

...and I remember the early days when public areas had multiple instances because the population was so high, and they weren't what some people crack them up to be.

I'd rather see them spend the money on rehashing the new player experience ( I'm looking at you, Character Class paths ), because those predetermined paths are frequently why people don't stick around when they try DDO for the first time. It makes them feel like they suck at the game because they're playing with a terrible character build. Soooo many new players are trying out this game all the time... Why not fix the reasons why they're not being retained?

Ok not everyone wants server merges. Those who solo or have specific running mates might not want them. Those of us who pug/TR, raid, would love to have more options similar to HC server. But we want it without extra lag you discussed, thus the changes being discussed. Having a plethora of characters does not make transferring at 2500 points a pop feasible. Plus, until now, you were likely transferring to a similar situation (unless your on Wayfinder).

You are absolutely correct they need to remove the awful paths and have new build tutorials for new players in order to retain even a fraction of them.

[Baahb3]

What you see below is a nominal amount of power that allows builds other than Meta builds to have a chance at running in high skull.

I think this thought is a problem in itself. There should be no expectation that any build gets to run high skull reapers. Zero. R9/10 should be unfairly punitive. If you want to run it without 'cheesing' (i.e. Casters at this point and time) the difficulty, deal with it. As someone else said, it should represent a difficulty where a perfectly formed party would struggle to complete it, not an entitled difficulty for any build.

[Baahb3]

Reaper points are personally earned, not a party buff.

Spot on.

[Zites]

I think this thought is a problem in itself. There should be no expectation that any build gets to run high skull reapers. Zero. R9/10 should be unfairly punitive. If you want to run it without 'cheesing' (i.e. Casters at this point and time) the difficulty, deal with it. As someone else said, it should represent a difficulty where a perfectly formed party would struggle to complete it, not an entitled difficulty for any build.

Here you go a as you say (perfectly formed party struggling to complete R10)
1.

2.

3.

[Baahb3]

Here you go a as you say (perfectly formed party struggling to complete R10)

I said that it should be that way, not that it is that way. And they are all caster runs, i.e. cheesing it, as mentioned in that post.