Quick Question About "Tome of Skill (Tumble)"

[Handsome_Potato_86]

Greetings, forum folks!

Got just a quick question here, regarding skill tomes.
More specifically, for the tumble skill...
Now... The DDO wiki claims, that using one lets you
use the skill without ranks, and i wanted to ask if
anybody around here can confirm or deny that.

Like, if i don't put any points into tumble,
but i slap a skill tome of tumble on there,
can i still utilize the skill by let's say for example
having a high enough DEX modifier?

Thanks in advance for your help in this matter!

[J1NG]

I believe that Tumble is one of those skills where skill point investment is required into it before it can become how its normally used.

Just now, over on Lamannia, took a character with a +2 Tome of Tumble and a +8 Stat tome and TR'd them. I put 0 into Tumble, and with the Tumble +2 Tome and +2 Dex bonus for a +1 Dex modifier (from 10 Dex to 12 after Stat tome application), I have a grand total of 3 Tumble, but 0 ranks in Tumble.

Attempting to tumble, I simply "hop" forwards and backwards (as though I had -1 or less Tumble skill). I do not "roll" as you normally would with skills invested into Tumble and it being in total 1 or higher.

So I would say that the Wiki there is wrong and someone will need to go correct it at some point.

Note, I am unsure how many points invested is required. 1 FULL point, or whether 0.5 (Cross Class) would be enough WITH a tome of Tumble +X will allow you to Tumble normally.

J1NG

[Handsome_Potato_86]

Well...! I do believe your effective tumble skill would have to be
in the positives, in order for it to be... Well, effective.

Meaning that if there is some penalty which lowers the skill
to or below 0, you won't be able to tumble regardless of
whether or not you put points into it...

Huh... Now i'm curious. Might be worth checking out.

[J1NG]

My test did have Tumble in positives; +3 total.

You can go test as well if you want though.

J1NG

[Handsome_Potato_86]

That's the problem i'm having, i can't really go out and test it myself.
Would have to have a tumble tome to spare (and who has that?).

[Handsome_Potato_86]

Question, what class was the character after TR?
I am going through some other forum posts,
and i think it might maybe have to do with
whether or not tumble is a class skill...? Perhaps?

You know, as opposed to being a cross-class skill.

[Suggestion]

That's the problem i'm having, i can't really go out and test it myself.
Would have to have a tumble tome to spare (and who has that?).

Anyone who has an expansion that includes a free skill tome of your choice and is willing to create a test character.

Doing so my tumble went from na to +6. It is hard to if I am actually tumbling or just better at jumping around though.

[wolfy42]

It's always been that you need to invest 1 skill point into tumble, no matter how many bonus points you would have to it from tomes/stats etc, in order for it to apply.

I have, for well decades now, always put 1 point into tumble even as a cross class skill on character creation (x4 points so it's not a huge loss), just to activate tumble. It also reduces damage when you fall, and with stats getting high later on even without dex based builds, that is quite nice. Lets you ignore feather fall items etc unless you need it to get somewhere (but not to avoid falling damage) especially for dex builds.


1 point + any amount of dex, skill boosts (good hope/heroism etc) and even a spell ifyou really want, and you just don't take fall damage pretty much. Doesn't matter much in epic since you prob barely notice the fall damage anyway, but it's sure nice running through heroic.

Snag a +3 tome eventually (I would not waste a +5 skill tome on tumble) and that 1 initial point will put you positive even with a penalty to dex when starting.

Unless they have changed it (which is totally possible), you will not get a bonus from your tome to tumble, until/unless you have invested 1 (or .5 if cross class) points into the skill. Even .5 works though for activating it.

[yfernbottom]

I have never invested more in tumble than needed for fast shallow water travel. I a curious about falling damage.

Is there a threshold that you can get tumble to and take 0 falling damage in any situation? Or will you always take damage if you fall far enough?

[SockyMcSockerton]

I believe that Tumble is one of those skills where skill point investment is required into it before it can become how its normally used.

Just now, over on Lamannia, took a character with a +2 Tome of Tumble and a +8 Stat tome and TR'd them. I put 0 into Tumble, and with the Tumble +2 Tome and +2 Dex bonus for a +1 Dex modifier (from 10 Dex to 12 after Stat tome application), I have a grand total of 3 Tumble, but 0 ranks in Tumble.

Attempting to tumble, I simply "hop" forwards and backwards (as though I had -1 or less Tumble skill). I do not "roll" as you normally would with skills invested into Tumble and it being in total 1 or higher.

So I would say that the Wiki there is wrong and someone will need to go correct it at some point.

Note, I am unsure how many points invested is required. 1 FULL point, or whether 0.5 (Cross Class) would be enough WITH a tome of Tumble +X will allow you to Tumble normally.

J1NG

I don’t know if you need to TR first or if you need to have a certain level of Tome because I never owned a +1 Tumble tome, but I haven’t put a single point into tumble in any of my past dozen+ lives and I tumble just fine with my +4 Tumble tome. Zero skill points invested into Tumble.

[J1NG]

I don’t know if you need to TR first or if you need to have a certain level of Tome because I never owned a +1 Tumble tome, but I haven’t put a single point into tumble in any of my past dozen+ lives and I tumble just fine with my +4 Tumble tome. Zero skill points invested into Tumble.

If this is the case, then we have a few more things to try out and find out what's going on exactly.

1. Either a non invested Tumble skills counts as a hidden modifier until a certain range is reached (so say 10 Tumble or higher counts as normal again). This will need to be tested.

2. As mentioned earlier, possibly particular classes are not impacted by this. A collection of different functioning and non-functioning known states will need to be known first though, as there would be too much for a Lam test to perform all the TR's. Although I suppose I could just do new Level 1s instead as well to test it.

3. It's unlikely to be the use of the tome after TR'ing, otherwise your subsequent TR's should not allow you to Tumble then. So something else must be happening.

Unfortunately, Lam is down today, but I suppose I can still try with Iconics and some Level 1s on Live servers.

J1NG

[Livmo]

It's always been that you need to invest 1 skill point into tumble, no matter how many bonus points you would have to it from tomes/stats etc, in order for it to apply.

I have, for well decades now, always put 1 point into tumble even as a cross class skill on character creation (x4 points so it's not a huge loss), just to activate tumble. It also reduces damage when you fall, and with stats getting high later on even without dex based builds, that is quite nice. Lets you ignore feather fall items etc unless you need it to get somewhere (but not to avoid falling damage) especially for dex builds.


1 point + any amount of dex, skill boosts (good hope/heroism etc) and even a spell ifyou really want, and you just don't take fall damage pretty much. Doesn't matter much in epic since you prob barely notice the fall damage anyway, but it's sure nice running through heroic.

Snag a +3 tome eventually (I would not waste a +5 skill tome on tumble) and that 1 initial point will put you positive even with a penalty to dex when starting.

Unless they have changed it (which is totally possible), you will not get a bonus from your tome to tumble, until/unless you have invested 1 (or .5 if cross class) points into the skill. Even .5 works though for activating it.

This is my understanding as well.

Typically I crunch those tomes for crafting mats (ebberon fragments), since I already have max Tumble tomes. I suppose I can create a toon on WayWay and test on one of the expansion tomes and take 1 Tumble on char. creation. I'm tired and hungry, thus I may forget after pizzas and drinks. Intrigued by the thought though.

[J1NG]

I don’t know if you need to TR first or if you need to have a certain level of Tome because I never owned a +1 Tumble tome, but I haven’t put a single point into tumble in any of my past dozen+ lives and I tumble just fine with my +4 Tumble tome. Zero skill points invested into Tumble.

So I just performed some tests:

Level 1 Ranger, 0 ranks in Tumble, total mod with guild buffs, +3 tome of Tumble, Mask of Spider, bard song, Good Hope, Greater Herorism, etc and I have a total Skill Mod of 25. I "hop", any direction. I gain the Tumble spell effect from the Marketplace, I can tumble (roll) in any direction with a score as little as 5 (start at level 1) with the bonus of the Tumble spell effect that grants the ability to Tumble as though you had ranks invested into it.

Level 7 Monk, 0 ranks in Tumble, tested at every level, total mod with guild buffs in the end, +3 tome of Tumble, etc, and I have a total Skill Mod of 35. I still "hop", any direction. The moment I gain the Tumble spell effect from the Marketplace (Mod of 45 Tumble), I can tumble (dive) in any direction. For this test I also took Skill Focus: Tumble, as well as Acrobatic. Neither helped. I also have an item with +3 Tumble on it as well, and this does not impact on the ability to Tumble from 0 ranks to normal Tumbles.

So under normal circumstances, I doubt the tome alone is what is making it possible to tumble. +4 or otherwise. Especially since at Level 1 you only get the use of +2 skills from a +3 or higher skill tome. So the tome itself "shouldn't" be the cause of activating it as though you had ranks in Tumble.

I am however, considering whether it might be possible that one of the following might be permitting players to do so, and they haven't realised it:

Epic Destiny Past Life Martial : Skills bonus
or
Tabaxi Racial 1 Past Life : Tumble bonus
or
Completionist Past Life: +2 Stats +2 All Skills

In theory, these should not be the cause of the ability to grant what some players have observed as being able to tumble with 0 ranks invested. Had Lamannia still been up, I could have tested all three, as I have a Tabaxi, Martial Past Life Skills and a Completioinist on hand, just they're not at stages where I can test this as I always take Tumble on my toons. So would have needed to Reincarnate them in some fashion to test it, and without Lamannia, that would be a bit harder to perform.

If anyone else is on the cusp of Reincarnating with any one of these conditions (Tabaxi 1 Past Life gained, Epic Destiny Past Life Martial : Skills gained, or Completionist) and doesn't mind spending their first level with zero (0) ranks in Tumble, they should be able to test this out and confirm or eliminate them as what makes it possible.

J1NG

:: edit ::

Forgot to add, that the second toon; Monk Level 7, also tested with Action Boost Skills on as well. And under no situation did that help to make the toon go from "hop" to "roll" or "dive" tumble.

[droid327]

I would imagine any of the "must invest 1" skills need a hard point first - otherwise you could use Disable and Open on non trap builds

[J1NG]

I would imagine any of the "must invest 1" skills need a hard point first - otherwise you could use Disable and Open on non trap builds

It's always been that you need to invest 1 skill point into tumble, no matter how many bonus points you would have to it from tomes/stats etc, in order for it to apply.

This is my understanding as well.

Typically I crunch those tomes for crafting mats (ebberon fragments), since I already have max Tumble tomes. I suppose I can create a toon on WayWay and test on one of the expansion tomes and take 1 Tumble on char. creation. I'm tired and hungry, thus I may forget after pizzas and drinks. Intrigued by the thought though.

Much like these previous posters, this is also my experience and understanding as well.

However, given OP asked specifically about Level 1, and two forum posters have suggested that it does work for them, some investigation would be prudent over the matter. However, tests performed thus far does not suggest it is possible under normal circumstances as queried by OP (who makes no mention of Tabaxi Past Life, Martial Past Life, or Completionist, which "may" alter the end result. Lam testing will confirm or eliminate these when it next comes up however)

J1NG

[Livmo]

Much like these previous posters, this is also my experience and understanding as well.

However, given OP asked specifically about Level 1, and two forum posters have suggested that it does work for them, some investigation would be prudent over the matter. However, tests performed thus far does not suggest it is possible under normal circumstances as queried by OP (who makes no mention of Tabaxi Past Life, Martial Past Life, or Completionist, which "may" alter the end result. Lam testing will confirm or eliminate these when it next comes up however)

J1NG

I got stuck at charecter name last night and went to bed. I do have empty slots. I can be patient to see what you put through the lama. I didn't want to mash the keyboard in frustration and get some funky name I can't figure out if I keep the toon and try to reincarnate : ) )

[KoobTheProud]

I have never invested more in tumble than needed for fast shallow water travel. I a curious about falling damage.

Is there a threshold that you can get tumble to and take 0 falling damage in any situation? Or will you always take damage if you fall far enough?

I occasionally have a character with maxed out tumble and I believe you can get to normal zero falling damage except on falls that auto-kill.

[Mindos]

Much like these previous posters, this is also my experience and understanding as well.

However, given OP asked specifically about Level 1, and two forum posters have suggested that it does work for them, some investigation would be prudent over the matter. However, tests performed thus far does not suggest it is possible under normal circumstances as queried by OP (who makes no mention of Tabaxi Past Life, Martial Past Life, or Completionist, which "may" alter the end result. Lam testing will confirm or eliminate these when it next comes up however)

J1NG

I wonder if these "working at level 1" cases are because of some carry over from the past life, such as how sometimes skill points are not correct/tomes not applied etc until a relog after first reincarnating.

[J1NG]

I wonder if these "working at level 1" cases are because of some carry over from the past life, such as how sometimes skill points are not correct/tomes not applied etc until a relog after first reincarnating.

It's possible I guess with regards to skill points actually linger after a TR, however, in previous such examples, it was a very clear addition that was unaccounted for. Which does not appear to be the case here for the players who are suggesting that they invested 0 to the skill modifier.

Whilst not conclusive and encompassing, the first test I did (in this thread) was specifically to TR and not relog (had plenty of Tumble prior to TR) before coming in (having used the tome before the TR) and it did not tumble at 0 ranks, despite the modifier being 3 (positive).

So that should eliminate that possibility (something persisting) as a possible cause of being able to Tumble with 0 ranks invested in afterwards, unless if it's a buggy exploit bug (of which there are many) so therefore also does not apply under normal circumstances (which is what OP is asking about).

However, of note, is that a player has mentioned it works for them (0 ranks) happens to have multiple lives under them. This then leaves the three potential sources of persistent skill boosts that may impact on the matter: Tabaxi Past Life 1, Heroic Completionist, or Epic Past Life Martial : Skills.

As Tome, Cross Class/Class Skill, TR, 31 Tumble (at level 1 with 0 invested), Greater Heroism, Good Hope, Skill Song, Guild Buff, Item buff, Enhancements, Feats and even Action Boost Skills were tried and none worked to provide normal tumble (roll or dive), until a Tumble Spell was applied. So that should be fairly conclusive on that front. Just need to eliminate those 3 possibilities and we should have an undoubted answer for OP's question.

J1NG

[J1NG]

Just to update this for certainty, as I've just tried this over on Lamannia:

I just tried with a Past Life Tabaxi. No tumble is activated.
I just tried with Epic Past Life Martial : Skills. No tumble is activated.
I just tried with Heroic Completionist. No tumble is activated.
I also tried a +4 Skill Tome Tumble (just in case). No tumble is activated.

You only ever "hop" Tumble. Not "roll" or "dive" Tumble (which are the real "Tumble" animations).

So in relation to OP question. No feature (Tome, Guild Buff, Feat, Action Boost, Enhancement, Past Life, Spell effect) that is NOT the "Tumble" spell (Via Hardcastle in the Marketplace or the spell cast on yourself), will allow you to "Tumble" proper without an investment of at least ONE point of skill into the Tumble Skill first.

J1NG