U58 Preview 2: Blightcaster

[capsela]

Why not update acid rain/fog so that they... Hmm, I don't know, hmm, let's think about this together...
I got it! Make them actually do something! Yeah, that would be cool.

[Bjond]

Sick concept. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Don't have much feedback for this one, since I don't play druids. Here's a little bit: add scaling notes to the descriptions (I'm assuming all the piercing things are force-power scaled thought I didn't see it stated). Perhaps include something more substantial rather than just damage type and artwork changes: disease & poison are rather naturally associated with reduced performance. This entire theme would really fit quite nicely into a debuffer role: movement, attack rate, M/PRR, accuracy, (etc) reductions would fit very well here and would put a big draw on playing or having one of these types of characters in a group or raid -- it would be more than a "three and done" class for completionists.

The only disagreeable part to me is the removable of heal and mass regen. They're utterly central to druids and it rather guts the class. Reducing it's heal output in any way puts it in competition with Sorcerer as a pure-DPS and there's nothing even remotely close to making it on-par with Sorc in the changes I've seen.

[droid327]

The only disagreeable part to me is the removable of heal and mass regen. They're utterly central to druids and it rather guts the class. Reducing it's heal output in any way puts it in competition with Sorcerer as a pure-DPS and there's nothing even remotely close to making it on-par with Sorc in the changes I've seen.

Burst self-healing is far more of a concern for soloing than grouping...and for soloing, you're going to be stacking lots of Death Eater stacks. That constant stream of temp HP is going to offset a lot of incoming DPS, which makes HOTs like Vigor more practical than they are for standard Druids.

For healing others, yeah its not a heal class...but I'd compare it more with a Wizard than a Sorc, since it seems to have more martial abilities similar to an EK/PM. Neither of the Blight forms seem as purely glass-cannon caster as Elemental forms do for standard Druid.

[Bjond]

constant stream of temp HP is going to offset a lot of incoming DPS, which makes HOTs like Vigor more practical than they are for standard Druids

Unfortunately, it's an on-kill ability and only applied to the druid; ie. it's going to suffer the same fate as blackrazor and souleater -- use in a group makes it pointless since you didn't get the kill. It's also self-applied temporary HP, which is only useful if you're tanking, but the tanking tree was removed. I'd guess when grouped for XP, you might build up a little buffer for taking an extra hit, but that's it (a 500 HP stack at cap is worth less than half of one hit there). Completely pointless in most raids where there's just not enough trash regularly dying specifically to you to trigger it.

HA! Here's an idea: sure, strip Heal and all the vigors and regen, but replace with versions that apply a stacking (with themselves not each other) TMP HP buff to the target; eg. blightshield for regen that pops a power-scaled tmp-hp buff to the target where each of those buff stacks with itself (only) and applies the same debuff cleansing effect, but when the stack is destroyed rather than on application. Now that would be an interesting kind of "healer" -- kinda like the FFXIV Scholar. I had a lot of fun playing that in FFXIV. The style permits you to be proactive on heals, but otherwise work a rotation for some extra DPS.

The problem with adding a "tmp heal" healer, though, is it's synergistic balance effect on grouping and raiding when there's potentially a regular healer and a tank, too. It would definitely need some serious balance attention.

[Xezom]

That makes sense. The thorns spells are their own type (and force) but are not considered acid or poison spells in of themselves.

-T

Glad to help figure out what the culprit was. Hopefully the immunity strip will work on the thorn spells in preview 3/live since there’s t5 point that adds poison or acid to your thorn spells. It also helps with using the poison or acid dragonic mantle. Poison especially since poison force is easier to build as negative and force do come together but poison is harder to use due to immunities.

If they’re not supposed to strip immunity, I’d add a note that states that, “your poison and acid spells remove poison and acid immunity.” Rather than “your spells remove poison and acid immunity.”

[Lotoc]

I kinda have to agree here. I don't think I've seen many Archetype threads where someone ISN'T asking for them to be healed by negative energy. Right now we've got pale masters (and any splash into), Abyss Warlocks (albeit very rare to see), and Dark Apostates (and any splash) that can heal from negative energy. I don't think we need a whole lot more otherwise it loses its uniqueness as a mechanic. If there were another class that I'd say SHOULD have a negative healing option, it would be something like an Oathbreaker Paladin (Dark Paladin). I don't think, or personally even want, every class to have an option to heal from negative energy.

Considering Oathbreaker is a 5e thing (DDO paladins don't even have oaths to break, they're deity focused) and the archetypes thus far are pretty much centered around 3.5 prestige classes Bone Knight is probably the more likely undead archetype for martials, especially considering it's an Eberron setting prestige class related to Karnath as a region.

[Xezom]

Considering Oathbreaker is a 5e thing (DDO paladins don't even have oaths to break, they're deity focused) and the archetypes thus far are pretty much centered around 3.5 subclasses Bone Knight is probably the more likely undead archetype for martials, especially considering it's an Eberron setting prestige class related to Karnath as a region.

Oath breaker was just a name I was throwing out, and wasn’t intended as a point of reference to any certain dnd edition. My point was just that the only remaining archetype/subclass set up that I could justifiably see needing negative healing would be a fallen Paladin/tank of some sort. A Bone knight sounds more fitting by the name (know nothing of the actual subclass but one can guess).

I’m not 100% sure where the infatuation with negative healing came from (my guess is the popularity of pale masters and introduction of dark apostates), but to me it should be a flavor used sparingly, not a spice thrown into every recipe.

[Lotoc]

I’m not 100% sure where the infatuation with negative healing came from (my guess is the popularity of pale masters and introduction of dark apostates), but to me it should be a flavor used sparingly, not a spice thrown into every recipe.

personally I mostly like undead builds for the immunities and when it comes to Dark Apostate it's very satisfying having spells which heal yourself and nuke everything around you (Mass Inflicts) that don't fall off hard after level 10 like NEB.

[Zeklijan]

Perhaps include something more substantial rather than just damage type and artwork changes: disease & poison are rather naturally associated with reduced performance. This entire theme would really fit quite nicely into a debuffer role: movement, attack rate, M/PRR, accuracy, (etc) reductions would fit very well here and would put a big draw on playing or having one of these types of characters in a group or raid -- it would be more than a "three and done" class for completionists.

I agree! I'm definitely hoping to see some interesting debuff spells that are form-specific to Hive and Thorn.

The only disagreeable part to me is the removable of heal and mass regen. They're utterly central to druids and it rather guts the class. Reducing it's heal output in any way puts it in competition with Sorcerer as a pure-DPS and there's nothing even remotely close to making it on-par with Sorc in the changes I've seen.

Personally, I don't think it's that bad. Mass Greater Vigor is still a really good spell, and you have regenerate for your own self healing. Even without heal, cure spells and Mass regenerate, Blight druid will be far ahead in terms of healing to a sorcerer, who needs to use epic destinies to get any healing.

Base druid will be the better choice for a healer, and I think that's okay.

[Duhboy]

The only things I have a problem with Blightcaster other than losing Heal is that alot of the acid spells such as Acid Rain for example is not being able to be heightened and "Thorns in your side is not affecting the new Grasping Thorns spell despite it being a thorn spell.

[Xezom]

I agree! I'm definitely hoping to see some interesting debuff spells that are form-specific to Hive and Thorn.



Personally, I don't think it's that bad. Mass Greater Vigor is still a really good spell, and you have regenerate for your own self healing. Even without heal, cure spells and Mass regenerate, Blight druid will be far ahead in terms of healing to a sorcerer, who needs to use epic destinies to get any healing.

Base druid will be the better choice for a healer, and I think that's okay.

I like the idea of form specific debuffs. That would definitely help differentiate the two set-ups for casters even better. Right now the forms are very close, as is the Water and Fire elementals, but there is lots of room to make them more defined. Thorn kin focus more of physical spells and splash poison, so debuffing around PRR would be a solid way to go, while Hive is more Acid and Poison so MRR would be better for them. Provides a way to contribute meaningful debuffs to a team on top of your 4 penalty to all saves.

I also agree I'm okay with base druid being better for healing than Blight casters. Thematically it makes more sense. Blightcasters aren't really supposed to be healers, kinda goes against the whole celebrating death thing. I NEVER want an Archetype to be released that is just the outright equal and/or better than the base class in all capacities. The idea was that Archetypes explore different play-styles, hit different marks, and fill different roles than their base types. Under no circumstance should an Archetype just be "base class 2.0." Which is why I'm perfectly fine with Archetypes losing something "signature" to the base class. Without that old signature, it pushes them into having to define their own niche, not just replay the old one with a new name.

Playing with the HoT's only means needing to be a more proactive healer, not reactive healing. For a damage dealing caster, Blightcasters are miles ahead in terms of healing than sorcs or non-pale master wizards. I sorta view their healing capacity like that of a bard. They have the ability to contribute heals in a pinch, but it shouldn't be their main focus. They're still useful in groups, as it's never bad to have more access to party healing. Where they really shine is small group and solo. Between Death Eater and self sustain they are very safe solo/small group casters since maintaining Death Eater is much easier in smaller groups than in say raids. Sorta reminds me of the old days of seeing Warforged Wizards running around for the ability to self-repair.

[Skyael]

I like the idea of form specific debuffs.

I agree that a few unique debuffs would fit perfectly with the theme of Blightcaster too.

[newmart]

I think that removing all summons and pet is overpenalyzing the bligthcaster. Removing all fire spells, access to better defence in protector and healing spells its more than enough to compensate the improved instakiling, supposing that either water, fire, thorn or hive does equal dmg. Water still has a good debuff and CC through Mantle of Icy Soul, not present here. You could add a more restrictive list, of plant and insect summons. Spider ally would be TOP.

I would add one of the removed diseases and give them a slow effect. The decreased PRR for Thorn spells and MRR for Hive spells i see as a must. This would give a more defined debuff aspect of the class.

I hate, in any game, when in the sake of balance they turn all classes the same thing with same numbers, only changing the color of the numbers. Classes and archetypes must be different from each other, to shine in different moments.

[Xezom]

I think that removing all summons and pet is overpenalyzing the bligthcaster. Removing all fire spells, access to better defence in protector and healing spells its more than enough to compensate the improved instakiling, supposing that either water, fire, thorn or hive does equal dmg. Water still has a good debuff and CC through Mantle of Icy Soul, not present here. You could add a more restrictive list, of plant and insect summons. Spider ally would be TOP.

I would add one of the removed diseases and give them a slow effect. The decreased PRR for Thorn spells and MRR for Hive spells i see as a must. This would give a more defined debuff aspect of the class.

I hate, in any game, when in the sake of balance they turn all classes the same thing with same numbers, only changing the color of the numbers. Classes and archetypes must be different from each other, to shine in different moments.

Definitely agree with the last part. I'm not a huge fan of reskins. I like different play-styles and niches between classes and set ups.

Its a bit late in the development for it, but now that you mention it it would be cool if instead of a wolf companion Thorn Kin could raise a Needle Blight (think Yester Hill) and the Hive Master could raise a biting swarm. I know pets and summons are kind of a pain on the server load and getting them to function correctly, especially the equip-able ones.

I still hold out hopes that one day we will see a dedicated ACTIVE summoner. There is a lot of support in the game spread out all over pertaining to charmed, hirelings, pets, summons. I'm waiting for the day when true summoners make their way to DDO. Where your active skills/spells are ordering your summons. There would be a pretty good amount of engineering and AI work needed I'm sure sure to make that possible, but I'm way off subject now.

[newmart]

Definitely agree with the last part. I'm not a huge fan of reskins. I like different play-styles and niches between classes and set ups.

Its a bit late in the development for it, but now that you mention it it would be cool if instead of a wolf companion Thorn Kin could raise a Needle Blight (think Yester Hill) and the Hive Master could raise a biting swarm. I know pets and summons are kind of a pain on the server load and getting them to function correctly, especially the equip-able ones.


I still hold out hopes that one day we will see a dedicated ACTIVE summoner. There is a lot of support in the game spread out all over pertaining to charmed, hirelings, pets, summons. I'm waiting for the day when true summoners make their way to DDO. Where your active skills/spells are ordering your summons. There would be a pretty good amount of engineering and AI work needed I'm sure sure to make that possible, but I'm way off subject now.

Yeah, its a bit late, that's because I suggested a simple summon, already at disposal (the spider). Using pets with reasonable durability already demands a lot of feats, including the legendary feat, which is a lot for a caster build. Keeping the companion and summons will not raise this archetype above others by any means, but expand the possibility of a more summon oriented caster. The tree also has synergy with Feydark illusionist in the force spellpower, so its an additional way to justify augument summoning taking. Also has a striking synergy with Primal Posion path, that has an thematic appropriate summon (that could be modified to use some of the new spells, contagion and poison), in order to do less dmg than cold path, but a bit more debilitation and overtime decay.

The way the tree is now it's very hard to justify augment summoning taking early lvs to use the lv30 summon so late.

The tree also indicates a pet, the raven, and while I believe that is an inexpensive and interesting synergy between trees, any summoning would remove this pet (this should really be changed since keeps working, but despawns the animation) so the way to go its to keep an ally. Since they are giving a new ally to the ranger, I really believe they will rework all these pets someday, but when we reach out there, a spider companion with some web lands and the poisonous attack would be VERY thematic and appropriate (casting posion and melf acid arrow spell at later levels could u imagine that! Think in whispherdoom!!!). Obviously, there are other insects like beetles and bees already at our disposal and would be very interesting to have them as options to summon.

Druid class also has its brandmark versatility, cutting tanking options, healing, AND summoning seems too much, keep the pet options and reduced tanking and healing its very ok.

[Gnominal_Aphasia]

So the blightcaster gets no wild empathy.

Taking extra wild empathy in natures warrior tier 1 does not grant you any wild empathy feat.

This means we can't use the tier 2 "Flight" which is really good and a prerequisite for other enhancements.

Is this working as intended?

Seems off.

This is pertinent. Nature's Warrier has two tier 1 "abilities" that effect Wild Empathy charges:
(1) Extra Wild Empathy: +1/+2/+3 Wild Empathy and Improved Wild Empathy uses per rest, and +5/+10/+15 Positive Spellpower;
(2) Athletic: tier 3 +1 WE and IWE use per rest.
These both fuel the tier 2 ability (3) Flight which provides +20% dodge for 10/20/30 seconds (Activation cost is 1 WE charge).

To keep the same spirit of the mechanic but respecting SSG's decision to remove WE as a theme for Blightcaster, it would be perhaps elegant to change the NW tier 1 into multisectors based on Druid type as well as the tier 2 offering an alternative to Flight for the Blightcaster...

(1') Extra Blight Bite [see below] charges; +1/+2/+3 and +5/+10/+15 Acid, Force and Poison Spellpower;
(2') Athletic: tier 3 +1 Blight Bite charge, and
(3') Blight Bite Action Boost replacing Flight as a multiselector option adding [say] +1/+2/+3 imbue dice for 20 seconds.

It would be one way out of the problem.

[capsela]

ACID FOG
Description:
A billowing mass of misty vapors causes several effects:

Slows movement (~-5%).
Obscures sight, giving all creatures in the fog concealment (Attackers have 20% miss chance).
Deals 2d6 acid damage every 2 seconds to targets within the cloud.
Enemies within this cloud also suffer a -4 penalty to their armor class.
Notes:
The movement speed reduction is very small and almost un-noticable after recent nerfs. Perhaps -5% at best.

Also unlike many other persistent AOE, it has no initial tic, making this a rather poor spell for dealing damage. Acid Rain is far superior for this purpose.

Immunity notes:
Purple named are immune to most effects of this spell - only the damage and armor class penalty applies.

Red named are immune to only the slowing portion.

Also due to the way freedom of movement is programmed, in addition to preventing the slow, it also provides immunity to the miss chance from this spell for any monsters that cast/possess it.

2d6
2d6
2d6
2d6
lol 2d6
i cast it and say "I farted" in chat
That's the only purpose of "acid fog". All the persistant AOEs need updating. Whatever, don't do it. I don't even care.

[Scrag]

ACID FOG
Description:
A billowing mass of misty vapors causes several effects:
...
That's the only purpose of "acid fog". All the persistant AOEs need updating. Whatever, don't do it. I don't even care.

I have posted elsewhere about acid rain, acid fog. i picked up ice storm because it has some sort of slow that doesnt seem to work frequently. niacs biting cold... doesnt bite. I can spend an equal amount of sp on a maximized (insert anything i have lots of spellpower for) aoe spell and blow things out of the water with one shot, maybe two. I only use ice storm as a precursor and then spam acid blast and cone of cold when I am pretty outgunned. Otherwise, these dots just don't do anything for me! :/

[droid327]

All the persistant AOEs need updating. .

Yes, and they need more than just damage scaling too - though that's a big part of it

Damage scaling first, but they're always going to be disadvantageous mechanically because DDO doesnt really reward you - especially casters - for staying in one spot and facetanking packs of enemies. So they either need to do REALLY BIG damage to warrant the sacrifice to mobility (or having to chain it with CC spells, which require a whole separate set of tradeoffs to be effective)....or they need to be "sticky" DOTs that apply in the field but keep ticking even if the mob leaves...or they need to have a useful secondary debuff component that will give the spell value beyond its pure DPS

The update to BDB (and Melfs for lower level) is a good start, shortening the tick time shows they understand that long DOTs arent tactically useful in a fast-paced game like DDO...hopefully they keep the ball rolling down the Acid spell list.

[Bjond]

Neither of the Blight forms seem as purely glass-cannon caster as Elemental

They're worse defense-wise than Elementals, IMHO. Next char I'm working on is a caster/tank druid. I tried mocking up blight caster to see if I should wait. Nope, water elemental isn't just a little better. It's phenomenally better as a tank: PRR+40, MRR+27, Slow debuff, Immunity Strip, Heals, and there's a matching Draconic form for the breath strike. There's no force-dragon for blight. You're stuck with acid and no immunity strip. Blight defense shines in heroic R1, but that's "uh, who cares?" The only thing that improves heroic XP rate is runspeed. More survival doesn't matter in heroics. Sadly, even more DPS/AE doesn't matter as much as runspeed for heroic.

IMHO, they've got a great overall thematic pick. Good job on that one. Next step is to decide exactly what the finale role of each type is supposed to be and give them the features they need to fit that role. They seem to have skipped that stage and are just fishing about with tiny fluffy thematic changes. Make it really work first. THEN go back and fluffy it up with nice stories and text about the how/why of the mechs to fit the theme. Story is oh so much more malleable than meta.

WildShape - Thorn Knight:: immune to mind & drown, 10% pierce, 5% blunt, 10% exceptional AC

WildShape - Hive Master:: immune to mind & and KD, tumble ethereal, 50% concealment, Improved Evasion, diplomacy-15

Knight's AC bonus is pointless in both heroic and epic. In heroic you have so much that more doesn't matter and in epic you need so much to make a difference that this does nothing. The 10/5 absorb is OK, but a fair bit worse than the 40 PRR an Elemental has (20 Protector 20 Elemental Toughness), particularly since it doesn't cover slashing. And, it has no magical defenses compared to the 20~26 MRR gained from protector for an Elemental.

Hive's concealment is a troll. Looks cool, does nothing due to the reaper nerf. Only raids are run non-reaper and some raids also just ignore it, particularly VOD which also includes agro-rinse on all the mobs (thus everyone might take a hit now and then before tanks can reacquire). If you want this to be nice, you've got a mandatory "run in SD Mantle" requirement to boost total conceal to 75% (25% in reaper). I've done that with a couple tanky builds and it's "OK". It is definitely nicer sub-cap mid-reaper or versus trash, but does nothing for bosses. I ultimately punted this style, though, because other ED Mantles gave better results in terms of both my char tanking/surviving and group surviving (US & EA .. particularly EA).

If you have decent reflex, I.Evasion and Evasion are effectively identical. It's more of a cheap way to gain NFOO if you're in SD Destiny. I used to love NFOO Reflex, but then I started running without it to actually see how much it mattered (ie. did I love it due to the concept or the reality?). It really does almost nothing. Now and then you take a manageable hit. If you need to choose NFOO feats, it's Fortitude >> Will >> Reflex. I want to like this one, but I know better.

So, effectively defenses are worse than water elemental EXCEPT for non-reaper or r1 heroics. Then it has more or even a lot more.

---

BTW, the interesting defense pieces to me when making a tanky caster are the mind & KD immunity. I'd assume KD isn't true immunity, just what we have now, but that's still nice enough to permit avoiding US (with a shield) or GMOF and taking a real caster tree -- that's pretty big. However, they're obviously aiming these at DPS by stripping out defenses and heals. DPS doesn't much care about KD immunity. Tanks and healers NEED it. DPS just likes it.

Mind? Let's just say SSG's track record with the word immunity is so bad I wouldn't even believe them if they jumped up and down shouting "it works, it's real, it works!" And, by works, I mean everywhere and all cases (aka immunity rather than "immunity"), including versus all Kopru & Flayer abilities. If it doesn't work versus those, it's pointless flavor text.

Minor peeve: WATER elementals can drown, at least according to wiki. This seems like a gross thematic faux pas to me, worsened by fire elementals being able to breath water (fire ele should instantly die, loose their form, or at least take a cold dot while in water, not grin and sing "splish splash, taking a bath!"). In-water features are extremely fluffy, but I'd do 'em like this:

• water: breath & swim+50 .. water is their natural home
• fire: looses form, small cold dot, or Hamp-50 .. should HATE being in water (really steams 'em up ..)
• thorn: small HOT, debuff cleanse, or Hamp+50 bonus .. plants feed on water, should grow/heal in it
• hive: swim-50, Hamp-20, no ethereal tumble .. normal flying insects drown in it and certainly can't "fly" in it.