U58 Preview 2: Blightcaster

[plant_power]

We have repro'd this internally and think we know where the problem is.

-T

I actually ran into something similar lessering a multiclassed dark apostate on live. I was rogue/dark apostate/wizard shadar kai with 8 int, and I noticed that once I started taking dark apostate levels, I was only getting 1 skill point per level on subsequent rogue and wizard levels. I also couldn't select any wizard spells while leveling up to inscribe.

[Strimtom]

Here are some bugs I found:

(BUG) Blight debuff applies when casting spells on yourself or friends, which is a bug
(BUG) Blighted Breath does 0 damage
(BUG) Spike growth does not appear to be effect by child of summer or Thorn kin, when it is both a thorn and a force spell.
(BUG) Thornbloom doesn't fully cast when you use quicken, making it do nothing if quickened

[Zeklijan]

(BUG) Blighted Breath does 0 damage

I've encountered this bug when I first logged in, and when I turned on an imbue it now applies damage. Since then, I've been unable to replicate any condition that would make it stop doing damage anymore. It seems to be a one time thing?

[Atremus]

WildShape - Hive Master:

You have become one with the swarm. Your body shifts between yourself and a cloud of insects, as you merge in and out of the swarm.

• You are considered vermin for the purposes of immunities and are immune to mind effects and knock down.
• +3 bonus to caster level and max caster level of Poison and Acid Spells
• You are ethereal to monsters while tumbling.
• You gain 50% concealment as displacement and Improved Evasion.
• You gain +2 Imbue Dice and +1 to Reflex saves for every 2 druid levels (Max 10)
• 15% vulnerability to cold and -15 on diplomacy checks (Yeah Jeff is just pretty creepy now).

Was knocked over in Grim & Barret end fight. Not sure if knock down immunity works or knock over immunity is bypassed just because the monsters are plants. Rerunning to see if it happens again.

Melf's Acid Arrow - Now does 1d6 acid damage per caster level (Max caster level 10 for 10d6). Applies damage and ticks twice again over 4 seconds (Damage occurs 3 times in total)

Black Dragon Bolt - is being updated to do 1d10 acid damage per caster level (Max caster level 25, caps at 25 to 250 damage). Applies damage and ticks twice again over 4 seconds (Damage occurs 3 times in total)

Both of these still feel underwhelming even with Master of Earth boosting Melf Arrow.

[Skyael]

Blighted Breath's damage is underwhelming, 1d6+2/CL is too low damage for a 5th level spell.

Also, most of the new spells use irregular formulas. Allow me to explain what I mean. When the spell pass happened, the general formula for most spells seemed to be 1d6 + 1 per level of the spell / caster level. For example, a first level spell would deal 1d6+1/CL and a 4th level spell 1d6+4/CL. Most spells scale up to maximum CL 10 for 3rd levels and under, most 4th-5th levels scale to 15 CL max, 6th-7th up to 20 CL, and 8+ 25 CL or higher. I imagine this was the design for consistency between different casters, but I could be wrong.

Now let's look at the new spells.
1st level: Thorn Strike - 1d6+1/CL max 10. This is exactly the expected numbers with the above.
2nd level: Splinterbolt - 1d6+4/CL max 10. The expected numbers would be 1d6+2/CL
3rd level: Thorn Bloom - 1d6+4/CL max 10. The expect numbers would be 1d6+3/CL (The same as fireball and Acid Blast)
5th level: Blighted Breath 1d6+2/CL or 1d8+2/CL max 15. The expected numbers would be 1d6+5/CL (Like Cometfall or Lightning Ball)
6th Level: Thorn Wave 1d6+5/CL max 15. Expected numbers would be 1d6+6 max 20 (Like chain lightning and Ottilukes sphere)
8th level: Thorn Lance 1d6+8/CL max 20. The dice here is correct, but the expected CL would be 25 (like polar ray)

Now, those are all design choices, and if the devs decided those were appropriate numbers for the spell and intentionally differed from other comparable spells... then there is not much I can add here. It is entirely in their right to do so. However, wether they decide to keep the current values as they are or not, one thing is clear to me.

1d6+2/CL for blighted breath is low damage for a 5th level spell.

[Xezom]

Blighted Breath's damage is underwhelming, 1d6+2/CL is too low damage for a 5th level spell.

Also, most of the new spells use irregular formulas. Allow me to explain what I mean. When the spell pass happened, the general formula for most spells seemed to be 1d6 + 1 per level of the spell / caster level. For example, a first level spell would deal 1d6+1/CL and a 4th level spell 1d6+4/CL. Most spells scale up to maximum CL 10 for 3rd levels and under, most 4th-5th levels scale to 15 CL max, 6th-7th up to 20 CL, and 8+ 25 CL or higher. I imagine this was the design for consistency between different casters, but I could be wrong.

Now let's look at the new spells.
1st level: Thorn Strike - 1d6+1/CL max 10. This is exactly the expected numbers with the above.
2nd level: Splinterbolt - 1d6+4/CL max 10. The expected numbers would be 1d6+2/CL
3rd level: Thorn Bloom - 1d6+4/CL max 10. The expect numbers would be 1d6+3/CL (The same as fireball and Acid Blast)
5th level: Blighted Breath 1d6+2/CL or 1d8+2/CL max 15. The expected numbers would be 1d6+5/CL (Like Cometfall or Lightning Ball)
6th Level: Thorn Wave 1d6+5/CL max 15. Expected numbers would be 1d6+6 max 20 (Like chain lightning and Ottilukes sphere)
8th level: Thorn Lance 1d6+8/CL max 20. The dice here is correct, but the expected CL would be 25 (like polar ray)

Now, those are all design choices, and if the devs decided those were appropriate numbers for the spell and intentionally differed from other comparable spells... then there is not much I can add here. It is entirely in their right to do so. However, wether they decide to keep the current values as they are or not, one thing is clear to me.

1d6+2/CL for blighted breath is low damage for a 5th level spell.

They're even more irregular than even this post suggests.

Thorn Strike is actually 1d3+4 not 1d6+1. The SLA is wrong in it's numbers. The spell book version is correct (5-7 range).
Splinterbolt still has its mini-hit on it (no idea where the extra damage is coming from but it does). Giving it more damage than it's higher than average damage number would even suggest.
Grasping Thorns is WAY off if you look at spells by level 1d6 for a level 6 spell is way low, but given it's capacity as a hard CC and damage spell it's understandable. It also matches Blade Barrier, another physical area persistent effect, so not sure.
My thought on Thorn Bloom being a little higher than average is because it's a short range cone spell, so it's less spammy in most circumstances due to it's short range.

Blighted Breath is definitely a strange one since it's average damage even with the riskier poison version is about 25% less than you'd expect from a level 5 spell, using standard progression (6.5 vs 8.5 standard). I think the idea was that since poison is a riskier choice to use, due to many things having immunity to it, it should be stronger than the fairly safe acid damage which is about 35% lower than standard (5.5 average vs 8.5).

Although correct me if I'm wrong but cometfall is a level 6 spell and is 1d6+3 is it not (at least on FVS I know it is)? Making it's progression even with Blighted Breath Poison form and it's one spell level higher.

I do agree that it could use a bump up. To say that the numbers in this archetype are atypical is a bit of an understatement, though they did tell us when archtypes started part of the reason for doing them was to be able to do some funky things. Number progression must be one of them. When effects start getting added to spells (blind from Blighted Breath, knocked down from Comet Fall) it starts getting messy as it then becomes a matter of determining how much damage that form of CC is worth. I personally like atypical progressions. It keeps things from feeling like just a reskinned version of every other spell out there.

[Zeklijan]

I've found a few bugs that are new from this preview, some of which were in the last. Many were fixed, so that's pretty good to see

Here's what's broken in this preview:

Spell Bugs
Greater Vigor is missing from the level 6 spells
Black Dragon Bolt (8th level spell) only deals it’s damage 2 times instead of 3
The new thorn spells are not affected by Draconic Incarnation Core 3's Eschew Material. (It will still consume material)
The new thorn spells are not affected by the bonus to caster level from season herald's Child of Summer
New thorn spells missing their DnD Dice in descriptions
Thorn Bloom does not deal damage with Quicken Enabled

Blighted Breath does not benefit from Bonus to caster level from Hive/Thorn Forms (Both Poison and Acid versions of the spell)
Blighted Breath does not have a listed spell school
Blighted Breath DC does not benefit from +Spell focus Mastery items

Enhancement Bugs
Everything Decays only lasts 10s instead of 30s
Vile Eruption (Core 5 from Blight tree) does not apply its’ damage reliably. It sometimes “Skips” applying damage every few 3s ticks
Elemental Forms Legendary Feat is not applied to hive/thorn elementals

Wild Shape Bugs
Hive Master elementals are not immune to Burning Blood (Intended or not?)
Hive Master does not provide bonuses to Acid caster level (it does for poison)

[Xezom]

Everything Decays only lasts 10s instead of 30s

It also does not work on the new Thorn Spells, at least the SLA's. I'll have to double check if they do on the spell book version.

Hive Master elementals are not immune to Burning Blood (Intended or not?)

This one I think is intentional. Hive master's are Vermin NOT elemental. Most vermin do actually have blood. It was stated in the OP that these new forms are not to be seen as elementals but as wildshapes, which is why the elemental spells are getting removed and replaced (supposedly), and boosts for elementals will not work on them but gear for wildshapes will.

[*]Elemental Body was fixed to work with the new forms is probably gonna get replaced by a new spell or enhancement in Blightcaster (We've thinking Thorn and Hive are not going to be considered elementals but they are wildshapes so elemental bonuses will not apply to them but wildshape bonuses will for things like gear and feats will)

The in game feat should reflect this better. The feat Should just read like this in game:

Plant Form: You become a full Thorn Knight. You are considered a plant for purposes of most immunities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stun, mind effects. You can no longer drown in water.

Gain +3 bonus to caster level and max caster level of all Physical and Poison spells
10% absorption against piercing damage and 5% absorb against blunt damage.
10% exceptional bonus to armor class and 100% fortification.
But you are 15% vulnerability to fire damage.

This is a wild shape only for the purposes of gear and feats. Elemental benefits do not apply to you while in this form.



The same with Hive Master. That was it is very clear what does and does not apply and what the forms are and are not.

[ned_ellis]

A few not very detailed points having tried a lvl30 / 20 blight hive caster :
- Targeting of new spells is better but not yet fully functional; especially the two that blast from your body rarely hit
- Some cool new effects
- Spell damage scaling is indeed odd as others have said
- The hp shield from killing mobs is underwhelming (specially as dot's rarely kill before your teammates!)
- The two forms are not sufficiently differentiated; please further develop the differences
- Seasons herald tree has virtually no synergy sadly; it’s a caster druid with only one tree available (again!)
- The murder of ravens ability is underwhelming considering it involves (a very cool!) synergy with falconry

In general, as a dot caster this build has some inherant limits : mostly conjuration, it’s heavy hitter new spells are acid and negative (necromancy). Anything evocation falls by the side…plus there is virtually no DC support. The problem with this is the cc is limited since it grabs plenty aggro (multiple hit/shard spells that hit multiple targets for low dmg and aoe and dot’s that do dmg but over time – considering even your healing is delayed, incoming dmg is incredibly erratic compared to other casters.

Compared to my live build (fire ele) I lose the ability to play as secondary healer to gain…some really cool spells that are really hard to make the most of ?
I’ll try again with some tweaks later and see if I can come up with some ideas but if the ‘displacement’ from hive master is excluded from reaper like the spell, defensively (and the possibility of acting as a healer) an elemental version wins hands down what is otherwise a really cool archetype.

Other things : great tweak to spiprtit blade feat!! As others said, pleaasepleaseplease make the art cool (no barkskin/bee swarm and call it a day please!)

[Ultinoob]

So the blightcaster gets no wild empathy.

Taking extra wild empathy in natures warrior tier 1 does not grant you any wild empathy feat.

This means we can't use the tier 2 "Flight" which is really good and a prerequisite for other enhancements.

Is this working as intended?

Seems off.

[Skyael]

So the blightcaster gets no wild empathy.

Taking extra wild empathy in natures warrior tier 1 does not grant you any wild empathy feat.

This means we can't use the tier 2 "Flight" which is really good and a prerequisite for other enhancements.

Is this working as intended?

Seems off.

Good catch.

The same can be said about enhancements that boost the pet wolf, despite not having one, making them near-useless.

[Ultinoob]

Good catch.

The same can be said about enhancements that boost the pet wolf, despite not having one, making them near-useless.

It can be said but i don't think it is the same. Brother wolf from nw is not a prerequsite for anything and it does give you +3 attack and damage.

Shared spirit from seasons herald gives you +3 universal spell power.

So i don't think either of these are as useless as spending 3 points on flight to get fight which is really good for a melee.

Those 3 points are a waste as it is now. Both the enhancements that gives to the pet also gives you something else. I don't think they are a waste in the same way.

[Scrag]

- Seasons herald tree has virtually no synergy sadly; it’s a caster druid with only one tree available (again!)

I must not be looking in the same place. I see combined 12% crit to acid, earth, physical spells between seasons herald and blightcaster. 1 max level, 1 caster levels for your season (pick phys or acid, its nice to have). Points can be spent in SH for efficient mm to get the tasty +8% crit, since you were (probably) going to get efficient mm in blightcaster anyway, allowing you to get more with less locked in one tree..

Thats my thoughts there.

[Ultinoob]

Maybe change flight to a multiselector that gives what it does now or 1/2/3 dodge cap?

[SilentRunning]

Seeing as how this Druid seems to focus around: Death, Famine, Decay, Plague, Poison, Insects, Moss, Fungus. Bleached Bones. Scavengers.

Shouldn't it be able to heal from negative energy? Seeing as how it seems to revolve around it.

[Arkai]

Since they are revamping some spells, what do you guys think about Horrid Wilting state? I see awful damage even in a full equiped force necro, and afair it didn't get its base damage doubled like Elemental spells in the last pass. What are your thoughts?

Edit to show some data. Those pictures are taken on a level 32 character will all relevant equipment and feats to cold, force and necro. I put special attention to the critical damage we get in every spell. All are AOE spells using the same metamagic:


Necrotic Blast

Arcane Tempest

Horrid Wilting 1

Horrid Wilting 2

I think critical damage is low if I see force spells, and that even if it's necro spell (idk what energy type you are using at the end, I thought It was force or untyped), critical damage perhaps it's not applying correctly.

[Arkai]

Also, the "negative damage" on Wilting screenshots are Draconic mantle, it's not even the spell effect, to get how low the actual damage is.

[neain2008]

Seeing as how this Druid seems to focus around: Death, Famine, Decay, Plague, Poison, Insects, Moss, Fungus. Bleached Bones. Scavengers.

Shouldn't it be able to heal from negative energy? Seeing as how it seems to revolve around it.

No. No no no no no.

While it would be quite thematic to have a full party of undead, all healing each other, in practice the more undead the harder on the healer(s) trying to keep people alive. They rarely heal each other and in the case of needing emergency healing, they heal less and so are far more likely to die if there is something still attacking them.

[Xezom]

No. No no no no no.

While it would be quite thematic to have a full party of undead, all healing each other, in practice the more undead the harder on the healer(s) trying to keep people alive. They rarely heal each other and in the case of needing emergency healing, they heal less and so are far more likely to die if there is something still attacking them.

I kinda have to agree here. I don't think I've seen many Archetype threads where someone ISN'T asking for them to be healed by negative energy. Right now we've got pale masters (and any splash into), Abyss Warlocks (albeit very rare to see), and Dark Apostates (and any splash) that can heal from negative energy. I don't think we need a whole lot more otherwise it loses its uniqueness as a mechanic. If there were another class that I'd say SHOULD have a negative healing option, it would be something like an Oathbreaker Paladin (Dark Paladin). I don't think, or personally even want, every class to have an option to heal from negative energy.

[Torc]

Sorry for littering this thread with posts but found another bug/weird interaction.

I was doing some more testing and figured out what is going on with the immunity stripping. The Immunity strip is working on your natural spells (creeping doom, insidious spores, contagion, Enveloping swarm, all the spells you naturally get as a druid.) It does NOT work on any of the new Thorn spells. So the issue is actually that the stripping immunities is not working on the thorn spells, not just in general.

Secondly, the immunity stripping lasts for 10 seconds not the 30 seconds that is listed in the tooltip and patch notes when it does get applied from one of your "natural" druid spells.

That makes sense. The thorns spells are their own type (and force) but are not considered acid or poison spells in of themselves.

-T