U58 Preview 2: Dark Hunter Ranger Archetype

[Pandjed]

Medium Armor must be a Red Herring to noodle on because it makes no sense for a Ranger.

No sense for a ranger? The only 2 D&D versions where a ranger couldn't wear medium were 3.5e (he could in 3e) and 4e (though he had the best light armor, just before medium). So it makes a lot of sense to not overemphasize 11 years of 46 years (in July) of D&D.

Does it synergize well with DDO-version? Not that much, because the easy access to Dex to hit/dmg in combination to the hybrid nature that also relies on Dex. But still doable.

Does it fit the idea of the Dark Hunter (as an underdark explorer/hunter)? Depends who you ask, but most will probably say no.

Does it fit this tree and the stats? No, not at all. Would need to be a STR focused build to pull it off or have several sources of max-dex up and armor penalty down to somewhat work.

[Coffey]

No sense for a ranger? The only 2 D&D versions where a ranger couldn't wear medium were 3.5e (he could in 3e) and 4e (though he had the best light armor, just before medium). So it makes a lot of sense to not overemphasize 11 years of 46 years (in July) of D&D.

Does it synergize well with DDO-version? Not that much, because the easy access to Dex to hit/dmg in combination to the hybrid nature that also relies on Dex. But still doable.

Does it fit the idea of the Dark Hunter (as an underdark explorer/hunter)? Depends who you ask, but most will probably say no.

Does it fit this tree and the stats? No, not at all. Would need to be a STR focused build to pull it off or have several sources of max-dex up and armor penalty down to somewhat work.

Thanks for the clarity about the armor much appreciated.

I was on Lam last night but there wasnt a lot to preview on the Dark Hunter tree because most of it isnt done yet. With the sudden change to medium armor and the removal of evasion since the first preview i went into red alert lol.

The silly thing is that i dont even care if they ruin this tree because i still have my Tempest Trap Monkey.

[Pandjed]

The silly thing is that i dont even care if they ruin this tree because i still have my Tempest Trap Monkey.

There is little to ruin, because the tree doesn't really do something, it's spreading too much into stuff rangers don't do normally but too thinly to make it work. Horizon Walker is more of a ranger tree (Favored Enemy and focus on specific targets, mark for single target DPS, bow-centric, plus some expansion normal rangers don't get), than this no-direction mess of a tree, and the base class is almost just adding (removing evasion is probably meant to make the trapping an actual trade-off instead of a bonus aside some FE restrictions), which makes the line also blurry and less... defining that way. Limits are important to define.

Personally, I would rework the stealth aspects into DWS (which is already a stealthy sneak tree, and not all abilities really work well for it), rework the crit profiles of the ranger to be in one tree instead DWS + another (AA for bows only, Temp for TWF only, DH for light weapons and bows, and DWS for all weapons, as it's basically the best hybrid tree), and then either rename DH into Beast Master and do more pet-related stuff (like trading combat style for pet and several beast boosts and removing the trapping) or go full mechanicle and chemical by replacing plant spells with some alchemist spells (no reaction state needed, can be alch only), adding several special traplike abilities as spells or SLAs in tree, and forgo the pet entirely (which would be more in line what you would like).

Lack of identity -> lack of vision -> lack of design -> lack of player enjoyability

[Coffey]

Lack of identity -> lack of vision -> lack of design -> lack of player enjoyability

Good summary of DH at this point in development anyways.

[amessi1]

not sure i can plan how to use this tree just yet, but I am interested to run a Dark Hunter tempest/DWS to end game.

Is Smoke Trap an AOE attack (kinda seems like it should be b/c it's be hard to only get smoke on one person, but reality aside), if not it'd be cool if it was. Does it require selecting a target? it be great if it worked like Energy Burst...though if you did throw it, not having to select a target would be workable.

If it was/is an AOE Energy Burst like attack it could make a fun synergy with Dance of Death. by level 5 you'd get a fun mob slaying experience, making ranger past lives fast/fun.

[SilentRunning]

I can't get on and test as I don't have the time to do so, but how well would this work with HW?

[DaviMOC]

Maybe keep evasion and medium armor so players can decide if they go light evasion or medium with health/ac bonus.
I know archetypes are about specialization but some versatility is welcome

[Natashaelle]

Maybe keep evasion and medium armor so players can decide if they go light evasion or medium with health/ac bonus.

Was thinking exactly the same thing this afternoon.

[amessi1]

i come here to beg, could we get a low tier enhancement, while melee weapons are equipped you run 1% faster for every ranger level? or even .5%/level.

please?

[Dandonk]

i come here to beg, could we get a low tier enhancement, while melee weapons are equipped you run 1% faster for every ranger level? or even .5%/level.

Hmm, good point, actually. Melee rangers have a lower base movement speed than most other melees. Barbs get 10%, monks get a gazillion, fighters and pallys get access to bonus from defensive stance, bards and rogues get bonus per level, druid wolves get bonus too. It would be nice if tempest (it's in the name, really) had some way to get a bonus as well. OR generally, any ranger with melee weapons.

[Assassination]

i come here to beg, could we get a low tier enhancement, while melee weapons are equipped you run 1% faster for every ranger level? or even .5%/level.

please?

1% per ranger level would be a "lordy" send. Please make it so, tier 1 enhancement like rogue thief acrobat... Plz. Then dex trance in tier 2... Rest of tree can burn.

[Aelonwy]

Was thinking exactly the same thing this afternoon.

Would it be better as an enhancement in the tree where you have a multi-selector either/or or at the level that ranger typically receives evasion instead make a Dark Hunter choose between class feats evasion or medium armor prof?

I suppose as an enhancement it would be easier to respec if needed, but evasion is a feat a ranger typically has if they have enough ranger levels so I would be fine with making it a feat choice to which you need to commit.

[Bjond]

Dark Hunter is a new Ranger Archetype with themes of Assassination, sneaking, hunting, trapmaking, scavenging, and throwing weapons.

I really like the concept of a full-BAB trapper, but I don't see anything particularly interesting for a thrower in either the class or the tree. I would definitely pick dark ranger over ranger for my thrower's 6 levels of ranger (because it doesn't use AA), but there's nothing that would entice me to rebuild into it. It would just be a pick for when something else brings on a rebuild for that character.

The majority of the thrower's levels will be rogue (for more sneak attack) with AP into assassin for cheaper imbue dice and an imbue that scales off ranged power.

Core 3: Smoke Trap: Throw a smoke grenade at a target, if they fail a fortitude save (DC20 + Dex Mod + Assassinate + Trap DCs) they lose their immunity to sneak attack and 25% of their fortification for 25 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)

Looks like a thematic copy of assassin's trick. I'd suggest changing the text. GRENADES are inherently AREA effect. It's well beyond weird to have a single target grenade. Suggest changing the wording to something like "blowing smoke in the eyes of a single target" to get rid of any hint of AE. I'd also suggest reduce the CD to something like 3s. One of the reasons I don't buy and use Assassin's Trick is that the CD is too long to apply each time; ie. it ends up a raid-boss only skill.

EDIT: argh, didn't describe that correctly. Upon rethinking what made me ditch trick from my thrower was that it's purely a single-target debuff and not an on-hit modifier that would work with IPS. I was doing a lot of level-up at the time and thus if it didn't help with trash clearing, it didn't help (bosses are inconsequential when xp'ing). I may end up putting it back as the char is now parked at cap again for raids. Hopefully this helps you see where (at least one) player sees this as potentially useful or not useful.

Core 6: Underdark Defenses: While wearing Medium Armor, gain Exceptional bonus to Armor Class +10% and you take 50% trap damage.[/COLOR]

This is a bit fluffy. AC only works in heroic and unless it's a 1st life character, it will have so much AC that this becomes a "don't care". Medium Armor theming rather breaks pretty much all of a ranger's evasion + TWF style, too. Medium armor is essentially pointless UNLESS you can wear a Large Shield or your MRR will be so low as to result in excessive deaths to magic damage. There aren't any features in the tree to promote or permit full DPS with a Large Shield -- it's still TWF or Ranged.

If you'd like to make it happy in medium, I'd suggest this core give the same 2xMRR bonus in medium that it would get with a shield even when not using a shield.

Core 12: Escape Through the Dark: Whenever you become Invisible, your Sneak Attack Dice are briefly doubled. This lingers for 5 seconds after you become Invisible and may only trigger once every 60 seconds.
Core 18: Death Stalker: +25% Sneak Speed. While you are sneaking, you gain a 5% enhancement damage bonus to your melee, ranged and unarmed attacks. This lingers for 10 seconds after you leave Stealth. (note: this does not stack with the Relentless Fury item affix)

Sneak theming is great. I loved playing the "fast creeper" style on my monk thrower back when it was viable. The problem with that build now, though, is speed. If you can't run as fast as the rest of the group, you have to drop sneak to keep up. If you're always dropping sneak to keep up, it quickly becomes a pointless ability along with any other ability that is triggered via being in sneak mode.

Personally, I've always thought bard aria should include something to the effect of "everyone runs at the speed of the quickest char", which would kinda sideways-fix this issue for sneakers. Another way would be to have a "theft of speed" or "speed mimic" ability that permits you to copy the speed of another player when sneaking. Doesn't help when solo, but would fix the way grouping utterly kills any sneaking or sneak-triggered abilities.

Death Attack: Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Attempt to Assassinate a foe before you. If it is an enemy type that a Dark Hunter could have as a Favored Enemy (Vermin, Elves, Aberrations, Animals, Humanoids, and Monstrous Humanoids)

Thematically nice, but the restrictions make it pointless -- unless I've misread it; ie. if it's a regular assassinate in all ways PLUS it gets some theme benefits, then it works. It reads as if it does nothing to things outside the theme.

[Firebreed]

1) The Critical Threat/Multiplier issues that plague DWS/Tempest/Dark Ranger have to be addressed for this Archetype to work. They've been mentioned countless times already, don't think there's any need to elaborate.

2) Smoke Trap & Snap Trap should also have "highest of DEX/INT/WIS" in their DC.

[droid327]

Hmm, good point, actually. Melee rangers have a lower base movement speed than most other melees. Barbs get 10%, monks get a gazillion, fighters and pallys get access to bonus from defensive stance, bards and rogues get bonus per level, druid wolves get bonus too. It would be nice if tempest (it's in the name, really) had some way to get a bonus as well. OR generally, any ranger with melee weapons.

Rangers can fit Dodge+Mob+Spring Attack in much easier than other melees (except Fighter) since they get their combat style autogranted. That's not a perfect solution because the CD is so long, but its *something* for mobility...

I can't get on and test as I don't have the time to do so, but how well would this work with HW?

It seems like its best suited for builds that already spend most of their AP elsewhere...so yeah, if you're a HW+DWS, then DH is gonna give you 7 extra Sneak die vs a standard Ranger

But you lose access to an imbue unless you're Elf, and no Evasion, so weigh that accordingly

[amessi1]

Rangers can fit Dodge+Mob+Spring Attack in much easier than other melees (except Fighter) since they get their combat style autogranted. That's not a perfect solution because the CD is so long, but its *something* for mobility...

100% bang on, and i've enjoyed your posts btw. spring attack is great and works until most other builds get wings/abundant step/dire charge/fast furious...at which point the speed in battle (v.risky) and the time running until the next spring attack are where this build starts to show some rough edges. i had to make some questionable choices in epic destiny to keep up with the cool kids in some of the dungeons.

oh, maybe an enhancement that adds a few seconds boost to speed after spring attack?

[Dandonk]

Rangers can fit Dodge+Mob+Spring Attack in much easier than other melees (except Fighter) since they get their combat style autogranted. That's not a perfect solution because the CD is so long, but its *something* for mobility...

This is true. Though it's not really the same as having a higher base speed. But yes, it's something, I guess.

[Firebreed]

Also, I think it's only fair that regular Rangers get Cure Critical Wounds now, as Dark Hunter will be getting Curative Admixture: Cure Critical Wounds. Also consider that Rangers have barely any spells to choose from for their Level 4 spells.

[LurkingVeteran]

I can't see this enh-tree being real popular for those that take it primarily to disable traps.

I do not really get this either. The 50% trap damage in C6 is nice, but it's no substitute for evasion when it comes to actually doing the trapping.

Overall: I am not entirely sure what this tree gives that you couldn't easily get before by splashing art/rog. The capstone is also very weak (or at least it is very unclear what Cull the Weak even is), so why not splash?

The only use that I can see for this archetype is to get some extra sneak attack dice for free from levels while you put most of your APs in some other tree. It pairs decently with a DWS ranged build, e.g. snipershot and DWS capstone. The C6 50% from traps could maybe be useful for certain medium armor builds on HC.

Bottom line is that the T5 and C20 needs some unique and useful ability if this is going to be more than a novelty / splash tree. The current assassinate attack is a bit too niche imo. Currently it is weaker than T5 falconry, and nobody ever uses that.

Here is an interesting idea, why not make them able to throw or fire rogue traps at range, or place one nearly instantly while in combat (on CD). Traps can be good they are just a bit cludgy to use currently. Would also strengthen the trap focus.

[xaxaeb]

Do developers even play their own game? Devs, please, step into R10 once in a blue moon to get your reality check.
You took a pretty fun concept proposed in preview 1 with ranged assassinate, and completely destroyed it in preview 2.
Who cares if a soulstone of the wolf will have imbue dice? Pets are only good for pulling levers. They can't take a hit, they can't do any sort of damage. If you want to give us pet classes/archetypes - rework the pet system, make them actually useful. Make reaper bonuses apply to pets, give them a proper enhancement tree instead of keeping the pre-U19 variant. Give them proper weapon options with CC/debuffs on them. Give us proper options to increase their survivability and damage. Without those things you're just wasting effort.
And seriously, when you come up with some weird idea - run it through an R10 quest. You've introduced reaper difficulty years ago, yet all your balance changes are still targeted at Elite.....