Why does Sacred Fist kinda suck?

[Igrovin]

Now I'm talking if you went Pure Sacred Fist. I'm sure if you took two level of flux capacitator and cross referenced with with the ossification of the sideways wombolatron you might get something out of it. And on Paper it looks really good. High AC, saves, etc. But in practice, they get ripped to shreds like a wet paper sack



1) Lack out of combat Ki regeneration - Monks at 2nd level gain meditation feat. The ninja spy regenerates while in stealth. Sacred fist only regenerate when punching monster face. And it looks like the only way to imrpove their monster face punching ki generation is by popping Turn undeads in combat, which if fighting undead makes it so you get no ki generation if you're really good at turning undead. The lack of non-face punchy out of combat ki regeneration means that some of the ki power abilities like Ki Bolt are pretty much useless. Even fi you're in combat, your Ki pool will be drained faster than a moshpit at a Celine DeLeon concert giving you a single attack per combat and nothing outside of combat.

2) Lack of ranged weapon options. Not really that important of a thing except for all the monsters that cannot be face punched. The traps and doors that have to be hit with a ranged weapon. Etc. If you equip any ranged weapon, you become uncentered (So now all your abilities go poof) Monks can at least equip Shuriken proficiently, Sacred Fist should be able to so they can keep up with the jones and participate in some ranged combat when they cannot face punchy things rather than having to use the shuriken non-profiently or go uncentered with throwing knife/dart.

3) Its skills and starting equipment for veteran still pretend that its a standard heavy armor shield using paladin. The starting equipment can be adjusted, but Tumble not being a class skill kinda hurts. And I'm not sure, but I got this feeling that the chests are rigged towards standard paladin, cause the amount of fullplate armors and heavy shields I get are staggering.


4) Enhancements honestly kinda suck. Sure there is some jewels, but like the capstone level 20 one? a small boost to a few numbers, and then 25% fire absorption? The sacred fist get a lot of saves.. Heck this capstone gives you 6 to saving throws. You get a bunch of them in earlier abilities. And you have evasion. You've got typically a 5% chance to take fire damage. Maybe i just don't know absorption mechanics that well, but it doesn't seem to be really that ground breaking when you compare it to something like sacred defender, who gains a bunch of defense boosts and the ability to keep fighting even if they get killed. They also get the abiltiy to stop (Though far late game) magic missiles. Which turns out to be the big killer IMO. The Sacred Fist just gets nickeled and dimed to death whenever there is a spell caster cause they spam the heck out of those MM.

There is a few of these "If you fail" enhancements in SF. The improved evasion one that if you roll a nat 1, you take less damage (80% less), the one if you are helpless you take 15% less, and the capstone.

[thegreatcthulhu]

Now I'm talking if you went Pure Sacred Fist. I'm sure if you took two level of flux capacitator and cross referenced with with the ossification of the sideways wombolatron you might get something out of it. And on Paper it looks really good. High AC, saves, etc. But in practice, they get ripped to shreds like a wet paper sack



1) Lack out of combat Ki regeneration - Monks at 2nd level gain meditation feat. The ninja spy regenerates while in stealth. Sacred fist only regenerate when punching monster face. And it looks like the only way to imrpove their monster face punching ki generation is by popping Turn undeads in combat, which if fighting undead makes it so you get no ki generation if you're really good at turning undead. The lack of non-face punchy out of combat ki regeneration means that some of the ki power abilities like Ki Bolt are pretty much useless. Even fi you're in combat, your Ki pool will be drained faster than a moshpit at a Celine DeLeon concert giving you a single attack per combat and nothing outside of combat.

2) Lack of ranged weapon options. Not really that important of a thing except for all the monsters that cannot be face punched. The traps and doors that have to be hit with a ranged weapon. Etc. If you equip any ranged weapon, you become uncentered (So now all your abilities go poof) Monks can at least equip Shuriken proficiently, Sacred Fist should be able to so they can keep up with the jones and participate in some ranged combat when they cannot face punchy things rather than having to use the shuriken non-profiently or go uncentered with throwing knife/dart.

3) Its skills and starting equipment for veteran still pretend that its a standard heavy armor shield using paladin. The starting equipment can be adjusted, but Tumble not being a class skill kinda hurts. And I'm not sure, but I got this feeling that the chests are rigged towards standard paladin, cause the amount of fullplate armors and heavy shields I get are staggering.


4) Enhancements honestly kinda suck. Sure there is some jewels, but like the capstone level 20 one? a small boost to a few numbers, and then 25% fire absorption? The sacred fist get a lot of saves.. Heck this capstone gives you 6 to saving throws. You get a bunch of them in earlier abilities. And you have evasion. You've got typically a 5% chance to take fire damage. Maybe i just don't know absorption mechanics that well, but it doesn't seem to be really that ground breaking when you compare it to something like sacred defender, who gains a bunch of defense boosts and the ability to keep fighting even if they get killed. They also get the abiltiy to stop (Though far late game) magic missiles. Which turns out to be the big killer IMO. The Sacred Fist just gets nickeled and dimed to death whenever there is a spell caster cause they spam the heck out of those MM.

There is a few of these "If you fail" enhancements in SF. The improved evasion one that if you roll a nat 1, you take less damage (80% less), the one if you are helpless you take 15% less, and the capstone.

I personally haven't tried it myself due to the reasons you listed and because at the end of the day, it smells like a Monk. I've never been a fan of the concept (unless you count Fist of The North Star characters).

That being said, when you tried it, what did your past life load out look like?

[LavidDynch]

I'm sure if you took two level of flux capacitator and cross referenced with with the ossification of the sideways wombolatron you might get something out of it.

If you are who I think you are, we need to make it to the clock tower by midnight! I got it all rigged, 88 MPH and bad weather is the key Marty!

regards,

Doc

[Xgya]

1) is easily solved by a single ki item. It's just a shame there aren't any at lower levels.
A fistadin's ki spending is astoundingly low once you get your hands on +1 ki.
If a fistadin had a Monk's ki regen options, the likes of Ki Bolt would STILL be useless unless you went out to punch faces.

2) is a shame. The only way to fight from range is save on ki and use Wave.
Still, if you have a Monk trying to fight its way through using shuriken when you don't have anything else to help out, you're already having a bad time. Sure, a normal Paladin could use a throwing knife, but we all know they're probably better off avoiding the mobs shooting at them or looking for ways to get to them.

3) Agreed. Starting equipment should be based on Archetype by now.

4) Against Magic Missiles, I had a similar equipment. Shield clickies were essentially my only saving grace, the low MRR and little chances to get it any higher were awfully painful to bear. They're absolutely great tanking hits while in actual melee, but as soon as one of those finger-waddling people in bathrobes comes in with a spell Evasion doesn't work against...

[Igrovin]

1) is easily solved by a single ki item. It's just a shame there aren't any at lower levels.
A fistadin's ki spending is astoundingly low once you get your hands on +1 ki.
If a fistadin had a Monk's ki regen options, the likes of Ki Bolt would STILL be useless unless you went out to punch faces.

2) is a shame. The only way to fight from range is save on ki and use Wave.
Still, if you have a Monk trying to fight its way through using shuriken when you don't have anything else to help out, you're already having a bad time. Sure, a normal Paladin could use a throwing knife, but we all know they're probably better off avoiding the mobs shooting at them or looking for ways to get to them.

3) Agreed. Starting equipment should be based on Archetype by now.

4) Against Magic Missiles, I had a similar equipment. Shield clickies were essentially my only saving grace, the low MRR and little chances to get it any higher were awfully painful to bear. They're absolutely great tanking hits while in actual melee, but as soon as one of those finger-waddling people in bathrobes comes in with a spell Evasion doesn't work against...

Yeah, it would at least be able to give you a single pew pew, before engaging into combat. But it needs a lot more work.. I think part of the problem is that everything is based on your Cha except for spells which the ki powers might be considered.

2- Some areas you have monsters that are not easily punchable but have to be defeated for the next door to open. Mostly flying types.

And I forgot about Balance skill! I recall my fistadin going into a place and then just getting stun locked by minotaurs constantly doing knock down till I died.

[Igrovin]

Okay yeah, playing around more with my Sacred fist

1) Rays, Will/Fort save damaging spells - These tear up the Sacred fist faster than a child with a Christmas present. You can't use AC, you can't dodge them, I'm not even sure blur even works with ray. Even though you'll make the save almost every time, its all just a tick tick tick. With my Bard Swashbuckler, I have 20 temp hp that keeps regenerating and elemental damage resistance.


2) The Lack of skill points and Class skills. With a armorless monk like character, you likely should get at least 2 more skill points, and then Jump, Tumble and Balance added to class skills.


Edit:

Equipment - Ah yes, there is a end chest option to give you equipment for your class. Have to turn that off in the settings cause you'll just get tower shields and full plate.

So I decided to run with Feydark illusionist cause the swords are Ki weapons.

[thegreatcthulhu]

Okay yeah, playing around more with my Sacred fist

1) Rays, Will/Fort save damaging spells - These tear up the Sacred fist faster than a child with a Christmas present. You can't use AC, you can't dodge them, I'm not even sure blur even works with ray. Even though you'll make the save almost every time, its all just a tick tick tick. With my Bard Swashbuckler, I have 20 temp hp that keeps regenerating and elemental damage resistance.


2) The Lack of skill points and Class skills. With a armorless monk like character, you likely should get at least 2 more skill points, and then Jump, Tumble and Balance added to class skills.


Edit:

Equipment - Ah yes, there is a end chest option to give you equipment for your class. Have to turn that off in the settings cause you'll just get tower shields and full plate.

So I decided to run with Feydark illusionist cause the swords are Ki weapons.

That sounds... unpleasant. Maybe I'm reading too much into the negative here.

So far have you found it anywhere as close to enjoyable as normal Paladins (assuming you enjoy them of course)?

[Igrovin]

That sounds... unpleasant. Maybe I'm reading too much into the negative here.

So far have you found it anywhere as close to enjoyable as normal Paladins (assuming you enjoy them of course)?

I don't really play paladins. But I've played monks. I like not having to do combos/finishers like monk has because honestly the combo system is kinda dumb since its use the same ability three times in a row to unlock a finisher. Only so much real estate i can dedicate on my keyboard for a melee class combat abilities at a time.


A Lot of the problem is its a Heavy armor class pretending to be a no-armor class, and its attacks just don't do enough damage to keep up with the need, nor does it have quite the protections it needs.

I think blending it with Feydark Illusionist may be needed

[Krelar]

A Lot of the problem is its a Heavy armor class pretending to be a no-armor class, and its attacks just don't do enough damage to keep up with the need, nor does it have quite the protections it needs.

That's pretty much my experience. The class does less damage and is less survivable than the THF paladin build I prefer to play.

[ZzpxpzZ]

I suppose it is possible that Sacred Fist has a higher requirement on knowledge than other builds, but not significantly so. In my experience, Sacred Fist has easily become one of my top favorite melee builds. This doesnt necessarily put them at the top of my favorite builds list considering melee is just not as effective in this game as casters are, but if I had to pick a melee a pure sacred fist is easily in my top 3 as it has some of the best AoE a melee gets. Sacred Fist is the closest thing to a caster for being a non caster.

Ki regen - this is almost entirely a moot point, get a ki item and you will never have ki issues, I perpetually ran around with max yellow bar despite spamming my ki spells and cleaves all I needed.

Throwing weapon - well you are right, you have to drop center to use one to hit levers, but there is almost no circumstance in this game where if you are playing a build that doesnt somehow specialize in range that you should be busting out a throwing weapon to damage monsters. Just dont.

Sacred Fist is tanky as hell. If you build it right it has a butt ton of HP, it does suffer from lack of MRR similar to monks, but thats not very significant until epic anyway and there are filigree sets etc that allow you to boost that MRR cap. As far as shield goes, welcome to the plight of every non shield/nightshield caster ever. Just bring shield wands and some UMD. If you have the spare AP and a feat for magical training you can grab immunity to magic missile of Feydark Illusionist, not sure its worth it but up to you, its not the worst possible tree for a Sacred Fist since at least you can snag some cha out of it. Otherwise, a short dip into Shadowdancer at epic will get you magic missile immunity.

I would say that its almost always worth while turning off the toggle that says quest end rewards based on class in almost any circumstance, and beyond that the more experienced you are with the game the more you will realize that random gen gear is mostly irrelevant.

[Igrovin]

I suppose it is possible that Sacred Fist has a higher requirement on knowledge than other builds, but not significantly so. In my experience, Sacred Fist has easily become one of my top favorite melee builds. This doesnt necessarily put them at the top of my favorite builds list considering melee is just not as effective in this game as casters are, but if I had to pick a melee a pure sacred fist is easily in my top 3 as it has some of the best AoE a melee gets. Sacred Fist is the closest thing to a caster for being a non caster.

Ki regen - this is almost entirely a moot point, get a ki item and you will never have ki issues, I perpetually ran around with max yellow bar despite spamming my ki spells and cleaves all I needed.

Throwing weapon - well you are right, you have to drop center to use one to hit levers, but there is almost no circumstance in this game where if you are playing a build that doesnt somehow specialize in range that you should be busting out a throwing weapon to damage monsters. Just dont.

For me, I must be utterly unlucky because I've never found a Ki item.

As far as busting out a throwing weapon, the problem is that you're trying to not uncenter, cause all your things turn off. And you're in a room you need to kill all the enemies or you remain locked in the room and there is an elf on the shelf that is just spamming his little bow at you. Now for my Swashbuckler and other builds, I pull out a bow and Arrow if jumping doesn't get there. Or a crossbow and bolt. My Monk uses a shuriken though to keep centered.

Ran into a situation like this running the mummy king quest in the sands area where you enter into a room, the doors lock, and you got four archers on high ledges shooting down at you. The swash though was good enough to jump up there with ease, having a ton of skill points

Sacred Fist is tanky as hell. If you build it right it has a butt ton of HP, it does suffer from lack of MRR similar to monks, but thats not very significant until epic anyway and there are filigree sets etc that allow you to boost that MRR cap. As far as shield goes, welcome to the plight of every non shield/nightshield caster ever. Just bring shield wands and some UMD. If you have the spare AP and a feat for magical training you can grab immunity to magic missile of Feydark Illusionist, not sure its worth it but up to you, its not the worst possible tree for a Sacred Fist since at least you can snag some cha out of it. Otherwise, a short dip into Shadowdancer at epic will get you magic missile immunity.

I would say that its almost always worth while turning off the toggle that says quest end rewards based on class in almost any circumstance, and beyond that the more experienced you are with the game the more you will realize that random gen gear is mostly irrelevant.

Getting the point of filligree, you've got 20 levels to get up there. Same with shadow dancer. Getting UMD is a bit difficult with only 2 skill points a level. With enough gear you can make a commoner "good".

[Onyxia2019]

Let me start by saying I have yet to play a Sacred Fist and there are two reasons.

1) In theory crafting I was never able to get something good other than very specific situation against mainly non-caster enemies.

2) I just cannot get behind the concept of a paladin wearing cloth and not using a weapon. To me that is like a wizard wearing plate and using a greatsword instead of spells.

I am the type of player that gravitates to the cleric/paladin class in any game. The righteous defender of the innocent and the bane of evil.
Running around in your pajamas slapping/kicking things does not scream holy warrior to me.

I have always thought the Sacred Fist should have been a Monk architype with Lay on Hands and some divine training and spells.

The paladin architype should have been the Dark Paladin.

This is just my opinion so if you enjoy the Sacred Fist as it is then by all means have fun.

[thegreatcthulhu]

Let me start by saying I have yet to play a Sacred Fist and there are two reasons.

1) In theory crafting I was never able to get something good other than very specific situation against mainly non-caster enemies.

2) I just cannot get behind the concept of a paladin wearing cloth and not using a weapon. To me that is like a wizard wearing plate and using a greatsword instead of spells.

I am the type of player that gravitates to the cleric/paladin class in any game. The righteous defender of the innocent and the bane of evil.
Running around in your pajamas slapping/kicking things does not scream holy warrior to me.

I have always thought the Sacred Fist should have been a Monk architype with Lay on Hands and some divine training and spells.

The paladin architype should have been the Dark Paladin.

This is just my opinion so if you enjoy the Sacred Fist as it is then by all means have fun.

I think you summed up my thoughts on this as well. And I also think you pointed out the biggest problem - they jumped the gun on sacred fist and mixed it in with the WRONG primary class. It's very hard also imo to justify giving up KNIGHT OF THE CHALICE for some weird esoteric Paladin. And when I say esoteric, I mean one that didn't exactly stay on the path. And they didn't come out of the weird path ahead or even.

Maybe there's a lesson here about chivalry that SSG is trying to teach?

I jest...