UPDATE 58 PREVIEW 1 - Dark Hunter Ranger

[shmagmhar]

so you throw aoe potions instead of geting heal spells ? am i understanding that correctly?

[Onyxia2019]

Have you actually tried to use them?

Because I can assure you, they can be excellent if you have the DC boosters out of Mechanic or now this tree. I put some web traps to incredible use last Hardcore. You can catch a whole room worth of enemies in one.

I completely agree.

Traps are very helpful if used properly. If you play strategically and use the right trap for the situation they can make a big impact.

[drewollice]

love the idea of the class! i personally love to play mutliclass ranger/rogues so this archetype would be a perfect addition for me! that said here is my feedback i posted in discord but im not sure if that is tracked since its unofficial/fanmade so ill copy/paste it here too.

[9:26 AM]Memento Mori: pet finding traps kinda sucks since the pet follows you. so you will facecheck traps and then the pet will find them...
[9:29 AM]Memento Mori: snare trap says "root" which made me think it would merely hold the enemy in place while they can still cast/attack/etc like league of legends, but it actually stuns them and opens them to sneak attacks. which is much better than expected!
[9:31 AM]Memento Mori: the wolf default has box breaker active and idk how to retrain that out of him. you can train black wolf via the druid trainer since there is no option in ranger trainer dialogue but that only offers options to modify hate
[9:31 AM]Memento Mori: artificer trainer gives dialogue options to train pet but does nothing
[9:37 AM]Memento Mori: dark/black wolf enhancements look generally incomplete.
i have thick fur 2 and 3 but not 1.
yip 2, 3, 4, but not 1
growl 2, 3, 4 but not 1
strength of the pack but idk how to proc it and wolf never activates it himself
same issue with howl

missing 1 means no activated ability so no intim, bluff.
how and strength o pack just lack an active ability
[9:38 AM]Memento Mori: is it a black wolf or a dark wolf? both wordings are used
[9:40 AM]Memento Mori: the wolf animation attacks roughly 3 times for every hit that is applied to an enemy
[9:51 AM]Memento Mori: the tree has a bit of an identity crisis of melee vs ranged.

crit thing thats double effective for melee only, melee only imbue toggle, core2 melee only dodge bonus, 45hp, displacement

which all make this feel like a melee tree.

but then the super cool assassinate ability is ranged only?

and bunch of wasted enhancements on the lackluster wolf (i want pets to be good but hes pretty underwhelming and incomplete/buggy).

so t5 has true sight which is just repalceable by several items in game, 10% doublestrike/shot (gated behind the full line of pet stuff...), 10 prr, and ranged only assassinate or melee optimal crits.

captstone gives bonuses vs blinded but nowhere in tree is blind proced

not to mention the throwaway trap dc, assassate dc, umd skill(cross class skill so super awkward), awareness.

lot of cool in the tree but also a lot of confusion/waste/bloatware.
[9:51 AM]Memento Mori: t4 only has 15 ap prereque instead of 20
[9:53 AM]Memento Mori: doesnt look like bleed the weak works
[9:54 AM]Memento Mori: imbue but no imbue dice bonuses anywhere is also little awkward
[9:57 AM]Memento Mori: t5 of assassin, deepwood stalker, falconry, and tempest are all i think comparable styles to this archetype/class/tree but this ones t5 pale in comparison. not sure why you would pick this one over any of those
[10:00 AM]Memento Mori: can we upgrade smoke bomb to not break sneak? breaking sneak means see invis will now see you which is a bit awkward for trying to smoke bomb to engage with double sneak dice
[10:04 AM]Memento Mori: is there a plan to buff trapmaking? otherwise those enhancements in this tree are sadly the same issue as black/dark wolf pet of cool ideas but underwhelming.
[10:06 AM]Memento Mori: can we upgrade smoke bomb to also do a 360 diplo/bluff effect on nearby enemies with either no save or save dc according to assassinate/traps like snare trap does? or maybe a 3 sec stun or something on enemies while allowing you to move thru enemies for a time?
[10:08 AM]Lominal: the assainate/trap dcs arent terrible, used in t5 and the snapping trap stuff, but on a similar note, itll be near impossible to get the DC over 110 since it wont take trances, and thats on a perfectly geared layout that lost dps just to make 1-2 abilities work
[10:08 AM]Lominal: and since its a fort save, itll only land like 1/2 the time in r10s
[10:09 AM]Memento Mori: i see the main issue w trapmaking is nobody does it bc its so tedious/slow/awkward when everyone holy smites/fireballs/cleaves rooms while youre crouched down for 5 sec laying 1 mine that you hope the enemy runs over
[10:11 AM]Lominal: yeah i more meant that 3 trap dc is useful even without a trapping rework, but its only 1-2 things that use it
[10:11 AM]Lominal: would it be possible to get assasinate/trap dc's to take trances into account?
[10:12 AM]Memento Mori: this dark/black wolf with maxed wolf enhancements + harper tree augment does roughly 30-60 dmg per attack at lvl 20
[10:12 AM]Memento Mori: and it only does an attack every 3 animations


some more from yesterday:

8:59 AM]Memento Mori: opportune moment the core4 that doubles sneak dice when invis.... is not doubling. it is increasing incrementally then peaking.

i have 13d6 unbuffed.
use smoke bomb
3 sec pass and i have 21d6
3 sec pass and i have 29d6
3 sec pass and i have 37d6
3 sec pass and i have 45d6
3 sec pass and i have 61d6
[9:02 AM]Memento Mori: and then that 61d6 lingers for like 10 sec
[9:03 AM]Memento Mori: so i guess its really 25 sec duration increasing over time which is a cool concept but i dont think this is intentional. thats quite the buff from 13->61
[9:12 AM]Memento Mori: could we get bluff and umd as class skills?
bluff also would help improved feint feat.
umd seems to be on theme for trap-making/bomb-throwing/umd-in-enhancemnt-tree-having class.

9:24 AM]Memento Mori: ranger gets cure light at lvl 8, then moderate at 11, then serious at 14.
dark hunter gets cure light at 4, moderate at 8, serious 11, then critical 14.

is this intentional? can we give vanilla ranger the same progression of cure spells? ��

[Azoyhn]

New Archtype for Ranger

New Tree: Dark Hunter
Replaces Arcane Archer

Themes: Assassination, sneaking, hunting, trapmaking, scavenging, throwing weapons


Changes from Base Class

Feats and Features Added:

• Trapfinding (1)
• Trap Making (3)
• Trap Sense +1 (3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) (same as rogue and barbarian)
• Sneak Attack 1d6 (1, 5, 10, 15, 20) (every 5 levels instead of every 2, means they get half of the sneak attack dice as Rogue does, 5d6 instead of 10d6)

Ranger Features Removed:

• All Favored Enemy feats that are not: Vermin, Elf, Aberration, Animal, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid

Spellbook:



Added:

• Curative Admixtures

Removed:

• Cure spells (they get admixtures)

Skills:

• Dark Hunters gain Open Lock and Disable Device as Class Skills

Past Life

• Dark Hunter: +1 Sneak Attack and +1 Sneak Attack Damage per stack

Core 1:

Underdark Stalker: You gain +5 HP and +1 reflex saving throw per core ability you take in this tree.

Core 3:

On The Hunt: When you strike someone with weapons you gain +1% dodge for 6 seconds, stacking 3 times.

Core 6:

Smoke Trap: Throw a smoke grenade at a target, if they fail a fortitude save (DC20 + Dex Mod + Assassinate + Trap DCs) they lose their immunity to sneak attack and 25% of their fortification for 25 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)

Core 12:

Escape Through the Dark: Whenever you become Invisible, your Sneak Attack Dice are briefly doubled. This lingers for 5 seconds after you become Invisible and may only trigger once every 60 seconds.

Core 18:

Death Stalker: +25% Sneak Speed. While you are sneaking, you gain a 5% enhancement damage bonus to your melee, ranged and unarmed attacks. This lingers for 10 seconds after you leave Stealth. (note: this does not stack with the Relentless Fury item affix)

Core 20:

Hunter in the Dark: +2 Dex, Int, and Wis. +10% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. +10 Melee and Ranged Power. Your Cull the Weak bonus now applies against enemies that are Blind.

Tier 1:

Dark Wolf: You gain a Black Wolf as an Animal Companion. Each rank also gives you +5 HP.

Wolf Hide: (req Dark Wolf) +2/4/6 PRR

Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks

Bleed the Weak: Imbue Toggle: 1d8 Bleed damage, scaling with Melee Power. Increases to 1d10 vs enemies below 50%, and increases again to 1d12 against enemies below 25%.

Awareness: +1/2/3 Listen, Search, Spot, and to-hit.

Tier 2:

Furor of the Hunter: Your Black Wolf gains +3/6/10 to hit and damage, +2/4/6 Primal Bonus to AC, and its attacks bypass 10%/20%/50% of enemy Fortification.

Assassin's Training: +1/2/3 Assassinate DCs.

Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks

Improved Traps: +1/2/3 to the save DC's of Alchemical Trap Attacks and Magical Traps. Elemental Traps that you place now have a DC equal to 65/80/100% of your Disable Device Skill instead of 50%.

Action Boost: Skills or Sprint

Tier 3:

Primal Energy: Your Black Wolf gains a +2/+4/+6 Primal Bonus to all Ability Scores.

Snap Trap: Toss a snapping trap at the targeted enemy. If they don't make a Fortitude Save (DC 20 + Dex Mod + Assassinate + Bonus Trap DCs) they are rooted in place by the trap's jaws.

Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks

Use Magical Device: +1/2/3 Use Magic Device

+1 Dex / Int / Wis

Tier 4:

Lupine Instincts: Your Black Wolf inherits your Search and Spot scores, and will automatically find traps and secret doors for you assuming you meet the statistical threshold.

Slayer in the Dark: Killing an enemy grants you a +5 Morale bonus to Melee and Ranged Power, stacking 2/3/4 times. Duration: 20s
Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks

Smoke Bomb: Smoke Bomb SLA

+1 Dex / Int / Wis

Tier 5:

Ferocity: You gain +10% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. Your Black Wolf gains 25% Attack Speed and 100% Fortification Bypass.

Stone's Hue: Your Camouflage spell also grants the target +1 PRR per 2 caster levels, max caster level 20.

Death Attack: Ranged Assassinate. Balance TBD. From the pen and paper source, this is essentially a copy of the ability Assassinate from Assassin, so we're looking into a way to differentiate it from the Rogue ability. Open to suggestions on this front!

Blade Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with your weapons. If you have Improved Critical: Piercing, this bonus to Threat Range is doubled.

Dark Sight: You have True Seeing. You may also toggle this on to gain Underdark Sight while within the Underdark.

Known Issues:

• Several icons have not been finalized.
• All visual effects have not been finalized.
• The Tier 5 Death Attack is not complete, see tree for details.
• Open Lock and Disable Device skill trains have some issues

So, for this part:

Death Attack: Ranged Assassinate. Balance TBD. From the pen and paper source, this is essentially a copy of the ability Assassinate from Assassin, so we're looking into a way to differentiate it from the Rogue ability. Open to suggestions on this front!

I would provide 10% doubleshot and +5 damage temporarily for ~20-30 seconds, if you successfully assassinate the target.

[FixBows]

I am sure they put a lot of work into this, but the tree itself doesn't really achieve anything imho. I can see this being used for any non-AA archer ranger splash build to pick up a few SA dice . I can see everyone (melee or ranged) doing 3 past lives. I cannot see anyone wanting to use the tree beyond a flavor build or some niche melee builds. I do not think it will replace rogues because you get more SA damage, but I can see a lot more rogue / ranger splits. My fear is that SSG will consider this their archer archetype and not be willing to do anything that would be more archer based.

My opinion is to make this an archer tree or make it a melee assassin tree. Trying to do both is just failing at both. i would lean towards melee at this point since it is predominately that way currently.

[yfernbottom]

so you throw aoe potions instead of geting heal spells ? am i understanding that correctly?

I think that's correct. This is a concern with the tree to me.

In theory you can hit more than one person with them, an so heal several people or yourself and a hireling. However they are fidgety to use, and not very reliable when you need quick self healing in my very limited experience with them. It's way too easy to miss what you are aiming at.

[Haphazarduk]

I think that's correct. This is a concern with the tree to me.

In theory you can hit more than one person with them, an so heal several people or yourself and a hireling. However they are fidgety to use, and not very reliable when you need quick self healing in my very limited experience with them. It's way too easy to miss what you are aiming at.

They have their issues (ask anyone that plays an Alch or an Arti) but they're AOE heals and have no range cap....

Hap

[Zarkarion]

So you made a tree that focuses on a useless pet in anything harder than Hard difficulty and trapmaking which I have not seen used in ever.


Slow clap....

And everybody is going to be using 2 levels of rogue anyway for the 3 imbue dice.

[Saekee]

1. will this class be able to select the feat Improved Feint? I suggest that this is so
2. The fun in this is the ranged assassinate assuming it can be done from stealth without breaking stealth. I suggest the following: a) archer's focus needs to be active; b) the DC--no idea; note that MtF boosts assassinate through stealth whereas this class does not have this. Perhaps having it possible only if you do not have aggro or they are bluffed, so called shot could open up a window to using it when under aggro or even just using the bluff skill. Or have it workable on enemies that fall under the bard instakill Coup de Grace (stunned, sleeping, dazed, etc). I suppose you could make the DC based upon MS/HS skills but that would be OP. I have no clue for scaling stuff. Perhaps a standing still bonus, sneak or otherwise. This would be very fun, very niche.
3. Combined with DS it looks like the level 18 core will give this build the same sneak speed as an assassin. The big difference is that an assassin will also get a movement speed buff from TA. Hence, there is no way this build will spend much time sneaking. It will be waaaay too slow, even at level 18, unless it splashes barbarian or you expect them to use some Destiny boost. It should not rely on a destiny skill to do this or another class. I do not know what to suggest, other than maybe giving it some speed bursts like the kitten race gets.
4. The threat range description is really confusing. It looks like you can take IC pierce and also get the benefits to bows? But it says "THIS bonus" referring to one already given so sloppy wording.

[drewollice]

1. will this class be able to select the feat Improved Feint? I suggest that this is so

Yes improved feint is available buttttt using it procs a bluff skill check and bluff is cross class so id be wary of using it.

[Dreppo]

Yes improved feint is available buttttt using it procs a bluff skill check and bluff is cross class so id be wary of using it.

Improved Feint (the feat) is not based on a skill check; it automatically applies the bluff effect.

[Dreppo]

Suggestion:

Make both Assassinate and Death Attack both use (rogue + dark hunter) class levels for DC calculation. That way it will be possible to make rogue/ranger hybrids that can still maintain a reasonable DC. You can only take either Assassinate or Death Attack of course, as they are both T5 abilities.

[yfernbottom]

They have their issues (ask anyone that plays an Alch or an Arti) but they're AOE heals and have no range cap....

Hap

I play Arti a lot, and find that I miss about 25% of the time with them. Of course I am almost always playing a WF. Maybe if that was my only way of healing myself I'd have better aim.

[drewollice]

Improved Feint (the feat) is not based on a skill check; it automatically applies the bluff effect.

Not true. Ive been testing it out today to see how bad it feels using cross class bluff. Check your combat log when using improved feint.

The feat is an aoe cone bluff check on separate cooldown from the bluff skill that also is a single target 2[W] attack.

Shiv (rogue t1 enhancement) and Exposing Strike (ranger stalker core3) are no-save bluffs. But improved feint uses the skill check. It would be sweet if they could make it also no-save tho

edit: For sanity check, I rolled a new toon and went to test dojo. improved feint indeed rolls a bluff check for each enemy in the cone, then it hits only hits/damage one enemy. Give it a whirl for yourself if you doubt me.

[unbongwah]

Well its not like Barb T5s dont give a universal +2 crit mult too...and, like Barb, there's no Comp crit range. Taking that enhancement locks you out of Tempest T5s as well, which is a big opportunity cost since that's basically the main reason to run a TWF Ranger

It means Dark Hunter 12 can have +2 crit multiplier +1 crit range (DWS level 12 core) with any weapon. The bard / barbarian combo is restricted to SWF Swashbuckling weapons, locks out the lawful-only classes, and requires two classes instead of only one.

Possible uses off the top of my head are:

• THF (or SWF) pure Dark Hunter with full pet. Falchions become 14-20/x4; SoS is 14-20/x5.
• THF Dark Hunter 12 / <Silvanus deity class> 6 with +3 crit range +2 crit multiplier for mauls
• SWF Dark Hunter 12 / Scaled Fist 6 / <cleric or FvS> 2(?) - centered WSS with +1 crit range +3 crit multiplier (Knight's Training), +5 crit multiplier with max Exalted Smite

Are any of these good builds? No idea! But I want to know if this crit bonus is WAI before I start making plans.

[Xharath]

So Arcane Archer ceases to exist?

Yes or the rogue,

Save the rogue, bring down the timer on assasinate, up the crit multiplier range of daggers, up the Dex bonus to dodge, so many mobs are immune to the sneak attack it’s mostly useless. Make reapers blind to the sneak of rogues and be able to assasinate. Perhaps then you can keep the assasin build viable.

[Coffey]

Are any of these good builds? No idea! But I want to know if this crit bonus is WAI before I start making plans.

Probably too good to be true

Pierce is applying to all weapons right now. Maybe they will release it this way and some people will get their three PLs in before they change it.

DL Lam now going to take a closer look at this.

[Pandjed]

OK, new verdict after some tests:

This archetype works well as a multiclass for monkcher, as you get evasion from monk, but several ranged feats and trap disable from this one. Traps work reasonably well also in multiclass, but setting traps takes too long. WIS-based is the way to go, because Falconry is probably the best combination to that tree, it makes blind, it boosts assassinate, and it boosts monk-stuff. Having Dark Hunter abilities not trigger on WIS is a bit strange as a ranger tree, as rogues have the luxury of either INT or DEX.
Well, Arcane Archer has also WIS based DCs but a +4 Dex capstone, so this is in theme?

As pure... really not that great. Same as DW-Stalker, always the problem of having no clear theme/playstyle. In a sense, it really feels like back then, when I tried a pure DWS, just less snappy and direct with its approach. DWS also wants to be stealthy and use both ranged and melee, despite the game not really supporting it, though DWS has sometimes an active that granted a ranged and mele version at the same time, or the t5 which also gets better with Power Attack boosts.

Use Magic Device in tier 3 with no additional effect feels a bit insulting. UMD is no class skill, like we would be so desperate to get more that we need to waste a tier 3 enhancement. Artificer gets that and a spellcraft bonus at tier 1.

Pet is about what to expect, but lacks some self-buffs a skeleton-enhancement of PM would get, which makes it very awkward to put more than the standard wolf into it.

Stealth-play doesn't feel great either (even if we discount how reapers make it hard for every quest instead specific ones you can mentally prepare for), at least the Ninja Spy had some ki-regen in sneak. Overall, this feels like the weakest part of the class by far. Deepwood Stalker currently has a better synergy with the archetype than its own tree, as it already grants sneak attack dice, fortification bypass and a better capstone imo. Maybe t5 DH and capstone DWS may be the best way to use this tree. Or Falconry.
If you put the stealth bonuses into DWS instead, this tree could use this design space for something different. DWS basically fills out already 90% of the idea of this tree, so putting more effort in pet (which is a bit base, spider would be cooler and better in theme) and trapmaking (creating SLA-like zones like the symbol spells, which can be used as traps or as an AoE) to make them viable for harder difficulties or adding something actual different to it seems to be much better. Or replace DWS with it, which I wouldn't recommend, but at least that thematically better fitting tree won't bother the new one anymore.

Or maybe add that archetype with this tree to fighter. Exchange some bonus feats for the trapper and sneak parts with the admixture as SLAs that cost no SP and then you get something that actually feels like an archetype that would feel much more intrusive to the mechanics than just adding trapper-stuff. This tree could replace Vanguard and maybe replace Stalward with either Thief Acrobat or Assassin (to either embrace the survivalist or the sneaker theme) and then it could become a very interesting archetype in itself, showing a survival expert without that fancy nature bond... well, could also be better than ranger as a whole though...

But the biggest weakness of this tree imo are
1. the rivalry to DWS
2. how it doesn't support its own abilities
3. how it's not supported by the ranger class
4. how it doesn't really feel like it changes the ranger in any meaningful way aside of trapfinding and disarming

[Xgya]

But the biggest weakness of this tree imo are
1. the rivalry to DWS
2. how it doesn't support its own abilities
3. how it's not supported by the ranger class
4. how it doesn't really feel like it changes the ranger in any meaningful way aside of trapfinding and disarming

Succinct yet pretty accurate, especially #1.

DWS does what this tree seems like it wants to do, but better.
That they didn't exchange the DH tree for DWS was a strange design decision given how similar their themes are.

The chassis itself (trapping, extra sneak die) DO help an actual DWS, so there's that, but the enhancement tree is in a bad spot.

If rewrites were possible (I know base designs tend to be set in stone, and we're here to suggest tweaks around the edges), I'd suggest changing the focus of the tree (to the wolf or traps, both of which wouldn't conflict with DWS because Ranger doesn't normally get those).

Things like letting the wolf benefit from the player's imbue, or giving them their own set of traps (giving them web traps as an SLA would be sweet, but I'd settle for satchels of underutilized elemental explosives).

[Ganak]

Themes: Assassination, sneaking, hunting, trapmaking, scavenging, throwing weapons


Let's break this down by themes...

Trapmaking: Does anyone other than new-ish soloists would make any kind of regular use of trapmaking? I've never used trapmaking nor seen its use. I want to be sensitive to all parts of the population.

Scavenging: ?? trap part collecting? Utility validity to any level of this game other than extreme niche solo trapmakers?

Throwing weapons: Really pigeon holes this build....but if that's what this is, then OWN it and double down on it being a thrown weapon tree.

"If you have Improved Critical: Piercing, this bonus to Threat Range is doubled." Hmmmm, this tree should warrant consideration to be: "If you have Improved Critical: ANYTHING, this bonus to Threat Range is doubled."

Sneaking: Love it for rangers. Double down on sneak speed and bonuses tied to sneak to make it practical. I do like many things in this first preview of this tree. Also, there was that past feat or destiny or bonus, I forget, that added Hide skill to damage/dps. Do something like that, that rewards sneaky behavior. Many players like sneaky, I know I do.

Assassination: Love it, but really pick a direction--dex or int--for abilities in this game. The trapfinding means an investment into Int.

Hunting: Abilities to assist with the pursuit and takedown of prey. Give the wolf familiar tier 5 ability to trip on a crit hit. Overall, be bullish about the tier 5 enhancements, the tree needs it.



Trap disabling is not a theme, so is there loyalty to this? Feels like a subpar rogue? Go strong or go home. Remove it and double down on being a stealthy hunter.




The admixtures (thrown pots): My experience (not recent) is throwing pots are sub-optimal as compared to spells. Feels like a downgrade from regular ranger.