UPDATE 58 PREVIEW 1 - Dark Hunter Ranger

[Lotoc]

yep. what's the point of ever being rogue in this game anymore? y'all need to go back to the drawing board on this one.

we both know, in fact we probably all know that the main use dark hunter is going to see is replacing regular ranger in rogue archer splits, it just won't replace ranger in imbue splits.
But we're gonna still see many more ranged rogues than we'll see ranged rangers, assassin rogues will still be the highest single target melee dps.
Nothing about this archetype is going to replace rogues as the top end performer at dealing damage.

[SpardaX]

But can someone confirm that _invisible_ is what is really meant here in the core enh, and not hidden? Because an archetype with a power that requires you to be _invisible_ with no in-class ability to do so sucks.

If it means hidden, clean the language please. Hidden makes sense. Invisible makes zero sense.

I was puzzled by this as well, until I realised that in T4, you can get Smoke Bomb as an SLA, which gives you 12 seconds of Invisibility. I think the core is meant to combo with that.

[Ladislaio]

General suggestion for the Assassinate Ability:
Works like Assassinate, but ranged and working with IPS. Thrown weapons proc a Phantasmal Killer effect on vorpal which uses your Assassinate DC (kind of like terror arrows).(Possibly only against Favored Enemies?)For 12 seconds after using this ability, your Black Wolf reduces damage it takes by 50% (the enhancement from Pale Master)

The tree has poor focus, as many have noted.

There is no +25% HP in the t5, so I assume this is intended to be a ranged tree. I imagine removing AA is more because you don't want to make this Archetype too good of a splash for ranged imbue builds, but it seems to me that removing Tempest would keep more with the theme.

I would suggest that you double down on the focus on throwing weapons and the pet for the tree.

Core 2Level 3)
Add "Simple Throw Weapon Expertise now also applies to Martial Thrown Weapons"

Core 3Level 6)
Smoke trap should always make them loose immunity to sneak attack, and on a failed save it should blind them. As it it is just a MUCH WORSE version of sniper shot.
Add "Multitude of Missiles now also applies to Martial Thrown Weapons"

Core 4Level 12)
Also add Doubleshot equal to your BAB for 20 seconds if you are using a Martial Thrown Weapon.

Core 5: (Level 18)
Replace with:
+25% Sneak speed. Gain +6 Ranged Power, +6 Doubleshot, +1 insight bonus to crit chance for Martial Thrown Weapons, +1 to hit, and +1 to the DC's of your Assassinate abilities for every 1 second you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to five times, and lasts 10 seconds after you come out of stealth. (So just a ranged version of Measure the Foe)
Your Black Wolf gains a permanent benefit of Nightshield.

Core 6 / Capstone : (Level 20)
Determine what "Cull the Weak" is.
Add:
+3 Imbue Dice
Your Black Wolf gains 9% Damage Reduction (as per Barbarian), 50 Healing amplification, and HP equal to Character level * 5. Your Black Wolf's attacks will blind and root foes (DC 20 + Your Dex Mod + Your Assassinate) on vorpal.
Your Black Wolf also gains Blood Strength: Each time you land a hit there is a 12% chance you heal positive damage equal to half your <character> level. Each time you kill an opponent you are healed for 20 hit points. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power. Blood Strength has a one-second cooldown when you kill an enemy.(from Ravager)
Your Black Wolf also now shares your Reaper Enhancements (If any).



Enhancement tweaks.
Tier 1:

Dark Wolf: You gain a Black Wolf as an Animal Companion. Each rank also gives you +5 HP.

Wolf Hide: (req Dark Wolf) +2/4/6 PRR Your Black Wolf gains 3/6/10% max hp.

Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks. Your pets and hirelings also gain this bonus.

Bleed the Weak: Imbue Toggle: 1d8 Bleed damage, scaling with 150% Ranged or Melee Power. Increases to 1d10 vs enemies below 50%, and increases again to 1d12 against enemies below 25%.This imbue (and any associated bonus dice) also applies to your Black Wolf.

Awareness: +1/2/3 Listen, Search, Spot, and to-hit.

Tier 2:

Furor of the Hunter: Your Black Wolf gains +3/6/10 to hit and damage, +2/4/6 Primal Bonus to AC, PRR, and MRR, and its attacks bypass 10%/20%/50% of enemy Fortification.

Assassin's Training: +1/2/3 Assassinate DCs.

Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks Your pets and hirelings also gain this bonus.

Improved Traps: +1/2/3 to the save DC's of Alchemical Trap Attacks and Magical Traps. Elemental Traps that you place now have a DC equal to 65/80/100% of your Disable Device Skill instead of 50%.

Action Boost: Skills or Sprint

Tier 3:

Primal Energy: Your Black Wolf gains a +2/+4/+6 Primal Bonus to all Ability Scores.

Snap Trap: Toss a snapping trap at the targeted enemy. If they don't make a Fortitude Save (DC 20 + Dex Mod + Assassinate + Bonus Trap DCs) they are rooted in place by the trap's jaws.

Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks Your pets and hirelings also gain this bonus.

Use Magical Device: +1/2/3 Use Magic Device

+1 Dex / Int / Wis

Tier 4:

Lupine Instincts: Your Black Wolf inherits your Search and Spot scores, and will automatically find traps and secret doors for you assuming you meet the statistical threshold. Your Black Wolf also gains a bonus to Hide and Move Silently equal to your total skill bonuses, and will remain in stealth whenever not attacking.

Slayer in the Dark: Killing an enemy grants you a +5 Morale bonus to Melee and Ranged Power, stacking 2/3/4 times. Duration: 20s Your pets and hirelings also gain this bonus.

Sneak Attack Training: +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks Your pets and hirelings also gain this bonus.

Smoke Bomb: Smoke Bomb SLA

+1 Dex / Int / Wis

Tier 5:

Ferocity: You gain +10% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. Your Black Wolf gains 25% Attack Speed and 100% Fortification Bypass. You gain a bonus to assassinate to Favored Enemies equal to half the number of Favored Enemy feats you have.

Stone's Hue: Your Camouflage spell also grants the target +1 PRR per 2 caster levels, max caster level 20.Your Black Wolf gains +25% HP

Death Attack: Ranged Assassinate. Balance TBD. From the pen and paper source, this is essentially a copy of the ability Assassinate from Assassin, so we're looking into a way to differentiate it from the Rogue ability. Open to suggestions on this front!Works like Assassinate, but ranged and working with IPS. Thrown weapons proc a Phantasmal Killer effect on vorpal which uses your Assassinate DC (kind of like terror arrows).(Possibly only against Favored Enemies?)For 12 seconds after using this ability, your Black Wolf reduces damage it takes by 50% (the enhancement from Pale Master)

Blade Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with your weapons. If you have Improved Critical: Piercing and/or Improved Critical: Throwing, this bonus to Threat Range is doubled.Your Black Wolf gains a bonus to Melee Power equal to one one third your Melee Power.

Dark Sight: You and your Black Wolf have True Seeing. You may also toggle this on to gain Underdark Sight while within the Underdark.

[Zeleron]

Ranger Features Removed:

• All Favored Enemy feats that are not: Vermin, Elf, Aberration, Animal, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid

Assuming since this is supposed to be based off of underdark creatures. Can you add Magical Beasts. There is a very prominent quest in underdark where you are eaten by a giant purple worm and fight your way out.

[JoeCamb02140]

Look, I like the concept of this class, but with Assassin and Falconry already in the game, what is this class bringing other than a missile instakill ability that is not tied to your pet, a.k.a. your bird from the falconry tree? This needs some further thought. Are you going to tie to a particular weapon? I just want to know how is it different. Don't get me wrong. A line of sight instakill for mobs that can't see or find me is great. Except I can see the rebalance coming where mobs can detect sneaking players around corners and several levels away again. RIP sneaking in the name of game balance.

Like I said, this feels less than half-baked.

[Yamani]

Core 6 / Capstone : (Level 20)
Determine what "Cull the Weak" is.

A complete shot in the dark but I think Cull the Weak is the d12 version of Bleed the weak. So Always doing d12 bleed imbue damage against blind mobs.

[thegreatcthulhu]

Thoughts / Feedback on the enhancement tree itself:

Death Stalker:
- The ONLY way I can see this having long term usefulness to a player is if they purposefully avoid equipment that provides relentless fury AND make a conscious effort to integrate sneak into their play style. This causes the opportunity cost of using this class to grow further, the more I think about it. But on the flip side, this in a way provides relentless fury on demand. Clever.

My Suggestion: This is a tough call for me, because I CAN SEE how the potential value in this enhancement, if the player choses to "play the class" the way the tree is imposing. I think however it could provide a bit more and perhaps add something that helps drive home the "death" portion of the core's name. And from there, I think it would be worth looking into having it provide an enhancement to the wolf itself.


Use Magical Device
- I acknowledge you can find a similar enhancement in the Rogue's own Mechanic tree, so I can see why you stuck this here. However, I question the overall usefulness of these types of abilities in end game content. In my experience, it's very easy to meet UMD requirements with minimal effort, even before you hit level 32.

- The overall usefulness of this as a tier 3 enhancement is also questionable in itself. I say this because, it seems most of what I would call the more "modernized" enhancement trees keep the +skill enhancements in their lower tiers.

My Suggestion: This needs to be moved out and replaced with another active ability OR it needs to provide something more significant. If you want to work off what was placed in there by popping in stuff from Rogue, then I suggest mixing in something else Rogue-ish that was gained by sacrificing the option to use Arcane Archer.


Lupine Instincts
- OK at first glance, but I've always found the trap finding skills to be lackluster in end game because of the availability of things like Legendary Frogo (I personally think he's worth every penny btw) and/or just having the sheer amount of survival power to act like a Barb running through a trap yelling: "TRAPS?! BARBARIAN NO CARE!!!!!!!"

My Suggestion: Have it upgrade the wolf's own combat capabilities. An enhancement like this, to me, should provide a readily noticeable upgrade to the wolf. So, it makes sense to me that this should give the wolf some more umph in combat as well as in sense of their surroundings.


Death Attack

- My thoughts on this one are limited at best since I do NOT play Rogues. But based on what I've experienced with Falconry, I think you should have this provide something that brings out the Wolf's part of the experience better.

My Suggestion: Have it provide some sort of bleeding damage or other effect that is unavoidable. I think whatever it is, it should be something that reflects the Wolf's own contribution to the experience. Basically, make it reflect the notion that this is the wolf's way of saying "I'm either going to leave you with a torn throat and bleeding to death or you're still going to be wishing you hadn't started this fight with my pack." I know this will probably get it compared to Falconry but again, we're a ranger with a Black Wolf as our friend, so may as well show what he can really do when we're over half-way to level 20.

Stone's Hue

- This seems underwhelming and feels like it should be moved down to tier 4. It reminds me too much of the lower tier enhancements found in Feydark Illusionist.

My Suggestion: I LIKE the idea of having it boost camo, but I think it needs to provide an additional bonus to either the pet or the character's own offensive capabilities.

Dark Sight

- This looks like a filler enhancement right now and something a lot of players will end up dumping or swapping out once or twice via enhancement point resets.
- The reason I say that is because there are so many other ways a player can get True Seeing from other sources.
- Another reason for this is the obviously questionable end game usefulness of having Underdark Sight (unless Vecna is planning on getting Lolth involved again later this year).

My Suggestion: Rather than throw out this enhancement altogether, add one additional bonus to it that provides something that has value/benefit in a broader sense. Whatever that may be, I'd leave that up to you Torc. But obvious candidates would be a stacking bonus of some sort (I.E. +To Hit, Doubleshot, ranged power, etc). It doesn't have to be anything super powerful. Hopefully you'll consider improving it before U58 goes live.

[Scrag]

I was puzzled by this as well, until I realised that in T4, you can get Smoke Bomb as an SLA, which gives you 12 seconds of Invisibility. I think the core is meant to combo with that.

Ew.

That would require 20 points into the tree, which means starting out from level 1 you are unlikely to get it as there are lots of other low hanging, low ap cost things to invest in that have an outsized effect.

And it is just 12 seconds. You have to spam it during combat because (at least solo) combat takes more than 12 seconds to complete on hard or elite with a pack of mobs.

I could only see this being viable with a horrid splash of 3 wizard, when I would probably want rogue 5, 1 fighter, 14 ranger (gets 1 4th which would be freedom of movement for me).

Please note that this tree comes with gobs and gobs and gobs of hidden...

[SpardaX]

Ew.

That would require 20 points into the tree, which means starting out from level 1 you are unlikely to get it as there are lots of other low hanging, low ap cost things to invest in that have an outsized effect.

And it is just 12 seconds. You have to spam it during combat because (at least solo) combat takes more than 12 seconds to complete on hard or elite with a pack of mobs.

I could only see this being viable with a horrid splash of 3 wizard, when I would probably want rogue 5, 1 fighter, 14 ranger (gets 1 4th which would be freedom of movement for me).

Please note that this tree comes with gobs and gobs and gobs of hidden...

You have to spam it during combat because (at least solo) combat takes more than 12 seconds to complete on hard or elite with a pack of mobs.

The thing here is, at least as currently written / proposed, that the double SA damage lasts only 5 seconds, has a cooldown of 60 seconds, and starts the moment you enter invisibility.
I think what they're going for here is:
if you're a melee character, run into the middle of the enemy group and smoke bomb.
If you're a ranged character, before you enter a fight, the very last thing you do is smoke bomb.
I think it's supposed to be like an explosive ambush / surprise attack thing.

Bam. 5 seconds of extra damage, and you're invisible so unless the enemy can see invisibility, all your attacks are SAs, so throw as many attacks out in that 5 seconds as you can. Once that's over, you have 60 seconds before you can do it again, so you don't need to spam smoke bomb, because whether you spam smoke bomb or not, the Core 12 feature having the 60 second cooldown makes it a 1 per fight ability. (Not including bosses that take longer than 60 seconds to kill of course)

I posted above, and at least one other person I saw also said, 5 seconds on / 60 seconds off seems very small, so we both suggested either 10 on / 60 off, or 5 on / 30 off. But even at those time durations, even if it's changed to 5 on / 30 off, unless you're quite fast and efficient, that's still going to end up as roughly a 1 per fight ability. (Not including bosses that take longer than 30/60 seconds to kill of course)

That would require 20 points into the tree, which means starting out from level 1 you are unlikely to get it as there are lots of other low hanging, low ap cost things to invest in that have an outsized effect.

It's a level 12 core. You aren't getting it until you have over half your total ap. And taking a level 12 core ALSO requires 20 points in the tree.

I mean, we are both talking about the same thing here right? You're initial post about an ability that requires invisibility was referring to this?

Core 12:

Escape Through the Dark: Whenever you become Invisible, your Sneak Attack Dice are briefly doubled. This lingers for 5 seconds after you become Invisible and may only trigger once every 60 seconds.

[SpardaX]

What's the Role this Class Fills?

Rogue, but with the DPS slider turned down and the HP and BaB and Saves sliders turned up?

[Zeranil]

Loving the thematic flavor but giving a pet to the tree does not help the sneaky part of his skills set, an option could be to meld the wolf and the traps concept handling it like the falconer skills so by example: replace smoke trap by something like a wolf ambush (an skill using the druid animation) but using the same effect and calculation, the same could be applied to the other traps so snap trap could be summon a wolf to bite the targets ankles and so....
The skills that boost the wolf could be replaced by short time buffs.
The imbue dice and the core and all the other skills on the tree looks good!

[sjbb87]

I loved the theme in general.
I think with a few tweaks it would be perfect.
And I also have some doubts.

Ranger Features Removed:

• All Favored Enemy feats that are not: Vermin, Elf, Aberration, Animal, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid

Humanoid: Became just one? Or remains separate (Dwarfs, Humans, Elves Etc).

You gain a Black Wolf as an Animal Companion

Why not give this as the basis of the class and the tree just be like improving the pet, as it is with the Druid

Death Attack

Do the melee version too, and gaining a bonus if you are using the skill on the same target that your pet or ally is attacking

Blade Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with your weapons. If you have Improved Critical: Piercing, this bonus to Threat Range is doubled.

Last and not least.
Give as multiple choice between Threat Range or Damage Multiplier, that would work for both Tempest and DWS.
And it give this skill at core 12, the same way it is with the other trees of the class.
And once again I really liked this variation

[Igrovin]

Stealth focus class.. Gets a pet that doesn't stealth.

[Seph1roth5]

Pets are in a horrible place right now. You could double or triple all the bonuses the wolf gets in this tree and it would still be hot trash. Please don't consider it anything more than a lever puller or a temporary distraction equal to a lv 1 hireling when making trees.

Pets would be much more useful if they functioned like falconer's bird. Something out there but not relying on their own AI or speed. They could just add a DoT when you attack something, or have their own active attacks like the bird.

[Ladislaio]

A complete shot in the dark but I think Cull the Weak is the d12 version of Bleed the weak. So Always doing d12 bleed imbue damage against blind mobs.

I see what you did there.

[Diracorvus]

Right now this is just a better ranger, especially with trap finding. It needs to lose something more than just a few favoured enemy choices. Maybe it should lose healing spells in general instead of getting admixtures.
Also if you are spreading trap finding around anyway, how about making rogue hirelings in heroic available with platinum and adding a few higher level epic rogue hirelings?

[VinoeWhines]

Why does this notion at Standing Stone keep unfolding, in taking away Rogue abilities and giving it to other classes.

Mechanic Rogue had a pet dog= take it away and give it to Artificer and improve on Artificers ability than a Mechanic Rogues.
Cheat Death taken away and given to Monks Rise of the Phoenix.
Rogue ability to throw flasks given and improved 10 fold to Alchemists, while Rogues ability is worthless.
Now giving Rangers better ability to trap and MAKE better traps, then a Rogue with Rangers ability to throw traps? I mentioned these improvements to the Rogue tree and every time other classes/races get the improvements.

Shadow Dancer lost all it's useful abilities that shouldn't of been removed in Shadow Manipulation(now given to Shiradi in Beguile Charm), Consume (a form of Implosion that is gone), Executioner's Strike/Shot(removed and given to Falconry and now Ranger).
I know the Epic Destiny can be picked by any class, but previous Shadow Dancer had more going for it than it does now and is much watered down, (a Rogue can't even pick Weird but an Artificer can?)

Again you are adding abilities to this tree that completely usurp and offer more viability than it's original class in a stealthy trapping Rogue.
Throwing a bear trap at an enemy is cool, but for a Rogue not be able to do that, as they should of had Sneak Attack dice and Assassinate DC included in their flasks/traps, like Alchemists are able to boost theirs. Artificers/Alchemists and now Dark Hunter Rangers are bumped up soo much from what the originators of these abilities in Rogues that these Rogue abilities become useless in the game(trapmaking/vials/smokebombs/throwing traps now?) AND a Range Assassinate more perching safety nets? Whose going to want to be in stealth and in touch range to Assassinate? What's the benefit in that for a Rogue, when the cost of a fail means detection and cleave attack death. It's already bad and dangerous enough being melee class.

Again is this class calling card saying, "look, I'm a better stealthy trapmaker than you, and can range kill faster than you can reach your target and if I fail, I can throw a bear trap and hold it(CC) better than your weak trapping ability that's comical at best(I even have smoke bombs that you don't)

Why does the Rogue class keep being taken away abilities and being given to other classes in a better and more powerful way?

These Rogue abilities gone:
Capstone Vorpal on 20
Cheat Death
Ability to make dog
Trapmaking DC'S(and no Sneak Dice/Assassinate DC's) not viable at end game.
Throwing Vials that are heroic level bad and Alchemists vials shine.

I would say Dark Ranger Hunters Tier V should be more akin to Mortal Fear(ability to cut non boss enemies life by half with cooldown) than outright Assassinate ability.

[Scrag]

The thing here is, at least as currently written / proposed, that the double SA damage lasts only 5 seconds, has a cooldown of 60 seconds, and starts the moment you enter invisibility.
I think what they're going for here is:
..

I posted above, and at least one other person I saw also said, 5 seconds on / 60 seconds off seems very small, so we both suggested either 10 on / 60 off, or 5 on / 30 off. But even at those time durations, even if it's changed to 5 on / 30 off, unless you're quite fast and efficient, that's still going to end up as roughly a 1 per fight ability. (Not including bosses that take longer than 30/60 seconds to kill of course)

..

I mean, we are both talking about the same thing here right? You're initial post about an ability that requires invisibility was referring to this?

Core 12:

Escape Through the Dark: Whenever you become Invisible, your Sneak Attack Dice are briefly doubled. This lingers for 5 seconds after you become Invisible and may only trigger once every 60 seconds.

So highly situational. I would have to think about it, but it seems like a bunch of other things in the tree are nicer to have than that core.

Except bleed. Bleed? Really? :| There goes undead, elementals, golems, other junk. However since you can't really pick any of that as favored enemies anyway, its just more wood on the fire?

edit: I still think it could be pretty good but it seems like a bunch of filler for the good stuff I would want. :/

[Gralhota]

Druids have companions, this is inherent in class. If you have a pet, put enhancments that buff the minions, all of them, not just the wolf.


Not everything needs to be an R10 Solo killer.


Or remove ALL minions from the game since you guys do nothing for them.

And again


Not everything needs to be an R10 Solo killer.


Fun is subjective. It may be that most are satisfied with the ramster wheel, with each update climbs a few dots of the same things, come on! Pick up the new item that increases a few points of the attributes, abilities, always the most of it.

Others want diversity, not everyone wants to be the badass of R10

[Igrovin]

So highly situational. I would have to think about it, but it seems like a bunch of other things in the tree are nicer to have than that core.

Except bleed. Bleed? Really? :| There goes undead, elementals, golems, other junk. However since you can't really pick any of that as favored enemies anyway, its just more wood on the fire?

edit: I still think it could be pretty good but it seems like a bunch of filler for the good stuff I would want. :/

Well can cheat a little bit and pick up Knife Fighter to get undead or harper to get their favored enemy.