Are they really *Broken*? (rolling true iconic) and Multi Class advice please

[Barney279]

I have bought/unlocked currently :

Shadar-kai Assassin

Bladeforged Paladin

Deep Gnome Wizard

Assimar Scourge

Tabaxi Trailblazer
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I have heard that all *Given* classes for the Iconics (and the standard classes) are Broken - what does this mean? And how true is it?

Also with my Multi class question:

I know with the iconics we are FORCED to take the first level into the iconic (even if custom) as you start as level one in that specific race/class

But lets say i want to - for example - roll a Shadar-kai Iconic Barbarian, or a Deep Gnome Iconic Druid, or a Tabaxi Iconic Fighter - etc... how would they be with those at 29 in the class i prefer with 1 level as the respective forced?

The reason i even want to change the beginning class of the iconics and i don't roll a flat race/class combination is simply because i would like to know how they play at higher levels and test them out rather than playing from 1/4/7 and taking the long journey and realize after 2 levels i don't like them
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Any advice or further info on this would be appreciated (i cannot afford +1/+5 HoW and wouldn't want to waste them even if i could)

[rabidfox]

I have heard that all *Given* classes for the Iconics (and the standard classes) are Broken - what does this mean? And how true is it?

I assume they were talking about "paths" for a classes and how they're generally not good because they're typically outdated; one is better off using customize to setup any character. https://ddowiki.com/page/Path

[EdsanDarkbane]

I also enjoy multi-classing and making my build my own but if you would permit I would suggest running to voxy trailblazer monk with some rogue there should be a build around it's very simple and extremely fun good luck my friend

[KoobTheProud]

Most of the Iconics are pretty neutral by design.

A few of them are less than ideal, likely by design.

Morninglord is a Cleric that gets +2 Int (neutral) and -2 Con (not ideal).

Bladeforged is a Paladin that gets +2 Con (ideal) and -2 Wis (not ideal).

Shadar-Kai is a Rogue that gets +2 Dex (ideal) and -2 Cha (not ideal).

In some cases a +1 Lesser Heart gives you access to a better pure build in the Iconics that are less than ideal. Morninglords make great Rogues and Wizards and very good Warlocks. Bladeforged make great Favored Souls and THF Fighters and are great Paladins with no +1 Lesser heart required.

[Seph1roth5]

Are you new to the game? I keep telling new people not to multiclass lol. It's a mess if you don't know what you're doing and you wind up doing 2-3 things you otherwise couldn't do, but your character is like 10x worse than if you had just stayed one class. You don't need a few levels of wizard for spells, you don't need a fighter level for proficiency.

That said, I had a lot of fun with various swashbuckler/shadarkai mixes.

[SilentRunning]

before this whole "imbue" thing set in I had a Shadar-kai Alchemist that did fairly well, was it exceptional? probably not by most people's standards here but it did well enough for me.

[QuantumFX]

I have heard that all *Given* classes for the Iconics (and the standard classes) are Broken - what does this mean?

What do you mean "what does this mean?"? Was someone claiming they're overpowered? Were they talking about the prebuilt paths? Was it someone who was so mad about the forced first level that they forgot how the English language works? Did you read an old Lamannia post about how Archetypes weren't working in the first preview? "Broken" can be interpreted a lot of ways.

With the singular exception of the Morninglord, the iconic races work very well with the class that SSG tries to railroad you into. The only problem is that you'll want a lot racial action points for most of them to truly take advantage of them.

[mikarddo]

Most of the Iconics are pretty neutral by design.

A few of them are less than ideal, likely by design.

Morninglord is a Cleric that gets +2 Int (neutral) and -2 Con (not ideal).

Bladeforged is a Paladin that gets +2 Con (ideal) and -2 Wis (not ideal).

Shadar-Kai is a Rogue that gets +2 Dex (ideal) and -2 Cha (not ideal).

In some cases a +1 Lesser Heart gives you access to a better pure build in the Iconics that are less than ideal. Morninglords make great Rogues and Wizards and very good Warlocks. Bladeforged make great Favored Souls and THF Fighters and are great Paladins with no +1 Lesser heart required.

Why does -2 Cha for a rogue? The melee rogues I have seen in play are definitely very, very strong, so I am unsure why consider Shadar-Kai less than ideal.

Similarly, why should -2 Wis matter on a Paladin? You should have plenty of wisdom to cast spells so I am unsure why slightly less wisdom would be considered an issue.

Morninglord I do agree with.

[QuantumFX]

Similarly, why should -2 Wis matter on a Paladin? You should have plenty of wisdom to cast spells so I am unsure why slightly less wisdom would be considered an issue.

I'm guessing he believes that somewhere in the Paladin spell list is one with a DC check. And, to be clear, they don't.

[DaviMOC]

Without tomes at the beginning getting the 14 required wis for lvl 4 spells can be a problem for some or at least a gear slot ocuppied just for that.

Talking about being Ideal the early iconics ( shar, bF, sunelf and PDK) tends to favor a different class that is not theirs that goes beyond stat bonus.

PDK for instance are nice fighters but are more cha oriented what would be nice to be on a bard or paladin.

SunElfs used to be the go to wiz race on other d&d games, its tree gives a heal to a class that already have some nice heals and spellcasting benefits that would fit better on a arcane class. Sunelf tree also have some nice weapon enhancments in a deity that is not that great for melee clerics.

Bladeforged is a melee that have issues with healing. Have a nice self heal in a class that is already good on self healing. Back before second wind that was a big invitation for a fighter.

Shar used to be the only one most alingned with its own class however its tree was kind of useless broken. Nowdays they kind of fixed it and shardarkai rogues are very solid.


Each iconic can be good on their own class but they all have some sort of a trick to push or make you want it pure on another class. Also with time some of the issues were solved or mitigated by changes and revamps the game presented.

[kpak01]

I'm guessing he believes that somewhere in the Paladin spell list is one with a DC check.

There's several spells on the Paladin list where an enemy would have to make a saving throw against the Paladin's DC, which is a reason it might theoretically matter.

But almost all Paladins don't care and don't use those spells that way, which is why in practice it doesn't matter.

[Marshal_Lannes]

In the grand scheme of things, a -2 or +2 here or there makes no difference. I've played a Dwarf Warlock on racial lives and never worried about the -2 CHA to start. I think another way to look at this is what active iconic past life do you want? Once you decide that, virtually any build can be put on the iconic - at the very least you can make an inquisitive out of them. Or good advice was given to simply stay in the pure class. Every iconic can make a perfectly functional character.

For me, Iconics really shine on hardcore. You get higher starting stats and an equipment package at L15, which depending on the Iconic, some of the items are quite useful (hello vorpal sword on the PDK). I've hit the max favor and 10 reaper point rewards on multiple iconics so if these work in hardcore with basic gear and no legacy items, they will certainly work on Live servers in a full kit.

[Livmo]

In the grand scheme of things, a -2 or +2 here or there makes no difference. I've played a Dwarf Warlock on racial lives and never worried about the -2 CHA to start. I think another way to look at this is what active iconic past life do you want? Once you decide that, virtually any build can be put on the iconic - at the very least you can make an inquisitive out of them. Or good advice was given to simply stay in the pure class. Every iconic can make a perfectly functional character.

Right now I'm playing Shadar Wiz (DC : ) and Bladeforged Sorc (electro)

[QuantumFX]

There's several spells on the Paladin list where an enemy would have to make a saving throw against the Paladin's DC, which is a reason it might theoretically matter.

But almost all Paladins don't care and don't use those spells that way, which is why in practice it doesn't matter.

I'm curious about which spells you're so clearly wrong about. Other than Cure Wounds Spells, which are primarily cures and not attack spells, which paladin spells do you think have a DC?

[Caarb]

Similarly, why should -2 Wis matter on a Paladin? You should have plenty of wisdom to cast spells so I am unsure why slightly less wisdom would be considered an issue.

Most of us have forgotten that Paladins need 14 Wisdom to cast 4th level spells. Its not a concern for most of us as we will get that very early with items/tomes/buffs etc but for a first lifer its relevant especially if they dont have a guild. So less than ideal is probably right for new players - insignificant for everyone else

[FuzzyDuck81]

Most of us have forgotten that Paladins need 14 Wisdom to cast 4th level spells. Its not a concern for most of us as we will get that very early with items/tomes/buffs etc but for a first lifer its relevant especially if they dont have a guild. So less than ideal is probably right for new players - insignificant for everyone else

Still pretty irrelevant since you won't have access to level 4 spells as a paladin until you're level 14, even on a bladeforged so long as you put a 4 points in to bump it up to 10 to start you'll be starting at level 15 with a +4 WIS item (itself woefully underpowered since random loot will be at least +6 stats at that point) that'll give you all the wis you need.