Dual Shooting is BAD endgame.

[Ladislaio]

Am I missing something here. Should NHB work with only holding 1 xbow. NHB should only work in dual shooter mode. Yes/no

I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

NHB states 'light or heavy (non-repeating) crossbow', so as written it should work either way.

I am pretty sure that it works with gxbow also, but think that is a bug.

[catweasle]

Added a youtube video of the NHB tests.
https://youtu.be/ClqJj0TAhSo

I watched your video and I agree that it is perplexing that Single Shooting is faster under the conditions you mentioned. Does that mean in broad terms that a repeater build will be better than an Inquis Dual Shooter build?

[Ladislaio]

I watched your video and I agree that it is perplexing that Single Shooting is faster under the conditions you mentioned. Does that mean in broad terms that a repeater build will be better than an Inquis Dual Shooter build?

I have not personally tested RoF of repeaters so this set of tests and number crunching has no direct comment on this.

Having a few people test their repeater builds for me suggests that RoF, at 100 double shot, 15% Alac, and 25 BAB, and rotating on NHB/Endless, goes Single(t5 inq/rog) >= Great (t5 rog) > Repeater (12 arti+feat) > Repeater > dual shooting (t5 inq)> single (no enhancements) > Great (no enhancements), but I have yet to repeat all of these tests personally, and don't consider this to hold up to the level of rigor to include it in the OP.

It is also important to note that not every style is created equally in what each bolt does either; Heavy/light xbows can use the inquisitor imbue (d10 200% ranged power) and the alch imbue (d8 100% spell power w/ bypass), both of which fit very naturally into builds, while the imbues for repeaters or great xbows are more limited. Arti (d6 100% spell power), rogue (d8 200% ranged power, poison no bypass), or wizard (d8 100% spell power) are all options but have difficulties or are just plain weaker than the heavy/light xbow options.

Also because it will come up sneak attack is d6, 150% ranged power, so a SA die is pretty much always worth less than an imbue die.

[Tilomere]

Testing by some also show light fires faster than heavy, which may be race or sex dependant.

[Ladislaio]

Testing by some also show light fires faster than heavy, which may be race or sex dependant.

My tests (Female Gnome) showed that Light and Heavy had the same RoF durring NHB. I haven't tested different races or genders, and I didn't test RoF for light xbow except for during NHB.

[Smokewolf]

Regardless of the rate of fire, ALL crossbows ( including repeaters) share one thing in common.

Poor critical threat and multipliers!

The fact that most of your base damage can't get past a mobs innate DR is very telling. Especially when Bow users can crit over 100k. Hell, I've even managed 70k criticals with a bow-wizard (with manyshot), yet the crossbow equivalent to this build couldn't manage half that. Where this becomes most noticeable is Reaper-5 or higher, where even the trash mobs are a serious challenge for a well geared Artificer. I'd dare say it's why you don't see many Arties or Inquisitives running in R10 groups. (They are more often carried by the group)

It's been said before that the Dev's don't really like ranged-players and have tweeked the game in favor of melees to encourage their use.

-Smoke

[Ladislaio]

Regardless of the rate of fire, ALL crossbows ( including repeaters) share one thing in common.

Poor critical threat and multipliers!

The fact that most of your base damage can't get past a mobs innate DR is very telling. Especially when Bow users can crit over 100k. Hell, I've even managed 70k criticals with a bow-wizard (with manyshot), yet the crossbow equivalent to this build couldn't manage half that. Where this becomes most noticeable is Reaper-5 or higher, where even the trash mobs are a serious challenge for a well geared Artificer. I'd dare say it's why you don't see many Arties or Inquisitives running in R10 groups. (They are more often carried by the group)

It's been said before that the Dev's don't really like ranged-players and have tweeked the game in favor of melees to encourage their use.

-Smoke

Before I respond I do want to stress this thread isn't about maximizing dps overall (if you want to do that, roll a sorc), but maximizing dps as an inquis at cap. Having said this to address your comment...

If you want to try to bypass DR by crits you are doing it wrong. If you need bypass, slot it.
Evenmoreso with the build outlined here, you do about 2/3's of you damage with poison, and you have 2 methods to fully bypass poision immunity. Build is fully able to dps carry r10 and soloing r8 usually isn't a big problem. R6 is easy mode.

A measurable thing to comment on DPS is that the 16 alch / 2 monk / 2 arti build will solo kill a doom reaper in R10 TOEE Nodes before the reaper will reach it, without having to move or use it's epic moment, just NHB.

Also, melee? Really? In r10? LMAO. Don't do much damage as a soulstone. I would bet an otto's box that there isn't a melee build that can do the raw dps of a dps optimized xbow build either, even against a target that isn't moving or hitting back, unless perhaps you run the clock out to 30m+ of constant dps with no shrines.

I'm also pretty confident that xbow out dps's a normal bow right now, particularly at trash clearing where you want to use IPS not archer's focus. The really really high ranged power of 25 archer's focus stacks makes me less confidant with single target dps where you can get the stacks tho.

[LavidDynch]

Before I respond I do want to stress this thread isn't about maximizing dps overall (if you want to do that, roll a sorc), but maximizing dps as an inquis at cap. Having said this to address your comment...

If you want to try to bypass DR by crits you are doing it wrong. If you need bypass, slot it.
Evenmoreso with the build outlined here, you do about 2/3's of you damage with poison, and you have 2 methods to fully bypass poision immunity. Build is fully able to dps carry r10 and soloing r8 usually isn't a big problem. R6 is easy mode.

A measurable thing to comment on DPS is that the 16 alch / 2 monk / 2 arti build will solo kill a doom reaper in R10 TOEE Nodes before the reaper will reach it, without having to move or use it's epic moment, just NHB.

Also, melee? Really? In r10? LMAO. Don't do much damage as a soulstone. I would bet an otto's box that there isn't a melee build that can do the raw dps of a dps optimized xbow build either, even against a target that isn't moving or hitting back, unless perhaps you run the clock out to 30m+ of constant dps with no shrines.

I'm also pretty confident that xbow out dps's a normal bow right now, particularly at trash clearing where you want to use IPS not archer's focus. The really really high ranged power of 25 archer's focus stacks makes me less confidant with single target dps where you can get the stacks tho.

oh lordy.. well that figures. it all makes sense now.

[catweasle]

If you want to try to bypass DR by crits you are doing it wrong. If you need bypass, slot it.
Evenmoreso with the build outlined here, you do about 2/3's of you damage with poison, and you have 2 methods to fully bypass poision immunity. Build is fully able to dps carry r10 and soloing r8 usually isn't a big problem. R6 is easy mode.

A measurable thing to comment on DPS is that the 16 alch / 2 monk / 2 arti build will solo kill a doom reaper in R10 TOEE Nodes before the reaper will reach it, without having to move or use it's epic moment, just NHB.

You mention you have 2 methods to bypass poison immunity. Are you talking about Poisoned Attack and Wave of Poison from the Vile Chemist tree? I tried Wave of Poison and while it works, it's rather clunky and short ranged as a cone which is not ideal. The wiki seems to suggest that Poisoned Attack has some bugs when used with crossbows. Would it be better to go 16 wiz instead of 16 alch using EK tree?

I also wonder if 2 rogue is better than 2 monk. It's probably an even trade. 2 rogue gives you 3 imbue dice instead of 1 for monk as well as more skill points. But costs 8 points in the assassin tree and you get 2 more feats with monk. What are your thoughts on this?

[Ladislaio]

You mention you have 2 methods to bypass poison immunity. Are you talking about Poisoned Attack and Wave of Poison from the Vile Chemist tree? I tried Wave of Poison and while it works, it's rather clunky and short ranged as a cone which is not ideal. The wiki seems to suggest that Poisoned Attack has some bugs when used with crossbows. Would it be better to go 16 wiz instead of 16 alch using EK tree?

I also wonder if 2 rogue is better than 2 monk. It's probably an even trade. 2 rogue gives you 3 imbue dice instead of 1 for monk as well as more skill points. But costs 8 points in the assassin tree and you get 2 more feats with monk. What are your thoughts on this?

First on monk... Better is subjective. 2 Rogue is more damage, with the SA dice and Imbue dice. Skill points don't matter, Alch + int base = TO MANY SKILLS. The major reason I pick Monk over Rogue is deflect arrows. AP is too tight to splurge the 6 to get out of VKF if you go rogue, and with monk you can get it as a feat. When running pugs on r10 deflect arrows is a life saver not to be overlooked.

Yes, I'm talking about Poisoned Attack and Wave of Poison from VC tree. I have no problem with any of the bugs with Poisoned Attack mentioned on the wiki, most likely because I'm single shooting not dual shooting. I sometimes have to mash the attack button a few times for it to actually fire, but it always does and the animation isn't "very long" and just cycles like a normal attack... my hands glow red for a second or two tho. Wave of Poison I almost never use, but it technically counts as an option.

EK's elemental imbues seem nice except... you would have to gear/build around multiple spell powers because you have no bypass. Wizard is also much less useful for the build than Alch, as alch has a higher BAB (matters for feats), gets Greater Elemental Weapons and a Heal as spells, the bonus feats are better for the build, they get Int: Damage as a feat instead of having to put points into Harper or Feydark to get damage on the xbow, bottled boost: Double is nice for the (rare) event of having run out of NHB charges, AND the VC tree is more friendly for ranged weapons than the EK tree. For light/heavy xbow, I haven't been able to match Alch with Wiz/sorc. Some of this is utility and survivability, I think that if you just focused on DPS EK may be able to squeak out ahead as you can get higher spell power for elementals fairly easily. Leveling may be worse because you don't get IPS until epics on most build splits.

Also, remember, you always have the option of switching over to the Inquis Law Imbue if you don't want to bother with bypassing resists for an entire quest... It costs some dps (usually) but it IS an option. Along that lines, on paper, with the gearing solution I currently use, I think the highest DPS option for this type of build is 15 rog / 4 arti / 1 monk (41 inquis, 25 rog mech, 13 rog assassin, 1 henshin) running the Law imbue... but it looses in utility and requires constant scrolling of Tenser's so I haven't actually run or tested it.

oh lordy.. well that figures. it all makes sense now.

I'm glad you finally were able to find the time to watch the short RoF video! Yay you!

[Tilomere]

Inb4nerf (again)

Care to explain a bit more to us who lack detailed knowledge?

more than likely spell threat
As far as i know every one as gotten hit, which again it wasn't like this on lamannia at all

It doesn't have to do with this thread (although this definitely didn't help), but with the economic model the game runs on. The game sells power, which can be purchased in the form of XP boosts/XP and applied to the power boost of choice (PL) and enables one to skip to the process of legendary power accumulation (SXp/RXp).

They ran out of iconic classes, and couldn't make a Sorc/Alc/Druid/Arti iconic, because AoE casters are optimal XP = Power earners, which would cut into their economy above permanently as a player satisfied with a given rate of power accumulation may find it within a single time Sorc/Alc/Druid/Arti iconic instead of constant store purchases.

So they swapped to Archtypes, with the idea that they could only start as iconics close to legendary (RXp/SXp) power accumulation with store purchase of a +1 heart to be powerful for capstone-based power accumulation. This has the obvious flaw that one could throw away the entire archetype and all class capstones and be a capstone inquisitor without the +1 heart. Harper and Falconry have never been viable primary trees. Horizon Walker previously had bow nerfs applied to the point that people already complain a bow is painful to level so needed no such adjustment.

Inquisitor therefore was in the way of the new economic model, and therefore needed to be nerfed to the power of a non-capstone class build to reduce end game inquisitor power accumulation and protect sale of power. Vistani without imbues is so backloaded like bows it was not problematic but combined with imbues results in much the same effect as inquisitor.

Therefore, in a roundabout way, because they can't just charge $45 a month for a sub to pay for the lag reduction recoding and other improvements, inquisitor was getting nerfed, while the usage case of vistani combined with imbues was also getting a shave and a haircut, 2 bits. The nerf was, in a roundabout way, announced with archtypes as the developing business model six months or so ago.

[droid327]

They just need to remove Doubleshot penalties. All of them. Problem solved.

There's no reason to reduce the scaling of some ranged weapons and not others, when Doubleshot is now just a pure linear multiplier for your DPS and is totally agnostic of ROF or other differences between ranged weapons.

If weapons are balanced at L5 with low Doubleshot, then they should still be balanced at L30 with high Doubleshot. If they're not, then the imbalance is coming from something else, and that should be addressed, not trying to compensate with a Doubleshot penalty (and then reverse-compensated, for Repeaters, with Expanded Clip). Especially since that's the main thing keeping Inqui from staying competitive in lategame.