Would You use the Thief Acrobat Tree if it was modified for light weapons too?

[Saekee]

Imagine the Thief acrobat tree but everywhere that is written "Quarterstaff," put in "Light Weapon." This would more or less be a kukri tree.

A few minor swaps that would be multi-selectors:

• Tier 1: Attack speed boost is for Qstaff; for light weapons, mimic Vistani's Rapid attack for 20% Doublestrike
• Tier 3: Improved Second strikes: Multi selector Strikethrough (Qstaff) or doublestrike +3/6/10% (light weapons)
• Tier 5: Multi-selector: Spinning staff wall (with Qstaff) or Elaborate Parry (as per Tempest Tier 4) with light weapons
• Tier 5: Multi-selector: Vault (Staff) or Dive Roll (light weapons)
• Capstone: Followthrough: After tumbling with light weapons, gain +20% offhand strike and doublestrike for 12 seconds; instead of vorpal, your weapons gain Improved Deception. passive, +15 MP, +5% attack speed.

Why do this?

1. Should be easy to make this modification. Really easy so no big dev time sink.
2. Interesting builds for light weapons--a fast-attacking melee that can go up the assassin tree too for Lethality OR a ninja/tempest splash with short swords/kukris. You get improved defensive roll, lots of sneak damage.
3. The faster attack speed is part of Vistani so here we are doing it too but not giving the attack speed boost that the qstaff gets to the light weapon variant. While I think having a speed boost for kukris and other light weapons would be great, it would be overly used as BiS for all light weapon users and folks would feel it necessary to splash rogue just for it.
4. You can play a melee rogue without sneaking since the devs seem to want this anyway
5. This is not too powerful as a tempest gets similar buffs but also full offhand, thousand cuts and so forth; it simply allows playing the rogue class like a street thug that is not a vistani.
6. You can use the TA tree and dump STR as a stat since you do not need to do THF
7. It would be new player friendly

Build Possibilities

1. The return of the kukri for its superior crit profile in this setup; with Lethality you can have a great light weapon fighter without daggers. This is not power creep as one can get the same crit profile from named daggers like Nightforged
2. Fun splashes for ninjas in which the short swords can get vistani-like buffs, great trapping and skills.
3. Some unusual builds in which handaxes are used, perhaps, and some kind of Swashbuckling combination that I have not thought of yet.

[Tilomere]

A few minor swaps that would be multi-selectors:

• Tier 1: Attack speed boost is for Qstaff; for light weapons, mimic Vistani's Rapid attack for 20% Doublestrike
  QStaff innate lower attack speed relative to other THF weapons and THFx3 feats to use them were intentionally added to DDO that do not exist in D&D to prevent casters from being able to hybrid and force more specialized varied builds. This attack speed penalty does not apply to other weapons, so the attack speed boost applied to QStaff to counter it also should not apply to other weapons as well. Doublestrike counters poor crit profile, which do not exist in all other light weapons, so should not apply to other weapons as well.
• Tier 3: Improved Second strikes: Multi selector Strikethrough (Qstaff) or doublestrike +3/6/10% (light weapons)
  No, acrobat is already a substantially very good melee support tree for non-staff builds.
• Tier 5: Multi-selector: Spinning staff wall (with Qstaff) or Elaborate Parry (as per Tempest Tier 4) with light weapons
  Sure to staff wall, I mean, if you want to waste toolbar space on a weak ability that averages 11 PRR if you both hotbar and hit it on cooldown, have at it. My experience is that the wasted GCD when you could be doing something else means you end up overall taking more damage than if you don't hotbar or use it. Lolz no on another meld.
• Tier 5: Multi-selector: Vault (Staff) or Dive Roll (light weapons)
  No, definitely not. Lore. Plus it encourages not taking WWA line on a SWF/TWF build, which means no/low AoE dps and a dysfunctional noob trap leveling build. So double no.
• Capstone: Followthrough: After tumbling with light weapons, gain +20% offhand strike and doublestrike for 12 seconds; instead of vorpal, your weapons gain Improved Deception. passive, +15 MP, +5% attack speed.
  Staff attack speed is per above comments. No to improved deception that is an assassin sneaky thing for assassin tree per lore.

Why do this?

1. Should be easy to make this modification. Really easy so no big dev time sink.
2. Interesting builds for light weapons--a fast-attacking melee that can go up the assassin tree too for Lethality OR a ninja/tempest splash with short swords/kukris. You get improved defensive roll, lots of sneak damage.
   with 41 AP assassin, 26 defensive roll + no mercy, and 13 trance you can already do this
3. The faster attack speed is part of Vistani so here we are doing it too but not giving the attack speed boost that the qstaff gets to the light weapon variant. While I think having a speed boost for kukris and other light weapons would be great, it would be overly used as BiS for all light weapon users and folks would feel it necessary to splash rogue just for it.
   In VKF it is a capstone ability costing 41 AP in a dagger tree, which is irrelevant to most dps builds. So you pay 41 AP for basically only 5% attack speed in VKF. Here you want other abilities as well, so no
4. You can play a melee rogue without sneaking since the devs seem to want this anyway
   been there, done that, caused SSG to consider dodge nerfs, then nerf OV, you can still do it with dino dust main and offhand orb dino vacuum, I just don't care to anymore because of nerfed OV healing for R6 soloing
5. This is not too powerful as a tempest gets similar buffs but also full offhand, thousand cuts and so forth; it simply allows playing the rogue class like a street thug that is not a vistani.
   SSG will nerf this out of existence regardless of balance, because it homogenizes classes. Barbarian already exists for this role. You can also already do this and tank R10 dungeons on a pure 20 rogue assassin (I've done it), at least until SSG figures out how to nerf it out of existence with a dodge nerf that doesn't break game.
6. You can use the TA tree and dump STR as a stat since you do not need to do THF
   You can already do this as the value of an elf, a tabaxi, or splashing ranger or bard
7. It would be new player friendly
   Be a new player melee that can't self-heal in reaper PUGS? Lolz. Warlock forum is >>>> that way.

Build Possibilities

1. The return of the kukri for its superior crit profile in this setup; with Lethality you can have a great light weapon fighter without daggers. This is not power creep as one can get the same crit profile from named daggers like Nightforged
   You can already use Labyrinthine main hand, with dino dust orb or weapon offhand for dust + vacuum + salt
2. Fun splashes for ninjas in which the short swords can get vistani-like buffs, great trapping and skills.
   Sweeping strikes allowing any light weapon would distort builds.]
3. Some unusual builds in which handaxes are used, perhaps, and some kind of Swashbuckling combination that I have not thought of yet.
   can already do this 10 rogue (def roll) 4 bard swash 6 barb crit mult dino main hand, dino vacuum buckler off hand, I can undelete the flowers variant of this if you want. My dripping with magma feywild setup was nerfed, but you can use dino now. I just think it is a poor choice because SSG has shown repeatedly they want to nerf dodge light tanking of such builds (OS became medium armor for % hp, FB started at 15% hp and only went to 25% after protests, attempted dodge nerf) and they will find a way to do it eventually so the build is a ticking time bomb.

heyo! In red!

[Saekee]

heyo! In red!

Hey Tilo, thanks for all those thoughtful comments! I can see your experience in high reaper at cap whereas I was looking at a mostly heroic build option. That is a great perspective.

[VinoeWhines]

heyo! In red!


You can also already do this and tank R10 dungeons on a pure 20 rogue assassin (I've done it),

Was this the flower build you brought down, because it can't be done anymore?
If not are you going for PRR/MRR or Dodge?

[KoobTheProud]

Don't change Thief-Acrobat. It's very good at supporting Staff melee play.

[Tilomere]

Was this the flower build you brought down, because it can't be done anymore?

I brought it down because it can't smoothly solo R6 without OV spell crit improving healing and due to nerf to dripping with magma on my gear set and because SSG is looking to nerf such builds so it is a trap to spend time and resources to build out, among other reasons. Not just any one reason, and not because of R10 performance.

[KoobTheProud]

I brought it down because it can't smoothly solo R6 without OV spell crit improving healing and due to nerf to dripping with magma on my gear set and because SSG is looking to nerf such builds so it is a trap to spend time and resources to build out, among other reasons. Not just any one reason, and not because of R10 performance.

If you come up with something new and very good just don't post it. Play it and enjoy.

SSG has a small staff with virtually no dedicated QC/QA. This is likely because the people who would be doing QC/QA in the normal course of events get pulled off to do other things that actually produce revenue.

This means that they're unlikely to catch the breaks in the system (not exploits, unintended power because maff) unless somebody reports them.

There are two primary ways to report them. First you can do a cool post about your new build and the wrong pair of eyes see it. Second, you can do a lot of grouping with different people and somebody else does a cool post about your new build and the wrong pair of eyes see it.

Loose lips sink builds.

[VinoeWhines]

If you come up with something new and very good just don't post it. Play it and enjoy.

SSG has a small staff with virtually no dedicated QC/QA. This is likely because the people who would be doing QC/QA in the normal course of events get pulled off to do other things that actually produce revenue.

This means that they're unlikely to catch the breaks in the system (not exploits, unintended power because maff) unless somebody reports them.

There are two primary ways to report them. First you can do a cool post about your new build and the wrong pair of eyes see it. Second, you can do a lot of grouping with different people and somebody else does a cool post about your new build and the wrong pair of eyes see it.

Loose lips sink builds.

This does seems like it is very common, but it seems only to be geared to non AOE nuker-caster builds.
When 2 AOE nukers(Alchemist/Sorc) do a 2 man R10 challenge to see who wins at the end in kill counts on Youtube even and nothing really substantial changes...ya.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpw_..._channel=JKDDO





Then the fact that melee/stealth dps builds get nerfed(especially my build pre Update51 - Shadow Dancer: Use the power of shadows and deadly illusion magic to terrify and consume enemies = False no such thing.)

[Tilomere]

The games balance isn't performance, it is economics, because corporations are hungry beasts eating capital.

Cleric/Rogue or other non-arcane stacking helpless damage and AoE 1 shotting mobs with double hit point blank hellball displaces arcanes > nerf Hellball
Level 20 walking straight into Legendary reaper and soloing it skipping buying XP aides > nerf remove EDs from level 20s.
Fat Agile Barbarian and Fi****l of Flowers Rogue tanking displacing traditional plate/shield 0 DPS tanks > OS/Dodge/OV nerfs.
Sorc tanking displacing traditional plate/shield 0 DPS tanks > % HP EDF/% HP LGS Opp/Meteor nerfs.
Archmage shiradi dps builds serving as strong iconic AoE dps platform for leveling > Shiradi nerfs so no iconic is a strong leveler to preserve ability to sell xp.
Sorc only free class left to make an iconic out of > give monk away free, then make monk iconic.
EDF allowing dps and healer caster tanks displacing traditional plate/shield 0 DPS tanks > remove EDF from game.
1-30 reaper clonklock/supreme cleavage Tree builds displace everyone and all xp items for solo faceroll reaper 1-30 > remove trees from game, nerf ES
PO artificer assassin designed to assassinate entire R10 packs including reapers and DW champs at once and eliminate need for melee xp items due to heroic scaling> displaces sorcs and alcs > remove OV from game
Iconic workaround to be able to pick alternate classes > remove need for +1 heart on a diff class > immediate removal from game of workaround.
Basic melee cleric Soundburst + Wiz EK zombie + eldritch tempest heroic AoE 1 shot mobs removes removes need for melee heroic xp items > nerf to helpless, +4 mob saves in reaper + nerf to tempest + nerf to zombie
Stout of Battle/Animal domain preventing HC sales due to survival of same > nerf

Sorc/Alcs blowing things up? That's what they are designed to do and their selling point. That's not nerf-worthy. You have to prove it is derailing the train.

Maybe this helps:



Which brings us full circle to one of the reasons I brought down Fi****l of Flowers. I can show you exactly how to play a rogue as a barbarian or paladin, but the more it is adopted, the faster and harder the nerfs will be for the entire class.

If you want a sorc nerf, you have show how to displace another archtype and source of food, while simultaneously still fulfilling sorc duties.

[KoobTheProud]

Sorc/Alcs blowing things up? That's what they are designed to do and their selling point. That's not nerf-worthy. You have to prove it is derailing the train.

If you want a sorc nerf, you have show how to displace another archtype and source of food, while simultaneously still fulfilling sorc duties.

However if a HC season was being dominated by lots of Sorcs/Alcs the way HC6 was dominated by FvS you would probably see nerfs to both classes. Sorc less likely because people don't understand how to defend as a Sorc but Alc purely because it is a different animal and most people don't play Alc because it requires a learning curve.

The point I was making was that there is no way SSG catches the OP builds, even the revenue disruptive ones, in a vacuum. They are largely dependent on the player base and the various forums and possibly YouTube to catch those breaks.

This aside from the purely OP stuff that they intentionally sell knowing it is OP when it arrives in game. Alc will get nerfed when SSG wants to displace it with something else. This assuming people start playing it.

[VinoeWhines]

The games balance isn't performance, it is economics, because corporations are hungry beasts eating capital.

Fat Agile Barbarian and Fi****l of Flowers Rogue tanking displacing traditional plate/shield 0 DPS tanks > OS/Dodge/OV nerfs.

PO artificer assassin designed to assassinate entire R10 packs including reapers and DW champs at once and eliminate need for melee xp items due to heroic scaling> displaces sorcs and alcs > remove OV from game

Sorc/Alcs blowing things up? That's what they are designed to do and their selling point. That's not nerf-worthy. You have to prove it is derailing the train.


If you want a sorc nerf, you have show how to displace another archtype and source of food, while simultaneously still fulfilling sorc duties.

What is: OS,OV
PO artificier?

[Tilomere]

What is: OS,OV
PO artificier?

It was where you used to be able to take 12 artificer 5 ranger 3x and quad aimed shot with a repeater for archers focus stacks activated deadly rain.

Then swap into SWF with main hand dust dagger, offhand vacuum runearm and SDK chain using ranged power daggers.

Then take the vorpal offhand versatility proc 100% spell crit and toss a fan of knives which scales off 200% ranged power, spell power, and spell crit.

I called the build Power Overwhelming, off of Starcraft. I had designed it as an assassin build for myself to wipe out entire R10 packs of mobs, including deathwarded mobs and reapers.

I wanted a melee build that had early (aimed shot repeater) access to power for leveling, and that had so much damage potential I could gimp it a whole bunch to add R6 solo self-healing and defenses in.


OS = Occult slayer, aka fat evasive barb nerf of no longer being eligible for evasion.

[VinoeWhines]

Thanks for the clarification.
Would of been nice to see a video of that in action.

What would you use to self heal then?

[Kutalp]

If Rogue trees were more similar to Vistani but also gave Int to hit and damage. Some extra trap/vs trap skills over existing Vistani, then yes. (Ps: All classes should give alternative stat to hit/damage)



Since my early days at DDO, Rogue and Wizard have been my most favored classes (Fighter only for the extra feats. Never enjoyed heavy armor. Dodge, Light armor restrictions after nerfs also hurts)...Anyhow Wizard without EK or Rogue without Universal Vistani is pretty much off. (Unless goes Inquis or Repeater with Ranger/Arti cookie cutter till eternity...Since 2015s ?...Rogue never gets a functional revamp, Arti/Ranger never gets exclusive bonuses; but allways dipped in to boring cookie cutter. I wish Devs changed this.



See Rogue trees are too much focused at a single weapon type and defenses arent fair enough when compared to Vistani.

For the Wizard also, same goes for Archmage and Eldricht Knight also requires lots of gear support but ,at least, more flexible then Palemaster. Eldricht Knight may be one of the better working free to play trees as well as Swashbuckler.


Whatever the build my personal choice also goes for a single level of Barb for the movement speed.


I believe all these may give a hint how could Rogue, Wizard (A Mage) and Fighter clases could have been revamped to perform much better.


Additionally rogue alchemical traps, assasin abilities, acrobat active aoes could be calculated over character level. No need to say Swashbuckler, Eldricht seem to be more succesfull at creating a generous and versatile overall character build template, even with heavy multiclass options. There is allways Ranger and Artificer for min-max crit junkies aswell. Now comparing rogue to these...


For instance Bard may be alot more versatile among all of those classes (sadly).



*Ps:

Intelligent. Human, Vistani, Harper, Mechanic, Assasin venoms, acrobat tumbler. Some versatile aoes included. Partially rolled over character at least, thanks to Vistani.



Once more, the real problem at hand about DDO is the character builds are too dependant on gear power. Also too much on Criticals (and now also Imbues) since most other sources are nerfed or has got noticable cooldowns. Gear shall be nerfed to the ground and class/tree/feat/skills should be put to power; turning critical and imbue builds only an optional choice aswell.



My humble pieces of eight.