VIP needs to be worth it.

[SilentRunning]

I spend enough on this game every month w/o being vip and get more for my money.

People are upset, I get that, it's not the end of the world.

The problem is that whatever SSG is planning to replace the daily gold roll with, somebody is not going to like even that.

So, they can't win for losing.

[Aelonwy]

I find VIP more than worth what I am getting for it and will continue to be a VIP.

Most basic way to explain it.
You already value VIP. --->That's good.
He doesn't. --->That's not so good.
SSG is already getting your money. --->That's good.
SSG will NOT be getting his money. --->If enough people feel his way, this will not work out so well for the company.
Your opinion of the value has zero impact on his estimation of the value. Only his estimation of the value affects incoming money to SSG since they are already getting yours.

If now, the argument from VIPs is that 10% xp and elite unlock have no value, can they be now sold in the DDO store? What would you want instead?

Who knows? But that's at the heart of the issue as to why many people no longer value VIP. They've had free codes catching people up on content twice(?), they've given away some races and classes that were previously premium, they've pushed to make a large scale content update each year for the last 3 or 4 years that is NOT included in VIP so VIP ALL content access has little to no meaning anymore. Movement speed trumped by mounts. Elite unlock matters the most on HC because regular servers have enough TRs that can open elite for any PuG VIP or no. The points have value... but in a game that pushes you through the content over and over and over... well points add up just because of the entire TR mechanic which is THE QUINTESSENTIAL mechanic of the game. None of these decisions are inherently bad as they get new and returning players involved and semi-caught up with long time players via content but it has over time devalued and eroded the very definition of VIP.

So what does VIP have really that can truly in almost any situation be considered a PERK? Saga Skip, 10% extra XP, weekly gold rolls?

I own everything but isle of Dread, and I subbed for 3 months during HC 6 for elite opening. Daily Gold Dice was really neat. I cannot explain it but I rolled better on Gold than I have EVER rolled on silver. I typically roll a 100 on silver 2 maybe 3 times a year. I came away from those 3 months with 3 gold 100s on HC and 2 on Thelanis, and at least 1 more on EVERY other server. I cannot explain that, but I have proof in the tomes/hearts/horses/cosmetics on the characters that I may someday transfer to my main server. If my experience was even halfway typical I can fully understand why some people might feel the loss of daily gold.

IF daily Gold Rolls is completely off the table then to make VIP seem more worthwhile to people in general, I would suggest:

• Upping VIP XP to 15%
• Add Once a day free VIP chest reroll, NOT once to every chest... just ONCE a day
• Add VIP in-game store discount, 10% ALL the time, EVERYTHING, but not additive to other sales. So if something goes on sale for 25% off VIP doesn't get 35% off. Might make some people more loose with their points and actually need to buy points occasionally. Won't make a difference for most things where even VIP would wait for big sales.
• Regenerating sp/hp faster in public areas.
• Either a VIP Bigby's Guide FEAT that lets a VIP put down a single guiding hand of any color (put another down the first disappears) or a VIP Guild Beacon FEAT which allows VIP to get to their Airship more conveniently. The first shouldn't interfere with sales as I do NOT know a single person that buys them from the store, the second option might interfere with sales but it has VIP convenience written all over it. Feat gets removed automatically when no longer VIP, kind of like a favor feat but the faction is VIP.

Idk if it would be enough but it might be enticing.

[scut207]

As a long time Premium/Second class DDO citizen, this was exactly my argument a very long time ago.

I want(ed) to spend money on my premium account for VIP benefits (namely the permanent 10% xp and Elite unlock), but all the VIP players said that those were the entire reason they were VIP, and selling them to premium accounts would be unacceptable.

If now, the argument from VIPs is that 10% xp and elite unlock have no value, can they be now sold in the DDO store? What would you want instead?

There's a lot of things they could do:

• VIP who has been active without breaks for 2+ years you get permanent access to all quest packs
• ITR/HTR/RTR to level 4 or Gold rolls at an increased frequency (2-4 days)
• 20 additional shared bank slots while VIP is active
• extra 20 char bank
• +10% movement speed while VIP is active
• VIP guild beacon on a 20s cooldown
• VIP augment tool kit

[ahpook]

There's a lot of things they could do:

• VIP who has been active without breaks for 2+ years you get permanent access to all quest packs
• ITR/HTR/RTR to level 4 or Gold rolls at an increased frequency (2-4 days)
• 20 additional shared bank slots while VIP is active
• extra 20 char bank
• +10% movement speed while VIP is active
• VIP guild beacon on a 20s cooldown
• VIP augment tool kit

2% reduction on expansion costs for each month subbed up to max of 20 months. Change "2" and "20" as appropriate.

[Enoach]

I find in these types of discussions that they are more positive and likely to garner a better outcome if the focus is less on the debate of "Worth it/Not Worth it" and more on throwing out ideas on what would make you want to subscribe for VIP access.

The Daily Gold Rolls were nice but if I recall we were all told this was only until the end of the 2022 year. No one should be surprised this perk has ended. However, if that is the reason why you subscribed for VIP access then by all means mention that.

List what you would like to see with VIP access.

I'll go.

Able to get more challenge tokens per day that are bound to account
Once a month be able to do one Guest Pass for free (This could turn VIP into ambassadors for paid content)
Access to more storage

[RTN]

I find in these types of discussions that they are more positive and likely to garner a better outcome if the focus is less on the debate of "Worth it/Not Worth it" and more on throwing out ideas on what would make you want to subscribe for VIP access.

Tolero even encouraged this in Feb 2022 and there have been a bunch of threads doing exactly this. Unfortunately, this appears to have accomplished absolutely nothing. So at this point, pressuring them into fulfilling their promises is more important. Productive player discussions are pointless when the producers ignore them and won't implement anything.

[wolfy42]

I have been a continual VIP member since February 2006. I find the VIP model (even without daily Gold Rolls) very valuable. I renew annually which puts my monthly cost at approximately $8.25. Can I just say what a bargain for my entertainment dollars. VIP gives you to name a few:

• Weekly Gold rolls
• Expanded banking
• Direct access to open quests in Elite or Reaper mode
• Free access to all Adventure Packs to DDO
• Free monthly distributions of DDO points
• Additional 10% XP bonus for quest completions
• And many more...

I really don't get the OPs complaints other than a person that just wants everything for free.

I think I remember you from the old days on Kyber (I switched to Gal along time ago).

Main problem with your list is almost everything on it you can buy, for points, and pretty much get for the cost of 1 year sub.

Gold rolls really don't matter (I wouldn't miss them at all weekly, and didn't even care about them daily)
Expanded banking/character slots are cheaper to buy in the store once, then to keep paying for every month, especially if you are a long term player. I have paid for hundreds of months of VIP, which is many times the cost of purchasing everything you get from it (content wise) from the store (outside of the fact I bought all that content as well along the way anyway).

The 500 DDO points a month is something, but it isn't enough, it should (in my opinion) offer a better ratio of money to DDO points by itself than you would get normally buying them from the store. Any other bonuses would just be icing (those bonuses currently just primarily being 10% exp and starting quests on elite/reaper if playing HC).

Honestly I think VIP should be completely redone at this point, most of the player base is extremely long term, very few new players are showing up, and the VIP model is geared towards new players getting to try the game out, not long term players who have accumulated enough points just from the VIP bonus to purchase everything if they wanted already.

There are a ton of useful things you could add for VIP players, that would actually make more people sub, gold rolls certainly were not why, I literally sub VIP out of loyalty, but I would like to actually get something useful (this is the first time I have played HC and gotten that benefit, otherwise I don't have a need for bonus character slots (I have 14 without the VIP bonus, so I don't even fill all of them with mules anymore). Extra bank slot is kinda nice, but yeah, I could just spend the money I do on VIP to get a bunch more slots and have em forever.

QoL bonuses that make some things easier for long term players (Shared Past lives on server was recently suggested which would be really nice), could ensure many people who don't sub right now, start subbing again. People who don't even buy DDO points might start supporting the game again etc. VIP has a ton of potential both to make money, and to make some frustrating parts of the game....easier.

[lbroyles]

I enjoyed the Daily Gold Roll. It kept me logging in everyday to do it. When I logged in I told myself, "I'm on, I should run something." I logged everyday and created a lfm or joined a lfm.
I also spent more money everyday from just messing around or buying a heart, maybe a xp pot. You can't make money if your players are not logging in.
Another reason I liked the Gold roll was I was able to save up the xp stones. After each TR I used them at level 1 to skip levels. This wouldn't get me far sometimes to level 4. This should be a VIP benefit skip the dreaded Korthos/ BL levels.

[wolfy42]

I enjoyed the Daily Gold Roll. It kept me logging in everyday to do it. When I logged in I told myself, "I'm on, I should run something." I logged everyday and created a lfm or joined a lfm.
I also spent more money everyday from just messing around or buying a heart, maybe a xp pot. You can't make money if your players are not logging in.
Another reason I liked the Gold roll was I was able to save up the xp stones. After each TR I used them at level 1 to skip levels. This wouldn't get me far sometimes to level 4. This should be a VIP benefit skip the dreaded Korthos/ BL levels.

Could just make a benifit of VIP be you can use vet status for reincarnations (Starting at 4/7 (probably 7 for everyone now) instead of 1.

Only minor problem is that makes iconics less special starting at 15...but shrug, 1-7 is pretty freaking fast even after reincarnation, it would just be another QoL for long term players I think.

[Oxarhamar]

Most basic way to explain it.
You already value VIP. --->That's good.
He doesn't. --->That's not so good.
SSG is already getting your money. --->That's good.
SSG will NOT be getting his money. --->If enough people feel his way, this will not work out so well for the company.
Your opinion of the value has zero impact on his estimation of the value. Only his estimation of the value affects incoming money to SSG since they are already getting yours.



Who knows? But that's at the heart of the issue as to why many people no longer value VIP. They've had free codes catching people up on content twice(?), they've given away some races and classes that were previously premium, they've pushed to make a large scale content update each year for the last 3 or 4 years that is NOT included in VIP so VIP ALL content access has little to no meaning anymore. Movement speed trumped by mounts. Elite unlock matters the most on HC because regular servers have enough TRs that can open elite for any PuG VIP or no. The points have value... but in a game that pushes you through the content over and over and over... well points add up just because of the entire TR mechanic which is THE QUINTESSENTIAL mechanic of the game. None of these decisions are inherently bad as they get new and returning players involved and semi-caught up with long time players via content but it has over time devalued and eroded the very definition of VIP.

So what does VIP have really that can truly in almost any situation be considered a PERK? Saga Skip, 10% extra XP, weekly gold rolls?

I own everything but isle of Dread, and I subbed for 3 months during HC 6 for elite opening. Daily Gold Dice was really neat. I cannot explain it but I rolled better on Gold than I have EVER rolled on silver. I typically roll a 100 on silver 2 maybe 3 times a year. I came away from those 3 months with 3 gold 100s on HC and 2 on Thelanis, and at least 1 more on EVERY other server. I cannot explain that, but I have proof in the tomes/hearts/horses/cosmetics on the characters that I may someday transfer to my main server. If my experience was even halfway typical I can fully understand why some people might feel the loss of daily gold.

IF daily Gold Rolls is completely off the table then to make VIP seem more worthwhile to people in general, I would suggest:

• Upping VIP XP to 15%
• Add Once a day free VIP chest reroll, NOT once to every chest... just ONCE a day
• Add VIP in-game store discount, 10% ALL the time, EVERYTHING, but not additive to other sales. So if something goes on sale for 25% off VIP doesn't get 35% off. Might make some people more loose with their points and actually need to buy points occasionally. Won't make a difference for most things where even VIP would wait for big sales.
• Regenerating sp/hp faster in public areas.
• Either a VIP Bigby's Guide FEAT that lets a VIP put down a single guiding hand of any color (put another down the first disappears) or a VIP Guild Beacon FEAT which allows VIP to get to their Airship more conveniently. The first shouldn't interfere with sales as I do NOT know a single person that buys them from the store, the second option might interfere with sales but it has VIP convenience written all over it. Feat gets removed automatically when no longer VIP, kind of like a favor feat but the faction is VIP.

Idk if it would be enough but it might be enticing.

+1

[Oxarhamar]

Tolero even encouraged this in Feb 2022 and there have been a bunch of threads doing exactly this. Unfortunately, this appears to have accomplished absolutely nothing. So at this point, pressuring them into fulfilling their promises is more important. Productive player discussions are pointless when the producers ignore them and won't implement anything.

still waiting for the outcome of this

[thegreatcthulhu]

Tolero even encouraged this in Feb 2022 and there have been a bunch of threads doing exactly this. Unfortunately, this appears to have accomplished absolutely nothing. So at this point, pressuring them into fulfilling their promises is more important. Productive player discussions are pointless when the producers ignore them and won't implement anything.

That's assuming Tolero, Sev, Lynn and the rest are able to actually implement anything without having to first cut off a thousand bandages and then do grape surgery. This game is unfortunately saddled with unmistakable technical debt.

One of the things that has struck me as telling is the way Sev and Cord described the build system that the devs are currently using. This is based on what I heard from Sev and Cord on one of the more recent live streams. The impression I have is they are using a very old-fashioned development pipeline that is in dire need of modernization. They also are using some old-fashioned dot net web services / APIs that which still bear Turbine's name. The version of QT the game is using may also be old; QT is expensive, and I have seen shops stick to old versions of third-party software because of the time and money involved in upgrading being absurdly high. That's assuming QT is even a pain point for them; that's something that is an unknown. But hopefully you understand what I am getting at here.

Unfortunately, I have a feeling Sev and the rest of SSG doesn't have the cash or corporate flexibility to work with a consultant to investigate these matters. I am not saying I am the person for that job either, but it's one of those things where I am curious as to how such a consultant could help.

However, don't take my armchair dev comments here as doom and gloom. I personally think any problem is fixable. But right now, we're living in a world where the tech industry at large is feeling the burn of economic shockwaves (look at Amazon and FB as of today). I hope SSG can at least make it through these hard times. If they can, I think we will see things get better.

[Wizard1406]

That's assuming Tolero, Sev, Lynn and the rest are able to actually implement anything without having to first cut off a thousand bandages and then do grape surgery. This game is unfortunately saddled with unmistakable technical debt.

Isn't the best way to improve VIP a simple number tweak then?

I think the vast majority of people would appreciate more xp, so for example VIP 10->15% and VIP group bonus from 1% (way too low) to at least 3% (it's a MMO, encourage grouping :-) )

[salmag]

Isn't the best way to improve VIP a simple number tweak then?

I think the vast majority of people would appreciate more xp, so for example VIP 10->15% and VIP group bonus from 1% (way too low) to at least 3% (it's a MMO, encourage grouping :-) )

I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority, but I don't think more XP should be a VIP perk. There is more than enough XP in this game to level to 32 just by doing normal. Heck, you could just do Wilderness runs to get there.

Here's what I think for VIP.

- Keep the daily Gold Rolls. Sure it is a minimal thing; but as you can see by the outrage, it matters.
- Add a permanent store Discount (-15%). This doesn't count for specials.
- Up the monthly points from 500 to 1000 (or 1500).
- Discounts on future expansions (-15%). Nothing says VIP like saving money.
- I like Aelonwy's idea about the free chest reroll.

I would add housing to this list, because it not only adds more storage space, but it makes one feel special. I'm sure people will state that it shouldn't be a VIP only perk. To that I say, if you want a virtual house, pay a monthly sub for it.

ALL of these added would make me go back to VIP. Depending on which ones they add, I would have to weigh it out.

[Wizard1406]

I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority, but I don't think more XP should be a VIP perk. There is more than enough XP in this game to level to 32 just by doing normal. Heck, you could just do Wilderness runs to get there.

Here's what I think for VIP.

- Keep the daily Gold Rolls. Sure it is a minimal thing; but as you can see by the outrage, it matters.
- Add a permanent store Discount (-15%). This doesn't count for specials.
- Up the monthly points from 500 to 1000 (or 1500).
- Discounts on future expansions (-15%). Nothing says VIP like saving money.
- I like Aelonwy's idea about the free chest reroll.

I would add housing to this list, because it not only adds more storage space, but it makes one feel special. I'm sure people will state that it shouldn't be a VIP only perk. To that I say, if you want a virtual house, pay a monthly sub for it.

Yep not every single person cares about xp / rxp.

Your ideas are good too and don't require much dev work, except for housing (just put gold rolls back, some number tweaking and some coding to make first chest reroll per day free). Housing would be a lot of work but great for the players. The inventory nightmare should be fixed and housing with closets and chests etc. could be a good solution.

[Edyil]

A couple issues with this thread -

SSG greatly under values VIP and, at least someone there, greatly over values Microtransations.

Players, in general, somewhat over value VIP and somewhat undervalue Microtransations.

This is normal.

The real problem is that SSG is trying to thread the needle by keeping VIPs at little to no cost to them AND get those same people to spend on MTs. This is a no win for the player. Another problem SSG is facing - Someone there way, way over estimate the value of MTs with this current DDO model. They look at games like Diablo, Path of Exile, Warframe and countless others and say "See!! See!! All the money is in MTs!!!" Um yes BUT those games basically release an entirely new game every single year. They do not try to keep the base game and sell an expansion all the while charging for MTs. Also, SSG is (in general I know there are big exceptions) comparing a moderately successful model (MTs) and a VIP model (sub based) and think they are comparable. No they are not. Ask Blizzard if those models are the same and can be co-mingled. Most games that force players into MTs don't have a Sub base. Most games with a Sub base have cosmetics as the only MTs worth getting. They don't mix the two. The reason I quit DDO many years ago is because I was forced into an MT model and by xpacs and pay for VIP.

Now adays I don't mind an MT model as much but why would I do both? That is the golden (roll) question. Well.. I wouldn't. But listen, SSG. If you go the total MT route, which it appears you are, then you MUST create a new game - FREE - each year. That is the only working model.

[MarauderX]

I enjoyed the Daily Gold Roll. It kept me logging in everyday to do it. When I logged in I told myself, "I'm on, I should run something." I logged everyday and created a lfm or joined a lfm.
I also spent more money everyday from just messing around or buying a heart, maybe a xp pot. You can't make money if your players are not logging in.
Another reason I liked the Gold roll was I was able to save up the xp stones. After each TR I used them at level 1 to skip levels. This wouldn't get me far sometimes to level 4. This should be a VIP benefit skip the dreaded Korthos/ BL levels.

As a VIP from the early days, I have characters on every server, and constantly over 30k points. When daily gold rolls started I aimed to log in daily to collect a bit of extras and level up PCs across all of the servers throughout the year. I have sporadic availability and each time I too would look for an lfm (even on Wayfinder) or just run something fast to make progress and have fun with different classes/levels any given day. The gold rolls will be missed, and I do hope that there is a similar XP/loot boost upcoming... though they probably know I won't drop being VIP over the extras the rolls gave.
Thanks all!

[Merrillman]

If you're killing the gold rolls at least replace the value. Do something. I literally just bought 12 months but it's more out of habit than support. I'm really REALLY happy that DDO has such a friendly F2P model but for those of us that are actually paying up: I want to see some honey on my fingers. Just being honest.

idea: Let VIP's bank (BTA, not BTC) saga XP rewards. They're useless at cap otherwise and if I could do so id actually play my alts more. Near impossible to build an alt to be a second main without crazy time invested and i just dont want to spend 8 years building a second in the same manner as I built a first character.

[vardyll_wemrik]

If you're killing the gold rolls at least replace the value. Do something. I literally just bought 12 months but it's more out of habit than support. I'm really REALLY happy that DDO has such a friendly F2P model but for those of us that are actually paying up: I want to see some honey on my fingers. Just being honest.

Yea this is beyond sad of DDO to take this route for its VIP community! As my title states, I'll not be spending anything further on the game untill they take a serious look at making it worthwhile to pay for VIP!

[thegreatcthulhu]

Isn't the best way to improve VIP a simple number tweak then?

I think the vast majority of people would appreciate more xp, so for example VIP 10->15% and VIP group bonus from 1% (way too low) to at least 3% (it's a MMO, encourage grouping :-) )

You are right and I agree that would be a simple and easy solution. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me, by the way.

Thinking on it more, there's probably another elephant in the room we have to consider BESIDES the technical debt blockers - office politics, corporate policy, revenue levels, etc.

To elaborate - I think it makes sense that a number tweak somewhere would be a good incentive and compromise on what to give subscribers. However, the question then becomes what hurdles in the office(s) does Sev/Tol/etc need to clear to make that happen? Unfortunately, it's anyone's guess here, without comment from Cord/Sev/etc. Also, I think you can agree they have been historically close guarded about what goes on in Boston (and now elsewhere) when it comes to internal discussions. I have observed this has always been the situation with them going back to the Turbine days. That is UNDERSTANDABLE too when you consider that a lot of companies don't like to share anything until there's a very definitive announcement to make. Microsoft obviously loves pulling that game (for example, see how long it took them to admit Windows 11 was a thing).

That being said, I think a lot of this stems back to the whole concern they may have about "sustainable" player population. It wouldn't surprise me that if someone in the company wants to give subscribers a 2023 incentive, but there's a lot of digging into the weeds about what will cause people to "burn through the game" too fast and leaving faster versus what will keep them subscribed longer (as well as buying more DDO points). They have the numbers and historical data to go through, so I suspect that they are still weighing the trade-offs with making any changes for VIP benefits.

And AGAIN, we can't ignore the economic situation that the entire tech industry (and the US at large) is facing right now. Money is tighter everywhere. So, my expectation is that SSG is probably going to be more cautious and conservative with what they "give away" until we see signs that the economy itself is out of its current rut.