Mechanic Alchemical Traps

[WeiQuinn]

Reviewing the Mechanic Enhancements and was wondering if the Alchemical Traps are worth the AP investment? Rogue doesn't really have any crowd control and thought they might be worth trying... so, does anyone have experience with them (or Trapbuilding in general) that can enlighten me? I usually just splash Rogue into my Rangers, but eventually I want to run a pure Rogue Mechanic with Great Crossbows.

Thank you in advance!

[C-Dog]

Reviewing the Mechanic Enhancements and was wondering if the Alchemical Traps are worth the AP investment?

Most players ignore it. The AoE can be buggy on anything but flat terrain, the DC's are a pain to maintain, and they're slow to set up.

CC is achieved with things like this: https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Serrated_Arrowhead

[Valerianus]

traps can be really good, but they have issues and they are very situational.

first off, that mech enhancement, improved traps 3\3 is a must if you want to use traps. it makes the trap dc scale to full disable device. please note, technically this should be true only for those useless elemental mines, instead it is bugged since forever, also magical traps scale to it but they should not. this bug is the only thing that keeps the magical traps relevant, with relevant i mean not totally useless and barely situationally useful cause having the dc scale with disable, it makes it potentially viable. it's all about viability. because the only traps that can be useful, stress on can be, are web and glitterdust. and noisemaker. forget mines, forget granades, sadly, only web\glitterdust\noisemaker. it also means you have to gear disable all the time or swap everytime you set a trap....clunky.


second, you need time to arm them but not that much, they can be used to full potential if solo, coupled with sneak\noisemaker, or in party if you already know where the mobs will spawn, or if you let a sorta tank grab aggro and then jump in the fray, where it will be inevitably triggered, to arm a trap in there, but this is lotta weird cause there will be a caster to apply cc usually, your trap will come too slow too late anyway to be relevant.


back to web and glitterdust. web pin down mobs, glitterdust blind em, so why not both, blind status also means your sneak attacks will proc even if you have aggro. nothing to scoff at for a pure or almost pure rogue if solo. i say almost pure cause maybe you may consider rog mech 18 arti 2. i say solo cause if grouped you follow the rogue golden rule: never have aggro.

i mean, you are soloing, you already know that around the corner in that quest there's a pack of mobs. you sneak to the corner, set a glitterdust, shot to pull (or noisemaker), run around the corner, they follow triggering a glitterdust, maybe a web too, all blind and vulnerable to sneak attacks, and you are in safe position and switched to ips already waiting for em...they are so much dead. also true if you are a melee assassin. blind will boost your defense too if going melee. obviously this scenario is unreal if playing in a party. or maybe you are surrounded, you drop a web or glitterdust and kite the mobs thru it. well, that means you are playing in a diff when your char, solo or grouped, can actually survive a few hits, very situational.

another note, what the devs never understood, not because they are stupid, they are not, quite the opposite, just because they not even tried, just because it's faster and easier to develop for trinity approach, and fast and easy means meet the company targets on time, remember that stealth is officially by dev statement an unsupported playstyle, is that all of this is by far far far far slower than just aoe nuke the entire site from orbit. that's why most players have the feeling that casters are op. that's not true, it's just the meta cause lifelocked doors and quests set up like hallway\10 mobs\lifelockeddoor\hallway\10mobs\lifelockeddoor\ and so on so obviously nukers are perceived as op. nope, it's just the meta cause how the quests are developed. no, not criticizing the devs. i understand that the easiest way is to develop as a "standard" mmo. and ddo is not a standard mmo, it's grounded on single player principles actually, it's not even a mmo from some points of view, and that's why we like it so much. it's a miracle we still have instakills, guess just because the uproar would be, and it would definitely be, massive. and that's why stealth and any approach different from "kill all that is moving as fast as possible till the last man" is a technically bad approach to the game.


to end this rant, build your mech, or assassin with traps whatever, make it sneaky too. you will have fun. after a while you'll respec it in some inquisitive dps cause frustration but who cares, you have explored an unsupported playstyle and had fun, you'll also learn a lot about the game, about detection\aggro and you too will ask yourself too why hiding in plain sight is a ranger and not a rogue class feature, why inquisitive got infinite ammo and not rogue, why inqui got auto trap spot and not rogue...why falconer has ranged assassinate and rogue not...and so on....and you will be the next to write such a rant next time someone ask the self same question as you now hehehhehehe devs hate rogue, it's a pain to develop for stealthy stuff, always had been, we understand that. we don't like it, but we understand...out of sad realism and state of the game. dropping my stealth rogue to a state of bank toon made me save so much money and time (like my barbarian ravager, ravager tree is obscenely bugged since forever, but this is not relevant to this thread).


the only supported rogue is pure dps\ debuffer

[Xgya]

Reviewing the Mechanic Enhancements and was wondering if the Alchemical Traps are worth the AP investment? Rogue doesn't really have any crowd control and thought they might be worth trying... so, does anyone have experience with them (or Trapbuilding in general) that can enlighten me? I usually just splash Rogue into my Rangers, but eventually I want to run a pure Rogue Mechanic with Great Crossbows.

Thank you in advance!

Worth using early on to give your Rogues some much-needed AoE damage. At lower levels, the damage is very decent.
They're never worth it for the crowd control part, most of them have their own bugs that make them scale poorly or have hitbox issues.

[VinoeWhines]

Reviewing the Mechanic Enhancements and was wondering if the Alchemical Traps are worth the AP investment? Rogue doesn't really have any crowd control and thought they might be worth trying... so, does anyone have experience with them (or Trapbuilding in general) that can enlighten me? I usually just splash Rogue into my Rangers, but eventually I want to run a pure Rogue Mechanic with Great Crossbows.

Thank you in advance!

If your going Mech Rogue, yes it's worth it. Since you will be Intelligence based and most likely have Improved Precise Shot on as well.
Traps are viable for an Intelligence based Rogue since your Disable Device should be hitting upper 120's in DC.
Web traps unfortunately don't really work in R10's maybe R6?(Epic Elite, they were great). But the ones that do work(R10) are Hypnotic Pattern(Best to get AOE mobs), Glitterdust(works well), Hypnotism(a little short and if you hit them they become active), Otto's Dance(works but way too short duration.1-2 seconds)

Here's the thing(and thanks to further investigation with the Legendary Nokowi) is that you have to place two at a time, one to trigger and second to get them to run to if the first trap disappears, when the second one goes off, place another one after a few swings, while the second one is still in effect, that way though it takes some time from DPS it almost guarantees your survivability and keeps you in control of fight.
It takes practice, I'd suggest start in Legendary Hard, get the mechanics down right, then bump to Epic Elite and when you fully understand the strategy and tactics, bump it up to Reapers, that way you'd have the foundation down and just need to concentrate on execution and quickness.
This is especially true if your running with underpowered players, you will help CC the mobs so they can engage in the fight(Hypnotic Patter traps). They need to fix the Magical Traps though, they should be lasting as long as Casters' Mass Hold(looking at Web traps) with similar DC's(120's+)

The thing that sucks also is that Shadow Dancer should of had in that Tree an ability to Improve Trap making and it doesn't, the purported Wand and Scroll Mastery was promised to stack with Heroic Enhancement and it doesn't, they didn't even test it to see if it did.
Pump and Dump Coding. (Popeye laugh: AH GYAK GYAK GYAK GYAK)

[Xgya]

If your going Mech Rogue, yes it's worth it. Since you will be Intelligence based and most likely have Improved Precise Shot on as well.
Traps are viable for an Intelligence based Rogue since your Disable Device should be hitting upper 120's in DC.
Web traps unfortunately don't really work in R10's maybe R6?(Epic Elite, they were great). But the ones that do work(R10) are Hypnotic Pattern(Best to get AOE mobs), Glitterdust(works well), Hypnotism(a little short and if you hit them they become active), Otto's Dance(works but way too short duration.1-2 seconds)

Most people here seem to have misunderstood the question.
They're asking about ALCHEMICAL traps (Tanglefoot, Thunderstone...).

[VinoeWhines]

Most people here seem to have misunderstood the question.
They're asking about ALCHEMICAL traps (Tanglefoot, Thunderstone...).

hmm?

Reviewing the Mechanic Enhancements and was wondering if the Alchemical Traps are worth the AP investment? Rogue doesn't really have any crowd control and thought they might be worth trying... so, does anyone have experience with them (or Trapbuilding in general) that can enlighten me? I usually just splash Rogue into my Rangers, but eventually I want to run a pure Rogue Mechanic with Great Crossbows.

Thank you in advance!

Like was mentioned before, it is nuanced and can be very fun/strategically rewarding when you can pull it out of your skillset, it is another layer of abilities that if practiced can come in handy, but just like bringing a hireling in a high level quest, you have to reign it in with a group, or can backfire.(mostly Hypnotic Pattern, but it does stop them in their tracks, if you can get the DC's up.)
It can save your group if you practice placing them strategically, it takes some practice, but if you can hone the skill, you can be looked at, as Top G homie.

In regards to Aullchuumicull.... Spell Critical seems to boost them....

[archest]

Tanglefoot: Cooldown: 30 seconds. Spell Resistance: No
Alchemical Trap Activate: Throws a flask of caustic liquid at your enemy, which explodes into a sticky mess. Enemies caught within by the goo puddle take: 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds, Reflex DC (10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier) halves, and are slowed (does not affect bosses), Reflex (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier) negates. This damage scales with 200% Ranged Power.

Thunderstone: Cooldown: 12 seconds. Spell Resistance: No
Alchemical Trap Attack: Throws an alchemical charge at your enemy. Deals 4d6/6d6/8d6 sonic damage and dazes in an area. Fort DC (12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier) Negates daze. The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power.
Note: The daze does not work correctly, targets hit by the daze effect can still move and attack, yet are vulnerable to sneak attacks.)
Bug: Thunderstone actually blinds targets and damage does not scale with RP. DDO Forums



Ooze Flask: Cooldown: 12 seconds. Spell Resistance: No
Alchemical Trap Attack: You throw a flask at your enemy that contains concentrated grey ooze secretions. Deals 4d8/8d8/12d8 acid damage (scales with 200% Ranged Power), no save, and reduces the Armor Class and PRR of your opponent by 2/4/8 for 30 seconds, Fort DC 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier) negates.
Note: Appears to be subject to Spell Critical


so none of these scale with spell power .
ranged power + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier needed to increase damage.

Spell Critical

Increasing spell critical chance
Feats
Magical Training +5%
Mental Toughness +1%
Improved Mental Toughness +1%
Epic Mental Toughness +1%
Energy Criticals 3% each up to 9%
Chaos Domain 3%


they can be effective if you pay for their effectiveness, in ap points to increase those things needed to make them stronger.

[KoobTheProud]

With high enough DC's the alchemical traps in the Mechanic tree are worth something against the possibly 2 or 3 spawns an instance that are not 5 to 8 mobs deep.

The overall conversation is a 2015-level conversation before stealth was nerfed and the meta shifted to kill-locked doors and pack after pack after pack.

One of the best changes that SSG could make to the current game is to take all the kill-locked doors and turn them into defenders-disabled doors. That would partially revive stealth and it would make solo non-caster CC meaningful again.

[Tuxedoman96]

Tanglefoot: Cooldown: 30 seconds. Spell Resistance: No
Alchemical Trap Activate: Throws a flask of caustic liquid at your enemy, which explodes into a sticky mess. Enemies caught within by the goo puddle take: 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds, Reflex DC (10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier) halves, and are slowed (does not affect bosses), Reflex (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier) negates. This damage scales with 200% Ranged Power.

Thunderstone: Cooldown: 12 seconds. Spell Resistance: No
Alchemical Trap Attack: Throws an alchemical charge at your enemy. Deals 4d6/6d6/8d6 sonic damage and dazes in an area. Fort DC (12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier) Negates daze. The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power.
Note: The daze does not work correctly, targets hit by the daze effect can still move and attack, yet are vulnerable to sneak attacks.)
Bug: Thunderstone actually blinds targets and damage does not scale with RP. DDO Forums



Ooze Flask: Cooldown: 12 seconds. Spell Resistance: No
Alchemical Trap Attack: You throw a flask at your enemy that contains concentrated grey ooze secretions. Deals 4d8/8d8/12d8 acid damage (scales with 200% Ranged Power), no save, and reduces the Armor Class and PRR of your opponent by 2/4/8 for 30 seconds, Fort DC 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier) negates.
Note: Appears to be subject to Spell Critical


so none of these scale with spell power .
ranged power + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier needed to increase damage.

Spell Critical

Increasing spell critical chance
Feats
Magical Training +5%
Mental Toughness +1%
Improved Mental Toughness +1%
Epic Mental Toughness +1%
Energy Criticals 3% each up to 9%
Chaos Domain 3%


they can be effective if you pay for their effectiveness, in ap points to increase those things needed to make them stronger.

Actually, last I tested, the acid traps scaled with ranged power and spell power and the sonic one scaled with spell power (which are both bugs). They might have been fixed, but considering the lack of relative killing power, this is unlikely. Of course you're free to test them yourself, since it's really easy to test.

[Ddealti]

Reviewing the Mechanic Enhancements and was wondering if the Alchemical Traps are worth the AP investment? Rogue doesn't really have any crowd control and thought they might be worth trying... so, does anyone have experience with them (or Trapbuilding in general) that can enlighten me? I usually just splash Rogue into my Rangers, but eventually I want to run a pure Rogue Mechanic with Great Crossbows.

Thank you in advance!

I am only a few months into the game (5/4 Rogue/Wizard), and my situation makes me run solo, so I don't have deep experience and I don't know how things work out at higher level, but I am loving Thunderstone and Tanglefoot.

When facing a small cluster (4-8) of monsters, or popping a doorway, I will sneak up and combo Tanglefoot, then Thunderstone, an then follow that up with Scorch.

Tanglefoot starts them melting(4d6 every 2 seconds for ???), and I can often just run away and it will kill them off in a few rounds. But, if I can't run, like in a doorway, I follow TF with Thunderstone 8d6, and that usually blows them all up, and can leave them blinded if they survive. Then 20 some damage from Scorch, finishes a lot of them off. Now I am just doing clean up with TWF and poisoned dual short swords, getting Backstab if they are blinded. So far have made it to Trolls and Ogres, and have yet to have a problem.

Just finished Sorrowdusk Isle, so still a puppy, and don't see how they will scale to the hundreds of hit points I understand that casters get with their AoE.

I hope this helps.

[Xgya]

I am only a few months into the game (5/4 Rogue/Wizard), and my situation makes me run solo, so I don't have deep experience and I don't know how things work out at higher level, but I am loving Thunderstone and Tanglefoot.

When facing a small cluster (4-8) of monsters, or popping a doorway, I will sneak up and combo Tanglefoot, then Thunderstone, an then follow that up with Scorch.

One thing I'll say about Tanglefoot is its ability to bypass barriers. Toss it at a wall or door which you know has enemies hiding on the other side, and it does the trick.
Melting enemies while they struggle at opening a door might take a bit, but it sure feels safer than being on the other side of that door XD

[Tuxedoman96]

Reviewing the Mechanic Enhancements and was wondering if the Alchemical Traps are worth the AP investment? Rogue doesn't really have any crowd control and thought they might be worth trying... so, does anyone have experience with them (or Trapbuilding in general) that can enlighten me? I usually just splash Rogue into my Rangers, but eventually I want to run a pure Rogue Mechanic with Great Crossbows.

Thank you in advance!

Personally I prefer thunderstone to the other cc alchemical traps. The other ones slow you down too much imo without getting cast on the run (which does affect them). You can start off with a tanglefoot to slow monsters down, but considering the cooldown on it, I think that you're only gonna be able to kill one or two monsters while that slow is going on later on. Time bomb puts a bomb that knocks down enemies at your feet, which is nice for melee I suppose but way too much of an investment for that. If you're ranged I wouldn't go for time bomb, as like the other options it slows you down (and you'd want to stay mobile when you're ranged). Even though on a cc alchemical trap, ooze flask is a nice damage boost for the party. Since most monsters don't have prr, you essentially add prr reduction as a straight %bonus to damage.
The traps you can make with trapmaking are more strategic in nature compared to the tactically-utilized alchemical traps. I'd definitely advocate for persistent AoE CC magical traps as someone else mentioned, because you can keep running them through them. So this would be {grease, glitterdust, hypnotic pattern, web}. Glitterdust + web and glitterdust + grease are nice combos because you make stationary blind targets, which is every rogue's dream. Hypnotic pattern is okay, but unfortunately breaks upon damage. There are also some really nice situational traps like deep slumber and halt undead. Halt undead works with no save on mindless undead and makes such undead helpless (although tactically it would be better to just scroll-cast it). Deep slumber is nice because it's a magical sleep, which means monsters won't wake up from noise. If you induce a group of monsters to sleep, you can pick them off one by one or just waltz on past them with the rest of the party, so it can have utility both for solo stealth or group play if the group isn't just bulldozing through monsters.

[Saekee]

posted this in 2017 so not sure if still true, probably; glitterdust will blind reapers (INT mechanic splash here in picture):

[Kutalp]

They re worth it only for a full Intelligence and pure or allmost pure Rogue.

(Yeah Harper is required and not only Rogue sigh...)



Vistani (Yes not a Rogue tree...sigh) Fan of Blades, Whirlwind attack (requires three feats) adds alot combined with them. Both work with character and stat to hit, blades scale with character, whirl scales with W base (Acrobat is a max Dex build so its special aoe attacks require max dex and max rogue level)


Another example is, Wizard multiclass has got the option to blend various Acrobat/Mech specialties to use Sleetstorm more effectively. Sleetstorm doesnt deal damage however, slows and blinds with no save. Rogue can stay in the middle safe unless opponents are out of the storm and using ranged and bolt spells.

Summon/Companion, distraction abilites gives the Mechanic the opportunity to apply the alchemical traps more precisely.

Flaming sphere spell or items also helps at that.



Just saying, It would be great if developers added Inteligence to hit and damage and all those listed above to Rogue and Mechanic repertoire.

(for anyone who refuses to play as Mr Roboto)