Why no Evil characters?

[Coffey]

"The Prince and the Discourses"

"And thus the desire of liberty caused one party to raise themselves in proportion as they oppressed the other. And it is the course of such movements that men in attempting to avoid fear themselves give others a cause to fear or for fear and the injuries which they ward off from themselves they inflict upon others as though they were a necessity to oppress or to be oppressed. In this we see one of the modes in which Republics are brought to ruin and how men rise from one ambition to another and we recognize the truth of the sentence which Sallust put into the mouth of Caesar, That all evil examples have their origin in good beginnings.

I know it isnt from a D&D manual but it is relevant.

[Oxarhamar]

The counter-argument would be that the premise for the world "we" inhabit is that "humanity" (inc all "civilized" races) is at war (perhaps undeclared, but mutually understood) with "monster" races. Many "monster races" are not portrayed as having anything like "civilians" - any and every member is a (potential) combatant. No such thing as a "peaceful" monster or civilization, or member of same, even if they are not currently engaged in acts of war at the moment.

Having a hobgoblin city under your feet is a "bad thing", its very presence is a threat to life. And if someone is going to die, better theirs than ours. (Any "spoils of war" are simply culturally accepted at that point, something that has been traditional IRL for millenia.)

Or so the prevalent world-view would tell us. The fact that War is Hell, for all concerned, does not contradict a "heroic" waging of such - in that context.


"Evil" characters would as easily side with the others (or perhaps even more readily do so), and feel zero loyalty/affinity to their "home" culture/civilization, so it becomes a coin toss which side they would be on. That is a pretty standard definition of "evil".

Are you sure those hobgoblin under feet aren’t just going about their dailies and the threat to life if you invasion of their home test which they then defend could they be protecting the overladers from a threat underground than the a great beast or purhaps protecting a womderous beasts from the world which would hunt them and wear their fine furs

[cdbd3rd]

....How many [groups] rescued all the captives in "Sacrifices"? Or did they leave the majority, rescuing only the Mayor's daughter? After all, that's all you're being paid for. Did they murder every other sentient creature in the dungeon? Who will feed these captives now?....

[Tyrande]

LOL, we are all self-centered, loot goal oriented, lazy, path of minimal optimization ... evil tendencies adventurers.

How many adventurers with tabaxi speed *and/or* wings actually leave all the monsters behind and get to the end to just kill the end boss and loot the end chest?

How many adventurers actually save ALL drow slaves in the MoTU underdark chain?

Here is an idea:

1. Developers implement a hidden karma attribute: Every time an adventurer did something extra out of the kindness of their heart with or without XP gets extra karma.
2. Developers implement a hidden karma extra luck: Every time the adventurer would encounter a critical hit or a spell, an the karma is added to the defensive roll/ or save(s) (for spell) to avoid the critical hit or spell damage.
3. Since karma is invisible and not on the character sheet, adventurers may speculate whether the luck attribute from their karma actually affects the chance of getting named loot.
4. Adventurers with negative karma gets more reapers in their dungeons. Ways to get negative karma: skip all optionals in the chain for fastest completion. No roleplay in a RPG.

[Oxarhamar]

LOL, we are all self-centered, loot goal oriented, lazy, path of minimal optimization ... evil tendencies adventurers.

How many adventurers with tabaxi speed *and/or* wings actually leave all the monsters behind and get to the end to just kill the end boss and loot the end chest?

How many adventurers actually save ALL drow slaves in the MoTU underdark chain?

Here is an idea:

1. Developers implement a hidden karma attribute: Every time an adventurer did something extra out of the kindness of their heart with or without XP gets extra karma.
2. Developers implement a hidden karma extra luck: Every time the adventurer would encounter a critical hit or a spell, an the karma is added to the defensive roll/ or save(s) (for spell) to avoid the critical hit or spell damage.
3. Since karma is invisible and not on the character sheet, adventurers may speculate whether the luck attribute from their karma actually affects the chance of getting named loot.
4. Adventurers with negative karma gets more reapers in their dungeons. Ways to get negative karma: skip all optionals in the chain for fastest completion. No roleplay in a RPG.

Having just run a free captives quest last night my thoughts are

Opening the door to the chamber they are imprisoned in should be enough to free them there really isn’t any purpose for making us talk to every single captive

Example in Sorrowdusk you have to free the Orges but you have to unlock the door then talk to them

If they can’t figure out they have been freed with the door opened and the guards corpses laying about then IDK

It’s quite silly

[Tyrande]

Having just run a free captives quest last night my thoughts are

Opening the door to the chamber they are imprisoned in should be enough to free them there really isn’t any purpose for making us talk to every single captive

Example in Sorrowdusk you have to free the Orges but you have to unlock the door then talk to them

If they can’t figure out they have been freed with the door opened and the guards corpses laying about then IDK

It’s quite silly

I know its quite silly. But think of it from the scripting perspective, not from common sense. Where do you put the callbacks to have the prisoner run when its not talked to?

The script(s) would have to run consistently in the background after the callbacks for the door opening is active to check if there are any guard corpses laying around, adding to performance hit, i.e. lag.

[carsonfball]

in part b/c many of the DDO quests kinda assume a non-evil protagonist for the backstories to work.

True, but there is at least one where it would almost imply your characters were evil: Purge the Heretics

You are sent to kill followers of a good-aligned pantheon (the Sovereign Host).

[carsonfball]

And you want to further divide it by adding incompatible alignments.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that evil alignments should be added to the game. However, I don't think having a party with mixed alignments is incompatible. Back when 2nd Edition was the most up-to-date version, I played a LE Cleric/Wizard and we had an LG Paladin in the party. The party, for the most part, worked okay because we all had similar short-term an mid-term goals (i.e. stopping the threat to the world).

[Uska]

1. Supposed to be heroes
2. Takes an excuse away from grieving I’m just following my alignment
3. Takes ammo from people who attack games like this

[Uska]

KOTOR has Sith, last time I checked they are evil. Same rating as DDO.

Different company different rules

[Uska]

Hi there OP, I was one of the original beta testers in January 2006.
Attached in the screenshot:

Screenshot 2022-12-04 155619.jpg

However, I do have an idea last night while sleeping, dreaming:

What if for those people with hundreds of DDO reaper points... why not let them do something except twisting their fingers?

They can have alternative XP progression as in monster XP like in LoTRO:

For total monster XP in 0 -> say 1 million, they get to be playing a kobold.

the progression is perhaps every 1 million monster XP, they get to upgrade?

1. Kobold (melee with clubs) -> Kobold Commandoes (that uses alchemist fire and range attacks) -> Kobold Shaman (spells)
2. Ogre (melee with clubs) -> Ogre Ninjas (the ones that disappear as in Redwillow Ruins) -> Ogre Magi (casters)
3. Yuan-ti (melee with spears) -> Medusa -> Marilith (with 6 khopeshes like the Demon Queen)
4. Hill Giant (melee with great clubs) -> Fire Giant -> Storm Giant
5. Beholder -> Chaos Beholder -> Doomsphere
6. Baby Red Dragon -> Baby White Dragon -> Baby Blue Dragon
7. Mature Red Dragon -> Mature White Dragon -> Mature Blue Dragon

So to get a play a Blue Dragon, that is 7x3 - 1 = 20+ million monster XP required.

Sounds Cool? Of course to unlock these they need a character with <developer determined> number of reapear points. They could also merchandize this and sell the higher options in the store or sell monster XP elixirs... or just make regular XP elixirs work. These monsters can have evil alignments. They will not join the Stormreach (or Forgotten Realms) heroes in fighting, but will be fighting on the monsters team against these heroes.

Upon wiping the party (i.e. hero's party cannot complete dungeon), monster will deem defended the dungeon and will be rewarded with monster loot and monster XP.

However, to do this, they must convert one character with those <X> reaper points to a monster; and loose all reaper points and all past lives, since monsters do not have such things.

They can join any party in progress at random, and that party will be make aware of a "smarter" than normal champion monster. That attached party will gain increase XP upon completion of the dungeon, as determined by the developers; if the monster player failed to stop the party from completion.

Sounds like a cool idea?
The drawbacks of this idea is that the monster player cannot solo. They must join a party in progress.

1. Doesn’t sound cool
2. Too complicated

[carsonfball]

4. Adventurers with negative karma gets more reapers in their dungeons. Ways to get negative karma: skip all optionals in the chain for fastest completion. No roleplay in a RPG.

How would that work in a party? Based on party leader, average karma of the group at the time the instance was created, something else?

[Tyrande]

How would that work in a party? Based on party leader, average karma of the group at the time the instance was created, something else?

I supposed it can be the average karma of the group whenever someone entered the instance.

[Tyrande]

1. Doesn’t sound cool
2. Too complicated

Why not? It will be fun for people to play as monsters rather than have them sitting at 156+ RP doing nothing and thinking the game is getting easier everyday.

Complicated? Maybe. But remember LoTRO already has this implemented, so SSG already have the experience in implementing monster play.

[Martininice]

Why not? It will be fun for people to play as monsters rather than have them sitting at 156+ RP doing nothing and thinking the game is getting easier everyday.

Complicated? Maybe. But remember LoTRO already has this implemented, so SSG already have the experience in implementing monster play.

you really have to ask? Because the world should have stopped turning in 1974...

[Gljosh]

Well, we do have the option sometimes to "kill" or subdue enemies.

Plus, it's not like we have any quests were we "murder" innocent people attending a church service.

[Tyrande]

you really have to ask? Because the world should have stopped turning in 1974...

Let's see, 1974: Resignation of US President Nixon due to Watergate scandal. Resignation of Isreali prime minister. Invasion and occupation of Northern Cyprus by Turkish troops. Huge Inflation of oil prices. Huge stock market downfall.

In 2022: Major inflation of oil prices and commodity items. Invasion and occupation of parts of Ukraine by Russian troops. Drops in the stock market. The queen of England/UK died. There is a possibility of a 3rd world war as China aggressively seeking Taiwan.

What else is new?

The world is turning on its own axis and rotating around the Sun, that we know.

Also, what does the world turning have anything to do with how we can or cannot play monsters in Dungeons and Dragons Online?

[C-Dog]

The fact aside that you have entirely missed the premise of Eberron as a setting...

Real life in this example is a poor analogy.

Not using RL as an analogy, but as a counter point. And there are always exceptions to a general rule - being "at war" with a group does not preclude peaceful or friendly members of that group. Nor mercenary relationships, which seem to be an accepted exception in Eberron.

I am sorry to be the first to tell you that acting condescending when you're missing an obvious point is a bad look on you.

[DRoark]

Love that Epic NPC series. On an Evil note, the Assassin in my campaign killed the entire party with ingested poison (even setting up a fake rescue and "thank-you" feast). Only the Barbarian
survived, having enough HPs to soak the damage ... later on he shanked the above Barbarian while sleeping, since nobody else was left alive to stand watch. That same Assassin's now under
a new disguise, grouped with the players backup characters. Who's the real monster? ))

[misterski]

I think the wrong question is being asked. We already know why evil characters aren't allowed: because the devs said no. All other reasons (however accurate they may or may not be) are superfluous. The real question that should be asked is why evil characters should be allowed. The DM has spoken and now you have to convince them otherwise. Be convincing or you'll just have to live with the rules of the campaign or not play.