A Conversation Concerning Player Power

[slarden]

No, hardcore is not a metric that can be used in any meaningful way to determine class power. The entire premise of hardcore is survival since one death = game over.

People build different for hardcore for that very reason. In the normal game, death means nothing.

Thats why you cannot use hardcore for a metric.

Hardcore is an important metric because it represents players starting out with 0 rxp, 0 past lifes and for the most part no tomes.

How I build is greatly impacted by how much extra power my character has.

Last season I focused mostly on ftp accounts and played casting, melee and ranged builds to 20+. Casters are definitely weaker on the journey to 20 although they are still useful in groups. My bow ranger probably had better single-target dps than my paladin, but paladin was still overall the best character with higher hp, prr, mrr. Casters improve quite a bit once you get to 12 and the ability to pick people off with instakill + cc is very powerful for groups at higher heroic levels. I love artificer on a first-lifer, but that wasn't an option on my ftp accounts on hardcore as my favor rewards don't transfer over.

Once you get to 20 casters improve significantly on hardcore with the ED system and it's not super hard to buff up defenses with a shield and splash in unyielding sentinel. There is enough low-hanging fruit that once you get to 23 it feels really good playing a caster.

Since last hardcore season melee hp has increased and the most common casters (fvs) had hp nerfed. Some spellcasting was nerfed during the season.

Spellsingers are probably the strongest caster right now for heroic leveling, but not exactly a defensive powerhouse. I expect to see quite a few spellsingers on hardcore.

What people build on hardcore for season VII matters. It's certainly not the only metric, but it is still useful info that shouldn't be ignored.

Current casters are not overpowered

It's a mixed bag right now. Sorc and Alchemists can bypass immunities which is really too powerful and takes alot of the art out of playing a caster. The ability to swap on a shield and get big defenses with a small US splash is probably too good - your dps sucks with a shield as a melee.

Spellsinger slas are really good - I mean it's definitely a heroic easy-button right now. And it scales really well to 32 so it's not just a heroic build.

Wizard and Warlock lag behind but do well 20+ because the epic destiny really works well for casters in general. My warlock dps is almost entirely epic spells and abilities. Still if you compare that to melees lagging behind - handwrap monks - and it's no comparison. You can't fix monk with epic destinies the way you can fix wizard and warlock. I am very happy with my assassin and don't in any way feel weak, but the ED system left many assassins sad, especially solo players that lost alot of mob control abilities.

To the extent there are adjustments it should be very targeted and not overall caster nerfs. Major nerfs aren't what's needed. The main problem is that people don't value the high single-target dps as much as they value aoe damage. Alot of that has to do with recent quest design which is pack of mob after pack of mob.

[LavidDynch]

Yep imbue distribution is going to be a problem I don’t even think 22 dice is high


it will likely be op for certain builds then the nerf with nerf imbue for everyone

Dmg is circular. I got 2 very similar maxed decked out toons. one got 14 the other 21. guess which one is doing more imbue dmg? (and it´s close!)

With that said, I have no idea how extreme imbue builds are performing, my guess would be: not that great to the alternative.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Hardcore is an important metric because it represents players starting out with 0 rxp, 0 past lifes and for the most part no tomes.

I don't take this as valid, because, as the saying goes, "an experienced player can even make a bad class / bad build shine" : Exparience. And hardcore players have tons of that. Which *greatly* distinguishes them from new or casual players.

Therefore, I do not consider "hardcore as an important metric", because it doesn't count in the tons of experience jardcore players have.
Even worse, to say "hardcore is an important metric" makes the barries against new and casual players even bigger and higher. The already closed circle of hardcore players becomes even more closed, so to say.




But, why do I write this ? I have experienced that hardcore players (which, for me, includes Reaper & end game players) don't care much for new / inexperinced / casual players.
Therefore, I have given up writing in these forums months ago. There are never changes coming from the "most important" group of DDO : I never see anyone write pro new / inexperienced / casual players. Apparingly, no-one wants to. All I see in these forums are hardcore players discussing hardcore and nothing else. Closed circles.

[jskinner937]

I don't take this as valid, because, as the saying goes, "an experienced player can even make a bad class / bad build shine" : Exparience. And hardcore players have tons of that. Which *greatly* distinguishes them from new or casual players.

Therefore, I do not consider "hardcore as an important metric", because it doesn't count in the tons of experience jardcore players have.
Even worse, to say "hardcore is an important metric" makes the barries against new and casual players even bigger and higher. The already closed circle of hardcore players becomes even more closed, so to say.




But, why do I write this ? I have experienced that hardcore players (which, for me, includes Reaper & end game players) don't care much for new / inexperinced / casual players.
Therefore, I have given up writing in these forums months ago. There are never changes coming from the "most important" group of DDO : I never see anyone write pro new / inexperienced / casual players. Apparingly, no-one wants to. All I see in these forums are hardcore players discussing hardcore and nothing else. Closed circles.

I would say you have selective reading then. There are 2 reaper conversation currently ongoing that address new/casuals right now. And I would say there are probably more, than less that advocate less power creep.

[sturmbb]

This is your opinion. Repeating it doesn't make it true based on the data we have and what people play. Current casters are not overpowered - that is not an opinion based on the data we have. Sorcerer and Alchemist are the two least played classes on hardcore. There is empirical data that proves this. The most played casting class on hardcore, Favored Soul, just underwent multiple nerfs. It was glaringly obvious that the FVS was overperforming on hardcore. And while I think the nerfs to FVS have gone too far, it is becoming increasingly clear that the Devs might be balancing classes based on hardcore. I can't say that I blame them - it is the purest measurement of classes without past lives and reaper points muddying the waters and, as I've said, hardcore is now 50% of the game calendar. A sorcerer is actually a well-balanced class - you have excellent AOE DPS but poor survivability. Lots of past lives and reaper points can mitigate some of the weaknesses of the class, but the class itself, on an equal footing, is perfectly balanced with other classes, perhaps even a bit weaker (though they did get a slight HP buff recently) so we will see if that changes the play metrics in this upcoming hardcore season.

I completely agree with this.

The Class i love playing the most is Sorcerer (i have played other classes, but sorcerer is the class i have the most fun with). I would be tempted to say that if sorcerer wasn't a class in this game i probably would have abandoned the game years ago. The other thing i love about this game is Hardcore.

I was absolutely overjoyed to hear Season 7 is starting soon. I have played in all seasons and achieved some of the rewards. The first 2 seasons i stubbornly played sorcerer and had countless deaths. In the end by season 3 i decided i had to face reality and stop playing sorcerer on Hardcore when going for rewards. I still love Hardcore, but as in life you have to adapt to the situation at hand.

I truly believe the best way to balance classes is using Hardcore as a template. How can you use live to balance classes when everyone is running around with multiple past lives and 100's of reaper points. By using Hardcore to balance classes you truly get a good idea how each class performs. Also on Live death means nothing were as on Hardcore Death means everything. So using Hardcore to balance classes is the definitely the best way to go. I think Sorcerer is a great example of this there DPS is absolutely amazing (which is why i love playing the class) but are extremely squishy. I think sorcerers are balanced fantastically. I still play sorcerer on Hardcore but only for enjoyment. When i am aiming for the rewards i pick other classes which have a better chance of achieving the rewards i am after.

[slarden]

I don't take this as valid, because, as the saying goes, "an experienced player can even make a bad class / bad build shine" : Exparience. And hardcore players have tons of that. Which *greatly* distinguishes them from new or casual players.

Therefore, I do not consider "hardcore as an important metric", because it doesn't count in the tons of experience jardcore players have.
Even worse, to say "hardcore is an important metric" makes the barries against new and casual players even bigger and higher. The already closed circle of hardcore players becomes even more closed, so to say.




But, why do I write this ? I have experienced that hardcore players (which, for me, includes Reaper & end game players) don't care much for new / inexperinced / casual players.
Therefore, I have given up writing in these forums months ago. There are never changes coming from the "most important" group of DDO : I never see anyone write pro new / inexperienced / casual players. Apparingly, no-one wants to. All I see in these forums are hardcore players discussing hardcore and nothing else. Closed circles.

This is even a bigger reason to use hardcore as a metric, but certainly not the only metric. If people that are experienced and can make a bad build shine largely aren't choosing caster on hardcore, it obviously shows what people have been saying for years. Casters get good with a significant investment and they are less good without that investment. Now I think sorc and alchemist are still great for reasons I mentioned earlier - primarily the combo of immunity stripping, slas and in the case of sorc spell point pool. However, the fact that experienced players that know how to make a build shine aren't choosing them in large #s is telling and a good data point. Imagine how much harder it would be for a new player to make that build work. Spellsingers are top dog leveling casters so it will be interesting to see how the #s are on hardcore.

[Kelledren]

My main points are that:


2) SSG changed the game to make players weaker because they discovered strong builds.

.

When did this happen? Are you talking about random individual build nerfs that occur almost every update now or are you talking about the stat squish?

One I will agree with you, the other I would strongly argue that actually the opposite occurred.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Alot of that has to do with recent quest design which is pack of mob after pack of mob.

This is such a key point. A lot of quest design with tightly packed mobs rushing straight at PCs plays right into AOE caster's strengths so it makes them appear stronger. If the vast majority of modern quests weren't designed this way then AOE wouldn't be so S tier.

I also concur with Sturm, the sorcerer is perhaps my favorite class and I almost never play it on hardcore as the tradeoffs are too severe. I played a casting warlock deep into hardcore last season but the entire way I felt squishy and lacking defenses and that eventually caught up to the character. I feel like players who think AOE casters are overpowered should try them on hardcore and report back their experience and if it has changed their opinion.

[KoobTheProud]

The other key thing about player power levels relates to sense of accomplishment. If a player gets a sense of accomplishment after a fight and a quest they are likely to keep playing the game. Lining up mobs like bowling pins and then giving players a guaranteed strike feeds both the fight and the quest accomplishment since the guaranteed strike mows down each fight and the quest is completed fairly quickly in a series of strikes. However over time the sense of accomplishment a player derives from repeatedly mowing down mobs with perfect strikes tends to decline.

The next sense of accomplishment experience is in the reincarnation train as the player's power grows over time letting them address higher levels of difficulty with similar effect. This bigger wheel allows the smaller wheel of perfect strike vs bowling pins to stay relevant even as the actual sense of accomplishment associated with the smaller wheel declines. If the changes allowed by the reincarnation train let a player try new attempts at perfect strike mechanisms vs the same bowling pins the smaller wheel maintains some value but if it's just the same perfect strike against bigger bowling pins the sense of accomplishment will tend to decline.

The answer is probably to significantly vary the bowling pins such that perfect strikes are hard to develop and maintain and the strikes themselves lose power over time as the player progresses. This would allow the player to be in a constant search for the next perfect strike and likely to retain a larger sense of accomplishment even as their increasing power level would otherwise diminish it.

TLDR; just throwing new power at players is unlikely to do much for long. You need to vary the challenges such that the player feels a continual sense of accomplishment when they best them.

[AbyssalMage]

Hard disagree.

If there are 10,000 builds and 10 builds overperform to the point where the other 9,990 builds are basically pointless in comparison, would you honestly suggest to take the time to buff those 9,990 completely different builds to bring them on the level of those 10 and then completely rebalance all content to compensate for the severely increased power levels?, or simply rein in those 10 overperforming builds?

There are multiple problems with your analysis.

First, there are over 10,000+ builds thanks to Race, Enhancements, and Classes. If "10 builds over perform" that should be expected because there is an inverse of '10 builds that sub perform.' Which would leave over '9k builds in the middle.' Every time there is a "rebalance" as you put it, 'the next set of 10 builds' will simple replace the previous 10 that were just nerfed. As a player who has been around through 3x regimes now (has it really been that many?), and some players who have been around for more, we can all attest that they never "reign" in the player base in finding the next 'Flavor of the month."

The choice should be obvious.

Second, as I just showed above the "Choice" is not "Obvious" because there is no discernible problem. If it is a 'coding' error like "The Batman Build" from an era before my playtime then it is less of a nerf and an actual fix.

Weakening (i.e. nerfing) a class because it performs well is poor game design. Actually, "Weakening" a class so that you can sell a different class is greed. The player base finds the next build to play. Those players who enjoyed their previous build are left upset and angry. And the cycle of the developers "reigning" in the next crop of builds begins anew. It is a 'cat and mouse game' which leads to the attrition of players.

Are nerfs always the right answer, ofc not! But they have a very valid place in game balance and prevents a PvE arms race where both sides are simply buffed into oblivion to the point where we get 1000% more damage multipliers on sets like in D3.

Nerfs are never the correct answer. And after 10+ years I find it funny that any player would talk about "balance" because the game (i.e. DDO) has never seen balance while I have played. I have seen multiple builds (i.e. hundreds, if not thousands /shrug) be nerfed in the name of "balance" though. I've seen "new" game elements brought in to help "balance" the game that backfired spectacularly in the developers faces.

The opposite is actually true. They need to identify the weakest races, enhancements, and classes and buff them. Not overnight, but slowly over multiple patches, and allow players to discover what synergies well with each other.

[Monkey_Archer]

This thread hurts my brain...

1. ~20% of the population plays hardcore less than 50% of the time. That's less than 10% of DDO. Any attempt to draw balance conclusions form such a small percentage of the game is asinine. In a niche game mode where death is game over, the best you could hope to do is to first only consider classes with built in survivability, then combine both popularity and leaderboard success, then maybe you could justify a small nerf to (fvs) based on that. This is still a huge stretch though... Its about as accurate to consider hardcore participants as it is to consider lammania participants. Half of lammania just hits the dps kobolds... Are we just going to nerf whoever does the most single target dps and ignore all other factors?
2. Popularity has almost nothing to do with character power. Class popularity is more correlated with accessibility (ie FTP), being simple and easy to learn/play, having an important group role (clerics), being fun, having cross-game recognition (paladins), and then way at the end of that list is how powerful they might be. I could design a class (lets call it nuclear bomb engineer) that instantly clears the entire dungeon if you correctly input 100 unique button presses in a particular order with sensitivity to timing. If you fail this combination your character dies instead. This would not be a popular class except among extremely talented players (or people with macros) but it would absolutely be overpowered. (not to mention stupid and game breaking). "Nuclear bomb engineers are not popular, therefore dont nerf"
3. Playing badly does not make your class balanced. I don't like making so-called "elitist" arguments, but in this case its warranted. You literally cannot make balance judgements on something you aren't using correctly or haven't learned yet (or at the very least observed others who can play it well and understand why). That's like hitting a nail with a screwdriver and concluding that hammers are overpowered. You're completely missing the point.

/rant aside:

This biggest balance issue in DDO right now has nothing to do with any class at all. Its that player powercreep has vastly exceeded monster stat lines.

How this gets solved is not important to me. You could double the hp of all monsters, or add new r11+ difficulties, or invent an entirely new game mode to succeed reaper mode, or nerf AOE builds, or something different entirely.

[KoobTheProud]

This biggest balance issue in DDO right now has nothing to do with any class at all. Its that player powercreep has vastly exceeded monster stat lines.

How this gets solved is not important to me. You could double the hp of all monsters, or add new r11+ difficulties, or invent an entirely new game mode to succeed reaper mode, or nerf AOE builds, or something different entirely.

This is a hard fix at this point because unlike most MMO's that do major stat/level crunches SSG has flatout SOLD a lot of that power to the players in terms of XP pots and boxes and numerous other P2W mechanics over the years. We got a stat crunch on items recently anyway and there are many nerfs that occur on a regular basis. It's hard to see how SSG could do more in terms of restraining power creep without having a consumer revolt against the company and the game.

My take on what would have worked better is a significant reward system behind genuinely hard content that offered a strong sense of accomplishment upon completion.

What we got instead was a great race with many factors offered, mostly for money, to speed up the race for those who paid to do so.

So DDO2 if it ever came out would do well to make the game fun first, then challenging and finally maybe a bit grindy but not too grindy. DDO can't suddenly revert because the customer base would be outraged at theft of acquisitions.

[Monkey_Archer]

This is a hard fix at this point because unlike most MMO's that do major stat/level crunches SSG has flatout SOLD a lot of that power to the players in terms of XP pots and boxes and numerous other P2W mechanics over the years. We got a stat crunch on items recently anyway and there are many nerfs that occur on a regular basis. It's hard to see how SSG could do more in terms of restraining power creep without having a consumer revolt against the company and the game.

This is generally why I favor small targeted nerfs and r11+.

There's no need to use a sledge hammer with how the game is balanced currently. A few small heroic spell power nerfs and possibly endgame crit nerfs could go a long way without destroying builds.

r11+ essentially takes zero developer effort, so I don't know why this isn't a thing yet.

[Martininice]

I don't take this as valid, because, as the saying goes, "an experienced player can even make a bad class / bad build shine" : Exparience. And hardcore players have tons of that. Which *greatly* distinguishes them from new or casual players.

Therefore, I do not consider "hardcore as an important metric", because it doesn't count in the tons of experience jardcore players have.
Even worse, to say "hardcore is an important metric" makes the barries against new and casual players even bigger and higher. The already closed circle of hardcore players becomes even more closed, so to say.




But, why do I write this ? I have experienced that hardcore players (which, for me, includes Reaper & end game players) don't care much for new / inexperinced / casual players.
Therefore, I have given up writing in these forums months ago. There are never changes coming from the "most important" group of DDO : I never see anyone write pro new / inexperienced / casual players. Apparingly, no-one wants to. All I see in these forums are hardcore players discussing hardcore and nothing else. Closed circles.

and are you starting these conversations? Cause all I ever see of you are complaints and moaning.

[ivorycoaster]

I agree, for a long time now SSG has created op classes, trees etc to sell such to the players so they can make money. Then, after a year or less, they nerf them. I've always said that this is bait and switch and shouldn't be allowed but they still get away with it. Just waiting for the imbue dice system to be nerfed.. some get 22 dice, really?

my EK has 30 dice, and it is not overpowered. that's hovering over 1k elec spellpower. you could remove immunity from the game completely and it'd still not be overpowered. it's very good, but its a racial completionist with a VERY carefully crafted gear set. it still won't compete with a good sorc, alch or druid in kill count.

an inquis can get 35 dice with ease, and that toon with shiradi mantle will be WAY overtuned. and the imbue dice don't have to deal with immunity. they also scale on the same thing as their attack damage and sneak dice. quite a different story..

[Bjond]

inquis can get 35 dice with ease, and that toon with shiradi mantle will be WAY overtuned

That INQ still can't compete with top thrower & bow builds at cap, but OMG is it strong sub-cap.

The problem with DDO isn't so much power creep as balance. I suspect SSG divided the archetypes up .. melee dev, ranged dev, caster dev because otherwise the current situation doesn't make much sense. What we've got is the melee dev is either fantastic or horrible and the ranged+caster devs are either horrible or fantastic. They really need to get on the same page, especially for risk versus effect and most particularly in higher reaper.

[KoobTheProud]

r11+ essentially takes zero developer effort, so I don't know why this isn't a thing yet.

To do r11+ they'd have to up the rewards and probably extend the reaper trees. That's work.

Really it's a closed-loop at this point because the sense of accomplishment players get by extending it is likely to be low.

Are we there yet? Yeah we arrived probably a year ago - two years at the outside.

Some would say we arrived the day the developers removed all the meaning from "You win DDO!" Vets will know what I am talking about.